Kuminga to SAC, is there a middle ground?

[gswhoops]

Does it say what the current SAC/PHO offers are?

Saric/Carter or Grayson Allen offers are the last I remember seeing.

Not very good offers.

Yeah, there was some talk of the Suns’ offer potentially also being Royce O’Neale (maybe with Nick Richards) rather than Allen, but it sounds like the Warriors don’t have an interest in any of the 3 guys.

And it’s also pretty clear that the Kings’ offer can’t actually include Saric at this time, since he can’t be aggregated until January. At the time conversations started and that was “on the table”, the trade where teh Kings got him from Denver wasn’t completed so alternate structures were available as a multi-team deal, but that’s not possible any longer with that deal being done. So really the only way Sacramento can make a sign-and-trade offer, and get under the appropriate cap / apron (I can’t remember which they’re at) would be if they move salary off their books, most likely either Monk or DeRozan. (And they wouldn’t be going to the Warriors, who have no interest in either, and would create further complications for their books.) So any deal with Sacramento would have to be complicated, requiring at least a third team to take on that salary while giving very little back.

I'd absolutely rather have Allen or O'Neale than the Carter/Saric package

[Nate the Great]

Does it say what the current SAC/PHO offers are?

Saric/Carter or Grayson Allen offers are the last I remember seeing.

Not very good offers.

Yeah, there was some talk of the Suns’ offer potentially also being Royce O’Neale (maybe with Nick Richards) rather than Allen, but it sounds like the Warriors don’t have an interest in any of the 3 guys.

And it’s also pretty clear that the Kings’ offer can’t actually include Saric at this time, since he can’t be aggregated until January. At the time conversations started and that was “on the table”, the trade where teh Kings got him from Denver wasn’t completed so alternate structures were available as a multi-team deal, but that’s not possible any longer with that deal being done. So really the only way Sacramento can make a sign-and-trade offer, and get under the appropriate cap / apron (I can’t remember which they’re at) would be if they move salary off their books, most likely either Monk or DeRozan. (And they wouldn’t be going to the Warriors, who have no interest in either, and would create further complications for their books.) So any deal with Sacramento would have to be complicated, requiring at least a third team to take on that salary while giving very little back.

It never made sense, anyhow. The Warriors had Saric in 2023/2024, and he wasn’t a good fit. Also, if the Kings trade Carter, it should be to a tanking/rebuilding team. His value is almost entirely potential value. He’s a good defender, but contributes nothing on offense right now.

This feels like a trade idea that came from a sportswriter, or from the internet. It makes no sense for the Warriors; I don’t know if it makes sense for the Kings.

[Sactowndog]

Shams and Slater put out an article with some interesting tidits re: Kuminga this morning: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45859355/sources-jonathan-kuminga-declining-warriors-offer-terms

Some highlights:

Kuminga and Turner have used July to explore their sign-and-trade options. The most significant negotiations have been with the Sacramento Kings and Phoenix Suns, getting proposals up to four years approaching $90 million total, including a player option for the final season, sources said. Phoenix has made the most lucrative push via sign-and-trade.

The Warriors have been uninterested in the trade returns from the Kings and Suns for Kuminga, sources said. In recent days, they have begun signaling a plan to cut off sign-and-trade conversations entirely, using their restricted free agency leverage to the fullest, sources said. Their current stance is that Kuminga will be on the Warriors' roster to begin next season -- either through their two-year offer on the table or the standing $7.9 million one-year qualifying offer, whichever is Kuminga's preferred path.

Kuminga prefers the longer-term offers presented by the Kings and Suns because he believes they signify a fresh start, a larger guaranteed role, a promised starting position and a greater level of respect and career control, shown in part through the player option, sources said. Phoenix's proposal is also nearly $70 million more guaranteed than the Warriors' offer.

Seems like the most probable path is take the qualifying offer and then walk. The relationship seems negative and the Kings can try to sign him next year.

[NW]

Shams and Slater put out an article with some interesting tidits re: Kuminga this morning: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/45859355/sources-jonathan-kuminga-declining-warriors-offer-terms

Some highlights:

Kuminga and Turner have used July to explore their sign-and-trade options. The most significant negotiations have been with the Sacramento Kings and Phoenix Suns, getting proposals up to four years approaching $90 million total, including a player option for the final season, sources said. Phoenix has made the most lucrative push via sign-and-trade.

The Warriors have been uninterested in the trade returns from the Kings and Suns for Kuminga, sources said. In recent days, they have begun signaling a plan to cut off sign-and-trade conversations entirely, using their restricted free agency leverage to the fullest, sources said. Their current stance is that Kuminga will be on the Warriors' roster to begin next season -- either through their two-year offer on the table or the standing $7.9 million one-year qualifying offer, whichever is Kuminga's preferred path.

Kuminga prefers the longer-term offers presented by the Kings and Suns because he believes they signify a fresh start, a larger guaranteed role, a promised starting position and a greater level of respect and career control, shown in part through the player option, sources said. Phoenix's proposal is also nearly $70 million more guaranteed than the Warriors' offer.

Seems like the most probable path is take the qualifying offer and then walk. The relationship seems negative and the Kings can try to sign him next year.

With what cap room

[gswhoops]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

[gswhoops]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

[giberish]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

A solid rotation player that fits and a protected 1st would be a good return. But a rotation player that doesn't fit forces GS to try and reshuffle some more and most likely use the pick to get someone that actually helps. Even if the Warriors are bringing in Horford they need more size, especially a good rotation big forward option.

With most of the league set for the season trying to find a position swap for a better position fit is hard.

[gswhoops]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

A solid rotation player that fits and a protected 1st would be a good return. But a rotation player that doesn't fit forces GS to try and reshuffle some more and most likely use the pick to get someone that actually helps. Even if the Warriors are bringing in Horford they need more size, especially a good rotation big forward option.

With most of the league set for the season trying to find a position swap for a better position fit is hard.

I like the Phoenix offer better depending on the particularities of the 1st being offered. Royce O'Neale is the kind of guy Kerr would love - solid 3/4 defender, good shooter, knows his role and won't try and hijack the offense. Richards is meh but at least he's 7 feet tall and a good rebounder.

[DonaldSanders]

I like the Phoenix offer better depending on the particularities of the 1st being offered. Royce O'Neale is the kind of guy Kerr would love - solid 3/4 defender, good shooter, knows his role and won't try and hijack the offense. Richards is meh but at least he's 7 feet tall and a good rebounder.

Agreed, right now the Phoenix offer is better. My guess is GS will try to leverage this fact over Sac to make them do something stupid, which Vivek has done many times. 1 unprotected or lightly protected Sac pick would be gold, but I'm guessing the new GM would do his best to push back at Vivek to prevent such a disaster.

[madskillz8]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

Is it possible that the rotation player would be DeRozan salary-wise ? (taking into account the current payroll of GSW and aprons)

[gswhoops]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

Is it possible that the rotation player would be DeRozan salary-wise ? (taking into account the current payroll of GSW and aprons)

It's technically possible but hard to pull off. Because Kuminga is BYC, his outgoing salary only counts half for GS. So either we'd have to send out more players or Sacramento would have to pay Kuminga something pretty close to a max deal to make a Kuminga for DDR swap work.

[NW]

More updates from ESPN today (videos, via Reddit)

Sacramento has offered a "rotation player" and a protected 1st for Kuminga, GSW is holding out for an unprotected 1st (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdflgi/charania_the_sacramento_kings_have_offered_the/)

Phoenix has offered Royce O'Neale, Nick Richards, and 4 2nd round picks for Kuminga, Kuminga prefers Sacramento (who has supposedly promised him a starting role) (https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1mdfxib/spears_the_phoenix_suns_have_offered_a_trade/)

Trying to read tea leaves here, I'm guessing the "rotation player" is most likely Monk, since they were trying to move off him earlier in the offseason and he's the only "rotation player" who fits cap-wise.

Is it possible that the rotation player would be DeRozan salary-wise ? (taking into account the current payroll of GSW and aprons)

In December or January if Kuminga takes the short deal maybe

[LightTheBeam]

It's no surprise to me seeing PHX offer. That is an above average offer for a RFA. Kings offering any kind of 1st is silly. Let him go to Phoenix or take the QO unless the pick is Minnesotas 1st and heavily protected (lotto minimum, turns into 2 2nds)

[NW]

It's no surprise to me seeing PHX offer. That is an above average offer for a RFA. Kings offering any kind of 1st is silly. Let him go to Phoenix or take the QO unless the pick is Minnesotas 1st and heavily protected (lotto minimum, turns into 2 2nds)

They’ll call the QO bluff. The teams most interested in Kuminga aren’t shaping up to have cap room. The only team that’s really shown interest in him that likely will are the Wizards.

If the Kings don’t want to make a significant offer, cool. But going to offer near $20 mil a year and near $90 overall and having the FO staff reach out and promise a starter role and minutes don’t scream “we don’t care if we get him or not” to me. The Kings got plans for the guy. Got to pay the price

[raferfenix]

Can someone go through the BYC math showing how a Malik Monk for Kuminga trade works contractually?

Monk makes $18.7M next year.

Reports did not indicate Kuminga would be getting anything close to $36M.

That’s where the original trade scenario reported involved the Pistons absorbing Monk.

Fewer teams with cap space or a TPE to play that role now.

[gswhoops]

Can someone go through the BYC math showing how a Malik Monk for Kuminga trade works contractually?

Monk makes $18.7M next year.

Reports did not indicate Kuminga would be getting anything close to $36M.

That’s where the original trade scenario reported involved the Pistons absorbing Monk.

Fewer teams with cap space or a TPE to play that role now.

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

[raferfenix]

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

Thanks I didn’t know the buffer room would be so high.

[gswhoops]

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

Thanks I didn’t know the buffer room would be so high.

The new CBA is a lot more forgiving on trade matching rules - it used to be 125% across the board.

[tester551]

Can someone go through the BYC math showing how a Malik Monk for Kuminga trade works contractually?

Monk makes $18.7M next year.

Reports did not indicate Kuminga would be getting anything close to $36M.

That’s where the original trade scenario reported involved the Pistons absorbing Monk.

Fewer teams with cap space or a TPE to play that role now.

Assuming Kuminga gets a $23M contract. For Kings, his contract trade value would be $23M. For GSW, his contract trade value would be $11.5M

For Kings:
Monk $18.7M + $7.5M (matching allotment) = $26.2 allowable incoming value > $23M for Kuminga, therefore a valid trade

For GSW:
Kuminga $11.5M + $7.5M (matching allotment) = $19.0 allowable incoming value > $18.7M for Monk, therefore a valid trade

Kings would be hard-capped at the first apron. GSW would not be hard-capped.

[xdrta+]

Can someone go through the BYC math showing how a Malik Monk for Kuminga trade works contractually?

Monk makes $18.7M next year.

Reports did not indicate Kuminga would be getting anything close to $36M.

That’s where the original trade scenario reported involved the Pistons absorbing Monk.

Fewer teams with cap space or a TPE to play that role now.

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

The only detail is that while the 7.5M was the original add in '23-24, it goes up with the cap. For 25-26 it's $8,527,000.