"In a vacuum", has there ever been a better PO run than Jokic's '23?

[SpurNani]

Man, jokic fans are the biggest downplayers of their supporting casts i have seen in a while

Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray are on par with Bronny James and Emoni Bates, can't you see?

Some Jokic stans are absolutely insufferable. They make a likable guy like Jokic easy to root against because of all the BS his cult spews and downplaying of other players.

It makes it all the more enjoyable when he gets his ass booted in the 2nd round every year.

Aaron Gordon was a great help and positive surprise. However, he isnt the #2 or #3 paid player on last years roster. Murray, MPJ were considered the worst contracts in the entire league except for MAYBE Beal. Jokic haters are really something different pretending he has real help...what has the guy done to you SpurNani? Theres not a single person on RealGM who doesnt know that your dupe account has no other purpose than to hate on Nikola Jokic...

I dont care about what he's paid, Aaron Gordon is one of the best role players in the entire league. I struggle to find any team in the league he wouldn't start or get serious playing time on.

Murray is a 27 ppg playoff scorer alongside Jokic during his only two conference finals runs in his career.

Diminishing those two just to prop up Jokic is nasty work when he doesn't need it. This is why I say you're not a real Nugget fan, just a Jokic fanboy.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Aaron Gordon and Jamal Murray are on par with Bronny James and Emoni Bates, can't you see?

Some Jokic stans are absolutely insufferable. They make a likable guy like Jokic easy to root against because of all the BS his cult spews and downplaying of other players.

It makes it all the more enjoyable when he gets his ass booted in the 2nd round every year.

Aaron Gordon was a great help and positive surprise. However, he isnt the #2 or #3 paid player on last years roster. Murray, MPJ were considered the worst contracts in the entire league except for MAYBE Beal. Jokic haters are really something different pretending he has real help...what has the guy done to you SpurNani? Theres not a single person on RealGM who doesnt know that your dupe account has no other purpose than to hate on Nikola Jokic...

I dont care about what he's paid, Aaron Gordon is one of the best role players in the entire league. I struggle to find any team in the league he wouldn't start or get serious playing time on.

Murray is a 27 ppg playoff scorer alongside Jokic during his only two conference finals runs in his career.

Diminishing those two just to prop up Jokic is nasty work when he doesn't need it. This is why I say you're not a real Nugget fan, just a Jokic fanboy.

The Nuggets, until this offseason, were not a franchise to root for. They got one lucky shot in Jokic, apart from that they were extrenely poorly managed. But you are right, if Jokic moved on from the Nuggets (which will probably never happen) i'd rather keep watching hin than the team. Do you thiink thats wrong?

[SpurNani]

Aaron Gordon was a great help and positive surprise. However, he isnt the #2 or #3 paid player on last years roster. Murray, MPJ were considered the worst contracts in the entire league except for MAYBE Beal. Jokic haters are really something different pretending he has real help...what has the guy done to you SpurNani? Theres not a single person on RealGM who doesnt know that your dupe account has no other purpose than to hate on Nikola Jokic...

I dont care about what he's paid, Aaron Gordon is one of the best role players in the entire league. I struggle to find any team in the league he wouldn't start or get serious playing time on.

Murray is a 27 ppg playoff scorer alongside Jokic during his only two conference finals runs in his career.

Diminishing those two just to prop up Jokic is nasty work when he doesn't need it. This is why I say you're not a real Nugget fan, just a Jokic fanboy.

The Nuggets, until this offseason, were not a franchise to root for. They got one lucky shot in Jokic, apart from that they were extrenely poorly managed. But you are right, if Jokic moved on from the Nuggets (which will probably never happen) i'd rather keep watching hin than the team. Do you thiink thats wrong?

No. I am a LeBron fan, I root for him wherever.

Lebron and Jokic might be teammates next year. Might teach him a thing or two about defense before retirement.

[Rubios]

Murray is a max who should do the drives.

Jokic has never played with an All NBA or All Star.

Tyrese Haliburton just lead his team to the NBA Finals and would've probably beaten the Thunder while playing with just one former Allstar teammate in Siakam, who made the team as an alternate and injury replacement. I don't even think Haliburton is considered a consensus top 15 player today, but nobody complains about his teammates. Lack of all star teammates only gets beaten to death when it comes Jokic, who is supposedly some top 10 player of all time.

I didn't say a word about Haliburton. If I did, they'd be very good ones.
Still, Siakam was the ECF MVP and the Pacers had much more depth.

[Lawyershawn]

OP doesn't know what nominally means.

Also, correct answer is Dirk v. Heat

[Rubios]

OP doesn't know what nominally means.

Also, correct answer is Dirk v. Heat

Correct, I was directly -or rather literally- translating from Spanish.

Closest I can come up with is "in the void" or "in a vacuum".

Excuse my broken English, trying my best to express myself properly in a 3rd language.

[Johnny Firpo]

Does defense count? Guess not, because Jokic's not even a 2-way player...
MJ, Shaq, and Olajuwon's playoff runs are way better, and all the other All-Defensive Team players who had big offensive numbers in the playoffs too.

This is such a nonsensical take, sorry, and not only because Jokic played excellent defense during the run, but let's ignore that for a moment. We have impact stats, we have the eye test, judging by anything and everything, it was an amazing run. Saying that all other (!) defensive team players who had big offensive numbers automatically had better runs, is truly one of the most laughable statements I've ever read on Realgm. This automatically shows anyone that you just don't like the guy, to put it mildly.

[brutalitops]

Off my head

Dirk
Lebron in 2015 where Cleveland didn't win and Iggy won it for eventually bringing him down to demi-god level then godlike.
Lebron 2018
Kahwi 2019/Shaq 2001/Timmy 2004(super under rates) probably equal to Jokic

Also really rate Giannis' close out effort 2021

lebron shot 39% and 31% from 3 in the 2015 finals. out of 6 games only the 3rd game he had a positive +/-. he shot badly even before the warriors started iggy.
not really god-like or semi god like. warriors just also sucked ass on offensive bc they couldnt figure out the cavs off ball scheme on curry. they ended up just letting him dribble the ball up the court to win lol.

i agree with dirk kawhi shaq and timmy
lebron 2016 came back 1-3 is a hm too
so is curry 2023 taking down the next years finals matchup in the mavs and celtics with wiggins as his 2nd best player.

Legendary scorer Timothy Mozgav was the Cavs second leading scorer during those finals.

Lebron was forced to be a volume scorer because they were literally relying on Matthew Dellavadova and Mozgav to score points against a 67 win team.

Extremely different circumstances then the one Jokic found himself in the finals facing off against a team that lost their first play in game.

I know you joke about Mozgov, But he did have that 93 point game against the Warriors, absolutely killed them



And yeah, Had love go out with the shoulder, Kyrie was the only guys you would really want to rely on and does his knee.

Lebron was a monster, Best defensive player while absolutely controlling the offense was the Cav's only hope. If he delegated anything else then what he was doing, they were being smoked

Yeah he got inefficient, but he was literally having to do it all, from running every play and didn't have the luxury of even hiding for 1-2 possessions on defence. It was remarkable they won 2 games in that series.

Space those games out once a week and you might have had a very different outcome, Lebron just gassed and started making some mistakes, because he's mortal, Probably the greatest basketball player i've seen, but mortal. Going 46MPG in a finals and having to be relied upon for every possession on offense, then to be the best defender on your team is just impossible.

[Rubios]

Bam and AD aren't really true centers which is why they will both have real centers starting alongside them this upcoming season. They are great defenders but that is mainly because of their ability to be switchable and guard 1-5. Neither have the mass to do anything with Jokic for an entire game. Gobert is Jokics son, ill give you that.

You see this year when Jokic went against one of the actual true centers in the league with the size and defensive prowess in Zubac, Jokic struggled at times.

I know AD likes to (and will) play as a 4, but if he's not one of the best low post / rim protectors in the League...
And then there's Gobert, as you agree.

Vs Zubac (well, the Clippers, this PS) he did 24/12/10 with 58%TS
I mean... that's dominance.
But I agree, he did not play very well: he should have made 5 more shots per game -at least- instead of passing the ball.
I invite you to take a look at his mates' shooting% these series. They were below bad.

In 2023, Murray was on fire. Nowadays... you can count on AG, who should be the 4th guy.

[bonita_the_frog]

Does defense count? Guess not, because Jokic's not even a 2-way player...
MJ, Shaq, and Olajuwon's playoff runs are way better, and all the other All-Defensive Team players who had big offensive numbers in the playoffs too.

This is such a nonsensical take, sorry, and not only because Jokic played excellent defense during the run, but let's ignore that for a moment. We have impact stats, we have the eye test, judging by anything and everything, it was an amazing run. Saying that all other (!) defensive team players who had big offensive numbers automatically had better runs, is truly one of the most laughable statements I've ever read on Realgm. This automatically shows anyone that you just don't like the guy, to put it mildly.

I don't rate players highly if they are incapable of ever making an All-Defensive team.
And Jokic is one of those players, he's not physically capable of being an All-League defender.
So i'm not talking about actually making the All-Defensive team, just getting to a level where it looks possible.
Steph Curry is another, about the same level of talent as Jokic, and neither are high on my all-time list.
My Dad is a basketball coach, and i've been hearing about defense all my life, not offense.

[Johnny Firpo]

Does defense count? Guess not, because Jokic's not even a 2-way player...
MJ, Shaq, and Olajuwon's playoff runs are way better, and all the other All-Defensive Team players who had big offensive numbers in the playoffs too.

This is such a nonsensical take, sorry, and not only because Jokic played excellent defense during the run, but let's ignore that for a moment. We have impact stats, we have the eye test, judging by anything and everything, it was an amazing run. Saying that all other (!) defensive team players who had big offensive numbers automatically had better runs, is truly one of the most laughable statements I've ever read on Realgm. This automatically shows anyone that you just don't like the guy, to put it mildly.

I don't rate players highly if they are incapable of ever making an All-Defensive team.
And Jokic is one of those players, he's not physically capable of being an All-League defender.
So i'm not talking about actually making the All-Defensive team, just getting to a level where it looks possible.
Steph Curry is another, about the same level of talent as Jokic, and neither are high on my all-time list.
My Dad is a basketball coach, and i've been hearing about defense all my life, not offense.

Well, that actually makes sense then, I mean for you specifically, thank you. If that's your criteria, than that is your criteria, I don't agree with it personally, but it makes sense you feel that way based on your background.

[fast+forward]

Nothing to add except this insane stat. Dirk shot 45/46 in the finals in 2011, 24/24 FT vs OKC in a game and 94% overall on relatively decent volume for free throws.

[Onlytimewilltel]

It's up there. There's a tendency for a nostalgia bias when questions like this are posed, which counteracts the recency bias, but I think it’s up there when you look at the data.

Two issues in his case: Quality of opposition wasn't that great and his defensive impact is lacklustre compared to some of the people he'd be compared to here. Strictly offensively, though, it might just be the best run ever.

There are a couple of good candidates, but I think Hakeem's 1995 run was pretty insane considering the opposition. He took down Malone-led Jazz, Barkley-led Suns, D-Rob-led Spurs, and Shaq-led Magic, outplaying every single one of them. Averaged 33-10-4-3, outplaying his opposition on offense and dominating on defense.

Other candidates off the top of my head are Jordan's 1991 and 1993 runs, LeBron's 2012 and 2016 runs, Duncan's 2003, Dirk's 2011, Kawhi's 2019, and Giannis' 2021. There's probably some candidates from previous eras also.

Has to be said also, LeBron's 2018 run might be superior to all of them if you consider the ones that didn't end in a title. It was insane how he carried that Cavs team to the Finals. Almost stole Game 1 away against the most loaded team in history on his own, too.

Yup, that's my personal favorite best PO run. Dominated on both ends of the court.

[OdomFan]

Hakeem

[Rubios]

I believe he's the only player to lead the whole PS in total points, rebounds and assists. Playing only 20 games.

[Optms]

I believe he's the only player to lead the whole PS in total points, rebounds and assists. Playing only 20 games.

Pretty sure Lebron has done this multiple times. He's also led entire series in points, rebounds, assists AND blocks.

Luka led the entire playoffs in those 3 categories in 2024. Literally 2 seasons ago.

[WestbrookGOATed]

Some of you guys care more about Jokic than Jokic does

[Expoking]

I believe he's the only player to lead the whole PS in total points, rebounds and assists. Playing only 20 games.

Pretty sure Lebron has done this multiple times. He's also led entire series in points, rebounds, assists AND blocks.

Luka led the entire playoffs in those 3 categories in 2024. Literally 2 seasons ago.

I think the LeBron record was in the actual finals and not for the entire playoffs. You're right Luka did achieve this 2 seasons ago though Jokic averaged more points, rebounds, assists better stats in pretty much every category in his 23 run, plus he actually won in the finals unlike Luka.

[SpurNani]

I believe he's the only player to lead the whole PS in total points, rebounds and assists. Playing only 20 games.

Pretty sure Lebron has done this multiple times. He's also led entire series in points, rebounds, assists AND blocks.

Luka led the entire playoffs in those 3 categories in 2024. Literally 2 seasons ago.

I think the LeBron record was in the actual finals and not for the entire playoffs. You're right Luka did achieve this 2 seasons ago though Jokic averaged more points, rebounds, assists better stats in pretty much every category in his 23 run, plus he actually won in the finals unlike Luka.

Lol

Lukas competition was far fiercer. He literally eliminated the last two teams who beat Jokic and did it in 5 and 6 games, respectively.

Luka absolutely destroyed the Timberwolves in 5 games. The same Wolves who beat Jokic on his court in one of the biggest game 7 collapses in NBA history.

Luka's 24 Mavericks would absolutely run through the 23 field Jokic faced. But his Mavs just so happened to have played in a normal year where an actual great team like Boston existed.

Im sure in 24 Luka would have loved to have played a play-in team in the finals that was missing one of their top scorers like Jokic played, and not an all time dominant juggernaut Boston team.

[Expoking]

Pretty sure Lebron has done this multiple times. He's also led entire series in points, rebounds, assists AND blocks.

Luka led the entire playoffs in those 3 categories in 2024. Literally 2 seasons ago.

I think the LeBron record was in the actual finals and not for the entire playoffs. You're right Luka did achieve this 2 seasons ago though Jokic averaged more points, rebounds, assists better stats in pretty much every category in his 23 run, plus he actually won in the finals unlike Luka.

Lol

Lukas competition was far fiercer. He literally eliminated the last two teams who beat Jokic and did it in 5 and 6 games, respectively.

Luka absolutely destroyed the Timberwolves in 5 games. The same Wolves who beat Jokic on his court in one of the biggest game 7 collapses in NBA history.

Luka's 24 Mavericks would absolutely run through the 23 field Jokic faced. But his Mavs just so happened to have played in a normal year where an actual great team like Boston existed.

Im sure in 24 Luka would have loved to have played a play-in team in the finals that was missing one of their top scorers like Jokic played, and not an all time dominant juggernaut Boston team.

How is it that Boston was an all time juggernaut even though every opponent they had in the post season had an injury to a key player?

Nuggets beat a play in team in the finals that just so happened to beat the Celtics in the ECF.

Also you didn't say anything about Luka underperforming (relative to his standard) against OKC and his front court doing the heavy lifting in that 4-2 win