A RealGM Scandal, and a Conversation about Projects

[SHAQ32]

The fact that it took this long to make out those two is scary. I've had them on ignore for at least a year. There's a couple of others but I'll let the mods figure it out.

[jalengreen]

Yeah I do think there are posts here taking this as a chance to complain about things that aren't particularly relevant. No idea of their involvement here but AE was a valuable poster and to what extent they were or were not complicit in project collusion doesn't change that. Not sure how the "era relativity vs not" debate is relevant here either, pretty sure AE/Ohayo/the alt accounts are era relativists though I could be mistaken

His participation in project collusion and instructing people how to better use fake profiles and returns is pretty relevant. Especially since he was already aggressively douchey and was more than fine with his buddy and the sock accounts attempts to push out people from the board by making them miserable here.

They were bad posters that used a lot of words. Nothing was lost.

The conversation hasn’t been limited to the project collusion. Talking about that is reasonable! Bringing up old arguments with these users that have nothing to do with project collusion or alt accounts is, in my opinion, overly expanding the horizon of this discussion.

The mods clearly did not care enough about them being “aggressively douchey” (see: they survived this long), so yeah, I don’t see it as relevant.

[jalengreen]

These people are obsessed. It would take an absurd post limit to keep them out. They’ll post nonsense for years with multiple accounts in prep for things like this. It’ll be hard to keep them out.

As for over moderating, people who are obviously pbp’s and just downright nasty to the point of driving away traffic should be dealt with swiftly. This group of moderators here have never attempted to steer discussion in a direction they want(aside from it being civil.)

Pretending people left because everyone disagrees with them is either straight up stupidity or ignorance. Again, the people telling us we’re leaving because we’re mad that people disagree us is insane. If you think this board was in lock step or singing kumbaya and agreeing for over 2 decades, it’s because you’re still new here. Don’t speak for the people that formed pillars of this community for decades before you were even involved.

When I was removed from the top 100 project I was advised that the decision was motivated in part by a veteran poster leaving because my views on older players like Mikan upset them, and that they had to 'take action' before more posters left. That pretty much convinced me that mods running projects was a bad idea, particularly when I contrast that to the more open and inclusive discussion in the 2 projects run by Enigma. Despite often being wildly unprofessional and abrasive, the project runner lacking mod powers seemed to lead to a better discussion. If the projects are continued, I would push strongly for a non-mod project runner.

There may be a variety of views on this forum among veterans, but if you are an outsider who isn't here to make friends, and who doesn't apologise profusely for daring to disagree, then my experience is that your views are not welcome here. My position is that if you are so upset by someone else's views on basketball that you quit a project then that's on you.

Is this about mod powers or just how you feel about the mindset of mods? Because removing you from a project the way you describe doesn’t have anything to do with mod powers, does it? AE could have done the same without them, if he so desired.

[Redmoon]

I think what getting lost in this discussion is just how deserving Ohayokd is of getting banned. This is a no-questions, cold-shut case. It’s honestly mind-boggling that the mods have allowed someone like this to operate freely in our forums, bullying anyone who doesn’t conform to their views. Just look at their interactions — there’s never any room for uncertainty or good-faith discussion. For the record, this person has:

1. Directly contributed to running off Squared2020 off the forums.
2. Been caught redhanded in using an alt account on HERE.
3. Been banned 2 times in the thinking basketball discord server (I'm in it) - the first time for telling someone to "kill themselves".
4. Shown they hardly care about basketball. Their sole goal seems to be tearing down Jordan in "rankings".
5. This crusade against Jordan is just a surface-level expression of a deeper hatred toward “boomers.”
6. The above starts to make more sense when you realize this person — and many of the new “posters” they’ve recruited — are high school-aged.
7. Tacitly admitted they would have loved to "run off" folks from realgm if mods would allow it. Frankly enjoys bullying people.
8. Displays numerous sociopathic tendencies and delusions of grandeur. Constant talk about “shifting the Overton window.” Just look at how Ohayokd celebrated their “win” in Peaks Thread #1 — it’d be funny if it weren’t so concerning.

Why do we need someone like this in here? I personally don't think Ohayokd brings anything of substance to the discussion. Most of the bron arguments he lays out has been made years ago (Not that I dont think they aren't strong bron has a great #1 peak case). The tracking projects they initiate lacks so much basketball context/ larger samples their conclusions off them are often outlandish and useless.

I have screenshots to prove the last few statements on their motivations and well, the only conclusion you can come to is that this person has been extremely harmful to this community and unfortunately will just move on to something else to the detriment of that place when they lose access to this "playground".

I would not argue if AE is banned as well - being consistently rude and condescending as draymondgold has outlined is bad enough, as well as enabling whats been going on and abusing their powers. Even if they do have good insights and contributions. But what ohayokd has been doing is on a completely different level. I hope everyone here understands this.

[migya]

This place hasn't been good like it was for a long time now and that is why I'm not present here much. A shame the standard has fallen and that attitudes are able to push away quality members.

[Top10alltime]

People have been talking about the alts since before the peaks project even started, kinda disingenuous to act like this popped up because of the result of the first vote tbh.

I can't recall anything like this when LeBron got ranked #1 in the 2020 top 100.

I'd like to see evidence posted but i cant really take the "ugh this is just because jordan lost!" takes seriously and I don't think they're really operating with honesty in mind here. Multiple people who didn't even have Jordan #1 (raises hand) felt that the activity was suspicious. Don't know about specifics and hopefully that's cleared up

we don't know since it has not been shared, but how many of the people who submitted "evidence" are fans of a certain player and are upset? One has already posted in this thread and there's another one who is liking post who was voicing disapproval about the project earlier when voting wasn't going a certain way since he supports that same player.

I mean, what do you exactly doubt?

The Discord server exists, I used to be there because OhayoKD invited me a long time ago. I didn't engage much and I left a few months ago, because for once, I don't have the time for Discord activity and secondly, it's a place where people are taught to become storytellers, which doesn't interest me at al.

The "conspiracy" is also true, at least to the degree that people created accounts to participate in the project and that the Discord is heavily against Jordan. I don't know which ones are legit human beings and which not, I suspect at least most of them are real. They might just agree with OhayoKD that Jordan doesn't deserve top place and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Another true thing is that OhayoKD had a "mission" to destroy "Jordan fraud" and create new narrative in basketball world. That's her words, paraphrased of course. I mean, that's her choice - I always found that delusional, but I don't think this alone is worth banning.

I don't know everything, because I just didn't care enough. I don't know if the alts thing is real, it very well may be. I don't know if the recruitment thing was only to find people who are willing to push Jordan from the top (which by itself isn't worth banning, although I am not sure if it's ethically correct to manipulate results that way) or if it has more manipulation process involved. I know that many people in that Discord channel are much younger than me (and I am not that old at 27), age by itself isn't an argument but younger people are easier to manipulate. Don't know if that happened though, so please do not quote me on that.

I actually like how the project went after 3rd thread. With Jordan and James in, it became a really good place to discuss someone else. I haven't voted, but I participated and it gave me a very pleasant time in the tough moment of my life. I don't know what to do with the project, I don't have any advices for Doc. He's the mod here and I trust him. I just hope that we will continue (or restart?) the project at some point.

As a newer poster here, I'd like to speak up for everyone else (especially since people here hate us after this )

Just because we don't agree that Jordan has the top spot, doesn't mean that we're here for nothing else. For tons and tons of years, that GOAT debate has been going on! And as you mentioned here, OhayoKD is one of the victims of that, and been pushing her favourite players. Let's think about this though, most people that talk about basketball are victims of this, aren't they? I suggest we diversify the number of talks, instead of it being just Jordan and Lebron.

Anyways, we're not here for that discussion. We joined because we want to talk actual basketball. Not just this repeated debate about Jordan vs Bron. And no, there haven't seemed to be any alts in the time, and again, we don't want to talk about Jordan vs Bron. Let's talk something different. These two basketball players stans is what's caused the problem, not us. The problem is we need to talk more about other players, and less about the other two.


And regarding the italics, I 100% agree. Like I've mentioned in my post, I'm not here to discuss about them (if anything we can move away from this topic, because it has RUINED basketball discussion). Let's start moving on to other players, and to everyone that is a stan of these players, don't be toxic people and ruin the discussion for everyone else. Again, talking about other players will be healthy for basketball discussion.

I also want to add something in the end. I don't know what evidences mods have and I don't have a clear picture because I left the Discord (which I rarely read) before the project started, but I don't think AEnigma participated in this fraud. I know he's on the Discord and at least he used to be very active there, but I have never seen him inviting new people and asking them for joining RealGM. I have many disagreements with AEnigma throughout our history here, but he's a valuable poster and I don't think he did anything wrong to influence the outcome of the project. I could be mistaken though, so it's just my opinion.

Actually, he was defending Jordan over Kareem against OhayoKD, and voted for him. I don't know why he should be banned, OhayoKD is fine, but I don't believe AEnigma should've been banned:

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/807803459331555363/1399932644044574770/image.png?ex=688acc5f&is=68897adf&hm=d75fa9e8fa68987680ca824d663d9c2ab2400e68e74431e66ff92e1ebef8ba9d&=&format=webp&quality=lossless&width=1240&height=720

So no you're not mistaken. AEnigma isn't guilty of any crimes. And technically speaking, OhayoKD isn't (it's just people discussing too much about these two players, brainwashing helpless people).

So there's no reason the blame should be on them, when it's just about two (amazing in their own right) basketball players, that have diehard stans. Maybe if we talked less about this, this wouldn't happen. Food for thought

He actually was someone defending Jordan against Webby, and one of the people not voting Kareem over,

[durantbird]

Did it affect 2023 Top 100 project?

[zimpy27]

Maybe just do a peaks project where LeBron and Jordan are kept out of it

[Top10alltime]

Maybe just do a peaks project where LeBron and Jordan are kept out of it

Completely agree. Jordan and Lebron debates is where the problem comes from.

[ceoofkobefans]

I'm someone who's been in the mentioned discord server on and off for a little under 3 years now and have been a relatively active member in the forum for a little over 4 years now and I'd like provide as much clarity to the situation as possible

1. as far as ohayokd and AEnigma (I will refer to them as webby and liam as that's what I know them as on discord) go, to my knowledge they aren't previously banned members but if they are they were banned quite some time ago and have been members for as long as i can remember on this forum so if they are they were banned more than 4 years ago.

2. I would say they formed some of conspiracy to skew the results of the last two projects in their favor, but this is more webby's (OhayoKD) doing than Liam's (AEnigma). As far as actually having people sign up to vote their way this was more prominent in the peaks voting than the RPOY voting, although Webby did try to get people to change their votes to align with this (he made a deal with me to vote hakeem over bird in 1986 in exchange for voting kobe top 3 from 2006-2010, which was where it was alleged that I was an alt of Webby's when he copy pasted my reasoning for putting kobe 1 in 2006, I can confirm we are very much different people. He also said he would not vote kobe number 1 in 08 if i voted him 1 in 09 to try to secure lebron winning 09 unanimously.) People were recruited to join the forum to vote in the projects to get lebron as high as possible as well as get MJ and bird as low as possible

3. While to my knowledge Webby isn't banned I do have reason to believe that ShaqAttack32 is an alt of someone in the discord server (likely Webby).

4. Liam did know that this was happening and although he wasn't outright participating in it to my knowledge he did nothing to stop webby from continuing it and didn't have a problem with it (TBF I didn't really care either because I don't really care about the results of these projects as they've always been about the discussion more than anything else, but I get why it's viewed as a problem that the project runner was aware of this and didn't try to stop it)

5. To my knowledge everyone that was recruited to join this effort is a real person and they are all different people, but I will say 3 of them are children that are pretty easily influenced and were influenced ( or at least convinced) by webby to be high on lebron and low on MJ and Bird. Whether or not this is a bad thing or should be punishable is up to the mods but I'd like to remind you these are children let's not be harsh on them and give them a chance to enjoy the forum like everyone else.

6. AI was *not* used in any way shape or form to create ballots, engage in discourse, or to fake an account. These are all real people making posts although webby did write the reasonings for some of the voters occasionally (this was more prominent in the peaks project).

7. To My knowledge these schemes didn't start until the 2024 RPOY project but it's possible they started in the 2023 top 100 or the 2022 peaks project but I Don't know.

If there's any other questions you can ask me and as far as I'm concerned I think we should continue or at least restart the peaks project. I don't have a problem letting the new people vote (or even webby or liam really) as it provides more discourse to the projects and gives more people the opportunity to learn more about the game we all love (and maybe even teach us a few things), votes are able to be changed prior to the voting period closing and this can be used as an incentive to get some of the older and more experienced members to try and discuss with these new members and potentially change their own points of view (webby is the only one that can't be convinced anything, these kids can be). the mods can decided whether or not the project is restarted or simply resumed and if webby and liam can participate but I'd love to see it happen one way or another regardless, as it's a fun project and a great opportunity to have some good discourse once we get past the Bron MJ and Kobe talks (which is sometimes easier said than done)

[jjgp111292]

I'm sorry and this might cause more unnecessary drama, but pulling the reality-show-mean-girl "I'm not here to make friends" routine over basketball discussion is just, quite frankly, insane and makes me question your purpose for being here. Applying such coldness as if this subject matter has some great stakes when this is all supposed to be fun speaks to a lack of perspective and is the spectrum of anti-social behavior that creates an OhayoKD

Also as far as the AI thing: take that with a grain of salt. I wasn't outright accusing anybody of specifically using that, just pointing out the optics and how easy it is to AI such a thing when two posts are so robotically similar to each other in a way that it seems like AI in a 2025 context.

And yeah, I also feel like AEnigma should just get a probationary ban; despite his lack of tact he seemed to largely be a good faith poster, probably just sticking by his friends too much.

[NO-KG-AI]

The join dates of the people in here championing these two bozos though

[jalengreen]

5. To my knowledge everyone that was recruited to join this effort is a real person and they are all different people, but I will say 3 of them are children that are pretty easily influenced and were influenced ( or at least convinced) by webby to be high on lebron and low on MJ and Bird. Whether or not this is a bad thing or should be punishable is up to the mods but I'd like to remind you these are children let's not be harsh on them and give them a chance to enjoy the forum like everyone else.

Dude's forming a cult of Jordan hating kids?? lmfao

[sp6r=underrated]

5. To my knowledge everyone that was recruited to join this effort is a real person and they are all different people, but I will say 3 of them are children that are pretty easily influenced and were influenced ( or at least convinced) by webby to be high on lebron and low on MJ and Bird. Whether or not this is a bad thing or should be punishable is up to the mods but I'd like to remind you these are children let's not be harsh on them and give them a chance to enjoy the forum like everyone else.

Dude's forming a cult of Jordan hating kids?? lmfao

Solution, he should be allowed to stay but required to change his username to the Pied Piper and have R. Kelly as his profile pic.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think what's being overlooked to some degree is there is some kind of pathological need to a. praise LeBron and b. hate MJ(which can also go the other way) that permeates a few people's existence on here. You can feel it even in the tenor of how they write and interact with others. It's beyond just a difference in opinion. It's acting as though it were this person's sole purpose in life which is very unhealthy and leads to all this other stuff. What does it matter if this person can use a lot of different sources of data to support an opinion if its coming from such a predisposed need to get a certain result and is done in such a heavy handed and manipulative manner? It just does a disservice to what the goal of the forum is which I thought is just more open discourse(done in a civil and respectful manner). There's a lot of bullying type behavior that's gone on here which I would say has gone mostly unpunished and sometimes feels like mods just don't even care tbh. Sure you can block people but I mean if that's what it takes then I don't know what the point of having a moderation team would be.

[Elpolo_14]

Many things being said here which there stuff I don't really know about cause I only been in this Website for 4 month but i think OhayoKD thoughts on Bill Russell is genuine or At least it actually put some though on it to make a reasonable Argument for Bill to be Top 1 in Peak/Prime ( Cause we been discussing About how high he thinks Bill Russell is as a player both Peak and Prime. To be totally honest I don't real agree with most stuff for Bill even tho I'm high on him myself in term of Career Value ). this is from 3 years ago that he made argument for bill russell to be the highest Peak ever in term of relative to era.

viewtopic.php?p=107550888#p107550888

( That mean he thinks it Gap all player including Bron MJ Kareem and more ) Even tho that not a PoV I'm agreeing with. I do think it important to say that he didn't Fake his thoughts about having bill as Goat peak.

[parsnips33]

I thought I was the only one OhayoKD was dming, I guess I was just a side chick

[Joao Saraiva]

Despite the results not being very according to my beliefs I couldn't care less! It's just a forum and some voting on a not very large poll about peaks, is it that serious?

Well I still enjoyed the reading about Tim Duncan and Bill Russell. Thanks to the posters who made us read the good stuff.

About the projects... well, if they're on they are. If they aren't, oh well. We'll just discuss the same stuff on other threads.

[parsnips33]

And anybody suggesting that Doc is manufacturing evidence or something because Jordan wasn't #1 is absolutely pathetic I mean come on

So so many people forgot that it's more important to be kind than it is to be right and it's made the boards unusable at times. OhayoKD and AEnigma were generally good to me, but generally ridiculously obnoxious and disrespectful in their manner of speaking (to say nothing of outright voting manipulation and whatever else) no matter where you rank LeBron relative to Jordan.

Not to get on my usual hobby horse, but how much of this is chickens coming home to roost in terms of individual player rankings. When everything is about ranking one guy over another, this might be the ultimate end point. I really think for future projects we should consider explorations into the league's history without explicitly ranking teams or players. Why can't we look at teams in their historical context and appreciate what made them special without trying to fit nearly 100 years of league history into one player ranking spreadsheet?

[NO-KG-AI]

Many things being said here which there stuff I don't really know about cause I only been in this Website for 4 month but i think OhayoKD thoughts on Bill Russell is genuine or At least it actually put some though on it to make a reasonable Argument for Bill to be Top 1 in Peak/Prime ( Cause we been discussing About how high he thinks Bill Russell is as a player both Peak and Prime. To be totally honest I don't real agree with most stuff for Bill even tho I'm high on him myself in term of Career Value ). this is from 3 years ago that he made argument for bill russell to be the highest Peak ever in term of relative to era.

viewtopic.php?p=107550888#p107550888

( That mean he thinks it Gap all player including Bron MJ Kareem and more ) Even tho that not a PoV I'm agreeing with. I do think it important to say that he didn't Fake his thoughts about having bill as Goat peak.

How do you not realize how obvious you look? Lol