Top 50 Peaks of all time

[jalengreen]

Can't get behind Kobe over Jokic. Westbrook's too high for me as well. Folks have mentioned Luka but I'd certainly throw Embiid in as well (how much you discount due to injury is a factor tbf).

Seems like a good and reasonable list in general though

[Cavsfansince84]

The ones that I'd say are way too high are Steph(I get it but his playoffs just wasn't good enough), Kobe(way too high for both his rs and ps), Wade(playoff didn't cut it), KD(rs was barely mvp worthy), Kidd, Dwight, CP3, Embiid, Hill, Pippen, Isiah.

Too low: Frazier(to me its like a top 5 pg peak at worst), Reed(mvp, fmvp, 1st team def at center position), Dr.J(unless its an aba thing).

[f4p]

The ones that I'd say are way too high are Steph(I get it but his playoffs just wasn't good enough), Kobe(way too high for both his rs and ps), Wade(playoff didn't cut it), KD(rs was barely mvp worthy), Kidd, Dwight, CP3, Embiid, Hill, Pippen, Isiah.

Too low: Frazier(to me its like a top 5 pg peak at worst), Reed(mvp, fmvp, 1st team def at center position), Dr.J(unless its an aba thing).

yeah like if steph 2016 is going to be in there because we ignore his injury, then something like kawhi 2017 would seemingly need to be much higher, as his injury was even less "this guy is just injury prone (steph was already injured before the sweat slip i believe or was it the other way around?)" and more "someone injured him recklessly/on purpose".

[f4p]

yeah i don't think you have to be low on kobe to also say he didn't have a top 20 peak. i could see having him 10th or 11th and still saying his peak was outside the top 20 as there's not necessarily an obvious peak season.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'm also in the church of 2012 LeBron - while I get why some like SideshowBob were a little bit lower on that season because he was still a physical shadow of Cleveland LeBron, I feel his postseason performance given all of the roster uncertainty, capped by a *incredible* finals performance against a great team once Miami finally got stable again puts the effort up there with anybody. 2013 was the true portent of "LeCoast" even if the performance aside from the playoffs was better in a vacuum (the 13 Heat were genuinely bad on defense before January, and I'm a stickler for full season effort. Aside from a March slump that was possibly a concussion, we got that from 2012 Bron.)

I used to have 2012 as LeBron's peak, but I don't really see the argument over 2009 anymore besides ring bias.

His motor is better in 2009. His jump shot is better in 2009. His playmaking volume is better in 2009. His scoring volume is better in 09 without a loss in efficiency. His defense is arguably better in 2009 too. It's his athletic peak. His RS is more impressive. His playoff run(despite the amazing games he had in 2012) is also more impressive. He did better against better defenses than he did in 2012.

And all the box score/impact data strongly favors 2009 over 2012. His box score metrics are higher in 2009 and the impact stats are too.

If LeBron won a ring that season, I think it'd be universally seen as his peak.

[tsherkin]

His jump shot is better in 2009.

Hmmm....

09: 28.6% from 10-16, 38.8% from 16-23, 34.4% from 3 (on higher volume)
12: 48.1% from 10-16 on nearly twice the usage, 38.4% from 16-23, 36.2% from 3

Looks a lot like he was crushing the short middie a lot better and shooting better from 3 on lower volume, actually.

[TheGOATRises007]

His jump shot is better in 2009.

Hmmm....

09: 28.6% from 10-16, 38.8% from 16-23, 34.4% from 3 (on higher volume)
12: 48.1% from 10-16 on nearly twice the usage, 38.4% from 16-23, 36.2% from 3

Looks a lot like he was crushing the short middie a lot better and shooting better from 3 on lower volume, actually.

Do you have the volume numbers?

Also, what about the playoffs?

[tsherkin]

Do you have the volume numbers?

Also, what about the playoffs?

09: 44.4% from 10-16, 48.6% from 16-23, 33.3% from 3
12: 47.7% from 10-16, 33.3% from 16-23, 25.9% from 3

14 games in 09, 23 in 2012. Minding he shot 18.8% from 3 in the Finals and had to go through a strong Boston D in the ECFs, which shakes things up.

Meantime, he went BONKERS against Orlando in the 09 ECF after sweeping the first two rounds

There's discussion to be had here, but it isn't clearly in favor of 09. There's some difference in the nature of the defenses he saw, some large differences in the larger sample of the regular season, and he's got the extra games in the Finals in 2012 which hurt his 3pt shooting.

Just some food for thought.

[TheGOATRises007]

Do you have the volume numbers?

Also, what about the playoffs?

09: 44.4% from 10-16, 48.6% from 16-23, 33.3% from 3
12: 47.7% from 10-16, 33.3% from 16-23, 25.9% from 3

14 games in 09, 23 in 2012. Minding he shot 18.8% from 3 in the Finals and had to go through a strong Boston D in the ECFs, which shakes things up.

Meantime, he went BONKERS against Orlando in the 09 ECF after sweeping the first two rounds

There's discussion to be had here, but it isn't clearly in favor of 09. There's some difference in the nature of the defenses he saw, some large differences in the larger sample of the regular season, and he's got the extra games in the Finals in 2012 which hurt his 3pt shooting.

Just some food for thought.

I concede then for jump shooting. I might have mixed up the years.

I do think my other points still stand though.

[Cavsfansince84]

I'm also in the church of 2012 LeBron - while I get why some like SideshowBob were a little bit lower on that season because he was still a physical shadow of Cleveland LeBron, I feel his postseason performance given all of the roster uncertainty, capped by a *incredible* finals performance against a great team once Miami finally got stable again puts the effort up there with anybody. 2013 was the true portent of "LeCoast" even if the performance aside from the playoffs was better in a vacuum (the 13 Heat were genuinely bad on defense before January, and I'm a stickler for full season effort. Aside from a March slump that was possibly a concussion, we got that from 2012 Bron.)

I used to have 2012 as LeBron's peak, but I don't really see the argument over 2009 anymore besides ring bias.

His motor is better in 2009. His jump shot is better in 2009. His playmaking volume is better in 2009. His scoring volume is better in 09 without a loss in efficiency. His defense is arguably better in 2009 too. It's his athletic peak. His RS is more impressive. His playoff run(despite the amazing games he had in 2012) is also more impressive. He did better against better defenses than he did in 2012.

And all the box score/impact data strongly favors 2009 over 2012. His box score metrics are higher in 2009 and the impact stats are too.

If LeBron won a ring that season, I think it'd be universally seen as his peak.

I sort of agree that in terms of what we actually saw on the court it might be his peak and the best peak ever. The arguments against it tend to always be a. it was an outlier shooting spree b. lost in the ecf c. he improved his post game, 3 pt shooting and game management ability enough later on that 09 can't be his peak. Which is partly why I don't like the idea of one year peak projects is that the arguments can become so muddled. I think if people are going to use a year prior or after to discredit a different year then we might as well just make it best 3 years as a peak and leave it at that.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'm also in the church of 2012 LeBron - while I get why some like SideshowBob were a little bit lower on that season because he was still a physical shadow of Cleveland LeBron, I feel his postseason performance given all of the roster uncertainty, capped by a *incredible* finals performance against a great team once Miami finally got stable again puts the effort up there with anybody. 2013 was the true portent of "LeCoast" even if the performance aside from the playoffs was better in a vacuum (the 13 Heat were genuinely bad on defense before January, and I'm a stickler for full season effort. Aside from a March slump that was possibly a concussion, we got that from 2012 Bron.)

I used to have 2012 as LeBron's peak, but I don't really see the argument over 2009 anymore besides ring bias.

His motor is better in 2009. His jump shot is better in 2009. His playmaking volume is better in 2009. His scoring volume is better in 09 without a loss in efficiency. His defense is arguably better in 2009 too. It's his athletic peak. His RS is more impressive. His playoff run(despite the amazing games he had in 2012) is also more impressive. He did better against better defenses than he did in 2012.

And all the box score/impact data strongly favors 2009 over 2012. His box score metrics are higher in 2009 and the impact stats are too.

If LeBron won a ring that season, I think it'd be universally seen as his peak.

I sort of agree that in terms of what we actually saw on the court it might be his peak and the best peak ever. The arguments against it tend to always be a. it was an outlier shooting spree b. lost in the ecf c. he improved his post game, 3 pt shooting and game management ability enough later on that 09 can't be his peak. Which is partly why I don't like the idea of one year peak projects is that the arguments can become so muddled. I think if people are going to use a year prior or after to discredit a different year then we might as well just make it best 3 years as a peak and leave it at that.

I think that's fair.

2-3 year peaks are probably better suited.

[jjgp111292]

I'm also in the church of 2012 LeBron - while I get why some like SideshowBob were a little bit lower on that season because he was still a physical shadow of Cleveland LeBron, I feel his postseason performance given all of the roster uncertainty, capped by a *incredible* finals performance against a great team once Miami finally got stable again puts the effort up there with anybody. 2013 was the true portent of "LeCoast" even if the performance aside from the playoffs was better in a vacuum (the 13 Heat were genuinely bad on defense before January, and I'm a stickler for full season effort. Aside from a March slump that was possibly a concussion, we got that from 2012 Bron.)

I used to have 2012 as LeBron's peak, but I don't really see the argument over 2009 anymore besides ring bias.

His motor is better in 2009. His jump shot is better in 2009. His playmaking volume is better in 2009. His scoring volume is better in 09 without a loss in efficiency. His defense is arguably better in 2009 too. It's his athletic peak. His RS is more impressive. His playoff run(despite the amazing games he had in 2012) is also more impressive. He did better against better defenses than he did in 2012.

And all the box score/impact data strongly favors 2009 over 2012. His box score metrics are higher in 2009 and the impact stats are too.

If LeBron won a ring that season, I think it'd be universally seen as his peak.

That's fair - I think in vacuum, 09 is more impressive but I'd "trust" 2012 LeBron a little bit more. I don't think '12 Bron has the flameout in Game 6 against Orlando, for example. Conversely, I think '09 LeBron is more helpless if his jumper went to get cigarettes the way it did in 2012...where that LeBron still dominated anyway.

[tsherkin]

I concede then for jump shooting. I might have mixed up the years.

I do think my other points still stand though.

All worth looking into; I only wanted to address the jump shooting

[ceoofkobefans]

Can't get behind Kobe over Jokic. Westbrook's too high for me as well. Folks have mentioned Luka but I'd certainly throw Embiid in as well (how much you discount due to injury is a factor tbf).

Seems like a good and reasonable list in general though

Kobe and jokic was a real tossup for me. I view them pretty similarly offensively although I give Jokic the edge, but I do think Kobe's defense /two way ability is enough for him to be argued over jokic although i see it both ways

[ceoofkobefans]

I used to have 2012 as LeBron's peak, but I don't really see the argument over 2009 anymore besides ring bias.

His motor is better in 2009. His jump shot is better in 2009. His playmaking volume is better in 2009. His scoring volume is better in 09 without a loss in efficiency. His defense is arguably better in 2009 too. It's his athletic peak. His RS is more impressive. His playoff run(despite the amazing games he had in 2012) is also more impressive. He did better against better defenses than he did in 2012.

And all the box score/impact data strongly favors 2009 over 2012. His box score metrics are higher in 2009 and the impact stats are too.

If LeBron won a ring that season, I think it'd be universally seen as his peak.

I sort of agree that in terms of what we actually saw on the court it might be his peak and the best peak ever. The arguments against it tend to always be a. it was an outlier shooting spree b. lost in the ecf c. he improved his post game, 3 pt shooting and game management ability enough later on that 09 can't be his peak. Which is partly why I don't like the idea of one year peak projects is that the arguments can become so muddled. I think if people are going to use a year prior or after to discredit a different year then we might as well just make it best 3 years as a peak and leave it at that.

I think that's fair.

2-3 year peaks are probably better suited.

yea i personally use multi year peaks (anywhere from 2-5 yrs depending on the player but try to keep it to 3-5 yrs with exceptions like Bill walton)

[One_and_Done]

Can't get behind Kobe over Jokic. Westbrook's too high for me as well. Folks have mentioned Luka but I'd certainly throw Embiid in as well (how much you discount due to injury is a factor tbf).

Seems like a good and reasonable list in general though

Kobe and jokic was a real tossup for me. I view them pretty similarly offensively although I give Jokic the edge, but I do think Kobe's defense /two way ability is enough for him to be argued over jokic although i see it both ways

I can't see a single valid argument for Kobe over Jokic. Jokic is better than him at pretty much everything offensively, and defensively it doesn't matter enough to tilted things. Kobe is a guard, so his defensive ceiling is capped anyway, and peak Kobe was an overrated defender in any event.

[migya]

haven't tracked this series yet to see if this is true (it isnt to my memory but its been some years since i watched anything from this series so i'll take your word for it), David Robinson is supposed to be a sub goat tier defender which is the whole reason you're comfortable putting him on an island with hakeem. It is still a knock on robinson (who's defense is his biggest selling point) to allow hakeem to average 35 ppg on +6.7 rTS%.

Most superstars will get theirs offensively. Olajuwon got him but the context is more than that. It wasn't fair on Robinson but most of his career wasn't.

there's a difference between getting yours and having your best offensive series ever primarily against someone that is supposed to be a top 3-5 defender ever. Like Ewing held Hakeem to 26.9 ppg 3.6 apg 9.1 rpg and 3.6 tpg on +5.4 rTS% (I've only tracked the first two games of this series but hakeem had 19 points, 3 assists, and 3 turnovers on 8-20 shooting (43.1 TS%) in 45 possessions being primarily guarded by ewing in those games, and he had 53 points, 5 assists 7 turnovers on 20-43 shooting (52 TS%) total in those first two games), this is a very good performance and what you'd expect from an all time great defender

That's just shows that Olajuwon was a great scorer, doing that to two of the best defending Centers and Ewing himself might be a top 10 alltime defender.

[trelos6]

I was going to make a post about 2025 SGA and how high does he go.

I think it was a borderline level ATG season. Not as good as 2017 Steph but around the mark of a 1987 Magic / ‘86 Bird, just ahead of the best West / Oscar seasons.

Shai Gilgeous Alexander (2025 > 2024). Top 10 playmaker. Drove the #3 offense in the league, +5.8 rOrtg. 34.4 pp75 on +6.1 rTS% in the regular season, dropped to 29.4 pp75 on -0.2 rTS% in the playoffs.

Playoffs was a step down, but still great scoring volume.

xRAPM: +6.1, -3.1, +9.2

[A_Fernz23]

1. 2013 LeBron
2. 1991 MJ
3. 2000 Shaq
4. 1977 Kareem
5. 1993 Hakeem
6. 1967 Wilt
7. 2016 Curry
8. 2003 Duncan
9. 1986 Bird
10. 1987 Magic
11. 1962 Russell
12. 2023 Jokic
13. 2004 KG
14. 2008 Kobe
15. 1995 Robinson
16. 2017 KD
17. 2021 Giannis
18. 1966 West
19. 1977 Walton
20. 1964 Oscar
21. 2009 Wade
22. 2017 Kawhi
23. 2020 AD
24. 2015 CP3
25. 2011 Dirk
26. 2007 Nash
27. 2025 SGA
28. 2023 Embiid
29. 2019 Harden
30. 1976 Dr J
31. 1990 Charles
32. 2024 Luka
33. 1998 Karl
34. 2011 Dwight
35. 1983 Moses
36. 2003 T Mac
37. 1990 Ewing
38. 1995 Pippen
39. 2017 Westbrook
40. 1958 Petit
41. 2016 Draymond
42. 2000 Alonzo
43. 1972 Walt
44. 1975 Rick
45. 1970 Willis
46. 1975 Artis
47. 1974 Lanier
48. 1967 Thurmond
49. 1961 Baylor
50. 2023 Butler


Rough list, a lot of interchangeable spots from 23-28, 35-40 and 41-50 for me. Was also considering Chris Webber in 02, 2019 PG13, Grant Hill and Kevin McHale

[ceoofkobefans]

1. 2013 LeBron
2. 1991 MJ
3. 2000 Shaq
4. 1977 Kareem
5. 1993 Hakeem
6. 1967 Wilt
7. 2016 Curry
8. 2003 Duncan
9. 1986 Bird
10. 1987 Magic
11. 1962 Russell
12. 2023 Jokic
13. 2008 Kobe
14. 1995 Robinson
15. 2017 KD
16. 2021 Giannis
17. 1966 West
18. 1977 Walton
19. 1964 Oscar
20. 2009 Wade
21. 2017 Kawhi
22. 2020 AD
23. 2015 CP3
24. 2011 Dirk
25. 2007 Nash
26. 2025 SGA
27. 2023 Embiid
28. 2019 Harden
29. 1976 Dr J
30. 1990 Charles
31. 2024 Luka
32. 1998 Karl
33. 2011 Dwight
34. 1983 Moses
35. 2003 T Mac
36. 1990 Ewing
37. 1995 Pippen
38. 2017 Westbrook
39. 1958 Petit
40. 2016 Draymond
41. 2000 Alonzo
42. 1972 Walt
43. 1975 Rick
44. 1970 Willis
45. 1975 Artis
46. 1974 Lanier
47. 1967 Thurmond
48. 1961 Baylor
49. 2023 Butler
50. 2021 Lillard

Rough list, a lot of interchangeable spots from 23-28, 35-40 and 41-50 for me. Was also considering Chris Webber in 02, 2019 PG13, Grant Hill and Kevin McHale

what is keeping grant hill from the top 50 for you?