Top 10 Worst Moves Post Dwight

[p0peye]

+1

Having Physicist Forward was too advanced for its time.

Torture Chamber


btw in what world Nicholson at 19 is worst than Okeke at 16 or Jett at 11?

In a vacuum, no, Nicholson at 19 isn’t worse than Jett at 11 or Chuma at 16. But this list isn’t just about who busted. It’s about missed opportunities and what the picks represented. Nicholson was the first pick of the first rebuild and they passed on Draymond, Middleton, Fournier, and Barton. That set the tone for years of bad talent evaluation. That’s why it made the list.

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

[eyriq]

Torture Chamber


btw in what world Nicholson at 19 is worst than Okeke at 16 or Jett at 11?

In a vacuum, no, Nicholson at 19 isn’t worse than Jett at 11 or Chuma at 16. But this list isn’t just about who busted. It’s about missed opportunities and what the picks represented. Nicholson was the first pick of the first rebuild and they passed on Draymond, Middleton, Fournier, and Barton. That set the tone for years of bad talent evaluation. That’s why it made the list.

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

Fair, but the Magic weren’t just any team. They were launching a full rebuild with that pick, which makes the context matter more. When you’re starting over, you can’t afford to whiff on upside or miss badly on talent. Missing on Draymond or Middleton wasn’t unique, but doing it while kicking off a rebuild with Nicholson is the kind of failed player evaluation that haunted the team for years.

[p0peye]

In a vacuum, no, Nicholson at 19 isn’t worse than Jett at 11 or Chuma at 16. But this list isn’t just about who busted. It’s about missed opportunities and what the picks represented. Nicholson was the first pick of the first rebuild and they passed on Draymond, Middleton, Fournier, and Barton. That set the tone for years of bad talent evaluation. That’s why it made the list.

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

Fair, but the Magic weren’t just any team. They were launching a full rebuild with that pick, which makes the context matter more. When you’re starting over, you can’t afford to whiff on upside or miss badly on talent. Missing on Draymond or Middleton wasn’t unique, but doing it while kicking off a rebuild with Nicholson is the kind of failed player evaluation that haunted the team for years.

In that case, missing on Giannis in 2013 and then Jokić in 2014 tops the list.

[eyriq]

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

Fair, but the Magic weren’t just any team. They were launching a full rebuild with that pick, which makes the context matter more. When you’re starting over, you can’t afford to whiff on upside or miss badly on talent. Missing on Draymond or Middleton wasn’t unique, but doing it while kicking off a rebuild with Nicholson is the kind of failed player evaluation that haunted the team for years.

In that case, missing on Giannis in 2013 and then Jokić in 2014 tops the list.

Missing on Giannis and Jokic hurts in hindsight, but those were outliers. Giannis was a huge project and Jokic went in the second round during a Taco Bell ad. Nicholson was taken over proven college players with NBA tools. That’s not just bad luck, it’s a scouting failure at a key moment.

[pepe1991]

Torture Chamber


btw in what world Nicholson at 19 is worst than Okeke at 16 or Jett at 11?

In a vacuum, no, Nicholson at 19 isn’t worse than Jett at 11 or Chuma at 16. But this list isn’t just about who busted. It’s about missed opportunities and what the picks represented. Nicholson was the first pick of the first rebuild and they passed on Draymond, Middleton, Fournier, and Barton. That set the tone for years of bad talent evaluation. That’s why it made the list.

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

By better drafting you could literally had one of : Mitchell , Adebayo, Allen and SGA and probably one title in a bag alraedy.

2018 is worst draft for Magic in history, given what who they left on a table, despite fact he was player of need. Instead they drafted guy who played same position as their all star.

Talking about second round picks is hindsight. Even GIannis. SGA was too damn logical. Magic PG rotation was Shelv Mack and ... that's it? Can't even recall, i just remember having worst PG rotation of a decade- for a decade.

[p0peye]

Fair, but the Magic weren’t just any team. They were launching a full rebuild with that pick, which makes the context matter more. When you’re starting over, you can’t afford to whiff on upside or miss badly on talent. Missing on Draymond or Middleton wasn’t unique, but doing it while kicking off a rebuild with Nicholson is the kind of failed player evaluation that haunted the team for years.

In that case, missing on Giannis in 2013 and then Jokić in 2014 tops the list.

Missing on Giannis and Jokic hurts in hindsight, but those were outliers. Giannis was a huge project and Jokic went in the second round during a Taco Bell ad. Nicholson was taken over proven college players with NBA tools. That’s not just bad luck, it’s a scouting failure at a key moment.

Outside of Fournier, Draymond and Middleton were both second rounders, that reached All Star status with Jokić and Draymond probably becoming first ballot HoFs. I see no difference from drafting perspective and don't think any fans can simply claim their teams FO has made huge oversight in drafting if noone - teams drafting the players included - expected them to succeed to such levels.

If you want to say that drafting Fournier instead of Nicholson was something reasonably obvious as other teams considered and draft experts suggested in mocks, than yes - I could agree even though having Physicist Forward to me personally is way more cool than Do Not Google.

[eyriq]

In a vacuum, no, Nicholson at 19 isn’t worse than Jett at 11 or Chuma at 16. But this list isn’t just about who busted. It’s about missed opportunities and what the picks represented. Nicholson was the first pick of the first rebuild and they passed on Draymond, Middleton, Fournier, and Barton. That set the tone for years of bad talent evaluation. That’s why it made the list.

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

By better drafting you could literally had one of : Mitchell , Adebayo, Allen and SGA and probably one title in a bag alraedy.

2018 is worst draft for Magic in history, given what who they left on a table, despite fact he was player of need. Instead they drafted guy who played same position as their all star.

Talking about second round picks is hindsight. Even GIannis. SGA was too damn logical. Magic PG rotation was Shelv Mack and ... that's it? Can't even recall, i just remember having worst PG rotation of a decade- for a decade.

It’s pretty telling that every time we bring up a Hennigan-era failure, you scramble to shift the spotlight to Weltman. Nobody’s saying the current front office is flawless, but this thread is about the moves that did real damage, not just missed upside. Passing on SGA hurts, but it didn’t derail a rebuild. Nicholson was the first pick of a full teardown, and it kicked off years of bad evaluation and panic trades. That’s a different level of impact.

[eyriq]

In that case, missing on Giannis in 2013 and then Jokić in 2014 tops the list.

Missing on Giannis and Jokic hurts in hindsight, but those were outliers. Giannis was a huge project and Jokic went in the second round during a Taco Bell ad. Nicholson was taken over proven college players with NBA tools. That’s not just bad luck, it’s a scouting failure at a key moment.

Outside of Fournier, Draymond and Middleton were both second rounders, that reached All Star status with Jokić and Draymond probably becoming first ballot HoFs. I see no difference from drafting perspective and don't think any fans can simply claim their teams FO has made huge oversight in drafting if noone - teams drafting the players included - expected them to succeed to such levels.

If you want to say that drafting Fournier instead of Nicholson was something reasonably obvious as other teams considered and draft experts suggested in mocks, than yes - I could agree even though having Physicist Forward to me personally is way more cool than Do Not Google.

That’s fair to a point, but the context still matters. Nobody’s faulting the Magic for missing on Jokic or Giannis. Those were longshots. But Nicholson wasn’t picked over unknowns. He was taken ahead of guys like Fournier, who were already viewed as skilled, NBA-ready wings. That’s not just bad luck. That’s a miss tied to how the front office evaluated talent when the margin for error was small.

[pepe1991]

Entire league, many of the teams twice, passed on those guys with exception of Fournier whom apparently some fans come to hate.

By better drafting you could literally had one of : Mitchell , Adebayo, Allen and SGA and probably one title in a bag alraedy.

2018 is worst draft for Magic in history, given what who they left on a table, despite fact he was player of need. Instead they drafted guy who played same position as their all star.

Talking about second round picks is hindsight. Even GIannis. SGA was too damn logical. Magic PG rotation was Shelv Mack and ... that's it? Can't even recall, i just remember having worst PG rotation of a decade- for a decade.

It’s pretty telling that every time we bring up a Hennigan-era failure, you scramble to shift the spotlight to Weltman. Nobody’s saying the current front office is flawless, but this thread is about the moves that did real damage, not just missed upside. Passing on SGA hurts, but it didn’t derail a rebuild. Nicholson was the first pick of a full teardown, and it kicked off years of bad evaluation and panic trades. That’s a different level of impact.

Because Hennigan had several picks in poor drafts and there is nothing you can do about it as GM.


2013- viewed as one of worst drafts of all time. Grand total of all star selections by lottery picks- One. Oladipo ( who was good for one year ).
Alternative? GIannis. Who wasn't lottery pick and was hidden.

2014- he had two picks. 4th and 10th. Between 5th and last pick in first round, who is guy who Hennigan really missed on ? Zach Lavine and Randle are only all star players drafted after 4th.
Jokić was 41st pick. Several teams passed on him - several times.

2015- 5th pick. Devin Booker at 11 is only good player even drafted. It was complete disaster of a draft. Vast majority of players drafted in 2015 were out of a league in 5-6 years. 7/14 lottery picks were out of nba in no time.



2017 and 2018 were simply elite drafts where Weltman failed to capitalize. I'm not talking about some second round pick that turned into mega star, i'm talking about players that were in range of Magic's pick. 3 players are all stars drafted behind Isaac and end of a lottery.

2018 did derail Magic's future because it set them to another rebuild.
That off season disaster kickstarted before season even ended, in that win vs Dallas that turned to be pivotal for lottery odds.
So entering draft, it costed us 1 draft spot. That draft spot was- Luka Dončić.

But still, at 6th, they were in play for several great players, including guy who now is best player in the world. In time you had no PG on roster, you draft C, who busts out.

But your pick top 10 worst move was.. Andrew Nicholson.
So, not blown opportunity to draft two top 4 best players on planet Earth. No, not that. Andrew Torcher Chamber Nicholson. At 19. Who cares about blowing up back to back 6th picks on one-dimensional bench players. Andrew Nicholson. At 19.

And just for argument sake, Okeke 198 nba games and out of nba. Nicholson 285. So Nicholson is actually guy who was more valuable to nba than Okeke at 16. But you do you.

[eyriq]

By better drafting you could literally had one of : Mitchell , Adebayo, Allen and SGA and probably one title in a bag alraedy.

2018 is worst draft for Magic in history, given what who they left on a table, despite fact he was player of need. Instead they drafted guy who played same position as their all star.

Talking about second round picks is hindsight. Even GIannis. SGA was too damn logical. Magic PG rotation was Shelv Mack and ... that's it? Can't even recall, i just remember having worst PG rotation of a decade- for a decade.

It’s pretty telling that every time we bring up a Hennigan-era failure, you scramble to shift the spotlight to Weltman. Nobody’s saying the current front office is flawless, but this thread is about the moves that did real damage, not just missed upside. Passing on SGA hurts, but it didn’t derail a rebuild. Nicholson was the first pick of a full teardown, and it kicked off years of bad evaluation and panic trades. That’s a different level of impact.

Because Hennigan had several picks in poor drafts and there is nothing you can do about it as GM.


2013- viewed as one of worst drafts of all time. Grand total of all star selections by lottery picks- One. Oladipo ( who was good for one year ).
Alternative? GIannis. Who wasn't lottery pick and was hidden.

2014- he had two picks. 4th and 10th. Between 5th and last pick in first round, who is guy who Hennigan really missed on ? Zach Lavine and Randle are only all star players drafted after 4th.
Jokić was 41st pick. Several teams passed on him - several times.

2015- 5th pick. Devin Booker at 11 is only good player even drafted. It was complete disaster of a draft. Vast majority of players drafted in 2015 were out of a league in 5-6 years. 7/14 lottery picks were out of nba in no time.



2017 and 2018 were simply elite drafts where Weltman failed to capitalize. I'm not talking about some second round pick that turned into mega star, i'm talking about players that were in range of Magic's pick. 3 players are all stars drafted behind Isaac and end of a lottery.

2018 did derail Magic's future because it set them to another rebuild.
That off season disaster kickstarted before season even ended, in that win vs Dallas that turned to be pivotal for lottery odds.
So entering draft, it costed us 1 draft spot. That draft spot was- Luka Dončić.

But still, at 6th, they were in play for several great players, including guy who now is best player in the world. In time you had no PG on roster, you draft C, who busts out.

But your pick top 10 worst move was.. Andrew Nicholson.
So, not blown opportunity to draft two top 4 best players on planet Earth. No, not that. Andrew Torcher Chamber Nicholson. At 19. Who cares about blowing up back to back 6th picks on one-dimensional bench players. Andrew Nicholson. At 19.

And just for argument sake, Okeke 198 nba games and out of nba. Nicholson 285. So Nicholson is actually guy who was more valuable to nba than Okeke at 16. But you do you.

You keep throwing out raw pick numbers like they exist in a vacuum, but context matters. Yes, some of Hennigan’s drafts were thin, but that doesn’t excuse constantly misjudging talent, overpaying for flawed prospects, and making panic trades when things didn’t click fast enough. Isaac and Bamba were swings that missed, but they didn’t actively destroy team value. The Ibaka trade did. The Tobias dump did. Those were avoidable disasters that set the franchise back years.

You’re also pretending Nicholson was just a harmless miss, but he was the first pick of a full rebuild and they passed on multiple long-term NBA contributors. It wasn’t about him busting, it was about what the pick symbolized. That’s the difference between a whiff and a pattern.

Nobody’s giving Weltman a trophy for 2018, but let’s not pretend missing on SGA is equal to flipping Oladipo and Sabonis for a rental. One was a misread. The other was malpractice.

[pepe1991]

It’s pretty telling that every time we bring up a Hennigan-era failure, you scramble to shift the spotlight to Weltman. Nobody’s saying the current front office is flawless, but this thread is about the moves that did real damage, not just missed upside. Passing on SGA hurts, but it didn’t derail a rebuild. Nicholson was the first pick of a full teardown, and it kicked off years of bad evaluation and panic trades. That’s a different level of impact.

Because Hennigan had several picks in poor drafts and there is nothing you can do about it as GM.


2013- viewed as one of worst drafts of all time. Grand total of all star selections by lottery picks- One. Oladipo ( who was good for one year ).
Alternative? GIannis. Who wasn't lottery pick and was hidden.

2014- he had two picks. 4th and 10th. Between 5th and last pick in first round, who is guy who Hennigan really missed on ? Zach Lavine and Randle are only all star players drafted after 4th.
Jokić was 41st pick. Several teams passed on him - several times.

2015- 5th pick. Devin Booker at 11 is only good player even drafted. It was complete disaster of a draft. Vast majority of players drafted in 2015 were out of a league in 5-6 years. 7/14 lottery picks were out of nba in no time.



2017 and 2018 were simply elite drafts where Weltman failed to capitalize. I'm not talking about some second round pick that turned into mega star, i'm talking about players that were in range of Magic's pick. 3 players are all stars drafted behind Isaac and end of a lottery.

2018 did derail Magic's future because it set them to another rebuild.
That off season disaster kickstarted before season even ended, in that win vs Dallas that turned to be pivotal for lottery odds.
So entering draft, it costed us 1 draft spot. That draft spot was- Luka Dončić.

But still, at 6th, they were in play for several great players, including guy who now is best player in the world. In time you had no PG on roster, you draft C, who busts out.

But your pick top 10 worst move was.. Andrew Nicholson.
So, not blown opportunity to draft two top 4 best players on planet Earth. No, not that. Andrew Torcher Chamber Nicholson. At 19. Who cares about blowing up back to back 6th picks on one-dimensional bench players. Andrew Nicholson. At 19.

And just for argument sake, Okeke 198 nba games and out of nba. Nicholson 285. So Nicholson is actually guy who was more valuable to nba than Okeke at 16. But you do you.

You keep throwing out raw pick numbers like they exist in a vacuum, but context matters. Yes, some of Hennigan’s drafts were thin, but that doesn’t excuse constantly misjudging talent, overpaying for flawed prospects, and making panic trades when things didn’t click fast enough. Isaac and Bamba were swings that missed, but they didn’t actively destroy team value. The Ibaka trade did. The Tobias dump did. Those were avoidable disasters that set the franchise back years.

You’re also pretending Nicholson was just a harmless miss, but he was the first pick of a full rebuild and they passed on multiple long-term NBA contributors. It wasn’t about him busting, it was about what the pick symbolized. That’s the difference between a whiff and a pattern.

Nobody’s giving Weltman a trophy for 2018, but let’s not pretend missing on SGA is equal to flipping Oladipo and Sabonis for a rental. One was a misread. The other was malpractice.

Hammond did lot of crap that got him fired. And nobody defends his mess. Whiteboard thing alone was top 10 worst moves to me.

Weltman also should have been fired in 2021 when team walked out on him.

Weltman's first pick was Isaac, first trade was trading out 25th pick and "flattened out draft" that gave Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart between 25-30 pick.

I'm not throwing "raw pick numbers in vacuum".

In 2017 and 2018 Weltman draft defacto same player. 6'11 shotblocking, low usage, low scoring PF/C who can't put ball on the floor nor pass. People who know basketball from start knew guy is cueless in building functional basketball teams because in 2017 you already had powerhouse in Warriors, post Heat era, middle of Lebron era. Having 2 people that can't dribble and pass in starting 5 was impossible to implement in modern basketball.

At most, you can play 1 guy at time, and often you don't need any because versitality is key in playoffs and neither ever displayed anything more than shotblocking and okey rebounding. On offense both were walking-zeros in terms of skill.

And Fultz = Payton in Hennigan/Weltman case. More proof how out of touch they were in terms of understanding needs of modern basketball. I spent more than enough energy in my life from 2016-2019 debating how Payton -type player can't work in modern basketball. Just to reset whole debate from 2019-2024 with new bum.

[eyriq]

Because Hennigan had several picks in poor drafts and there is nothing you can do about it as GM.


2013- viewed as one of worst drafts of all time. Grand total of all star selections by lottery picks- One. Oladipo ( who was good for one year ).
Alternative? GIannis. Who wasn't lottery pick and was hidden.

2014- he had two picks. 4th and 10th. Between 5th and last pick in first round, who is guy who Hennigan really missed on ? Zach Lavine and Randle are only all star players drafted after 4th.
Jokić was 41st pick. Several teams passed on him - several times.

2015- 5th pick. Devin Booker at 11 is only good player even drafted. It was complete disaster of a draft. Vast majority of players drafted in 2015 were out of a league in 5-6 years. 7/14 lottery picks were out of nba in no time.



2017 and 2018 were simply elite drafts where Weltman failed to capitalize. I'm not talking about some second round pick that turned into mega star, i'm talking about players that were in range of Magic's pick. 3 players are all stars drafted behind Isaac and end of a lottery.

2018 did derail Magic's future because it set them to another rebuild.
That off season disaster kickstarted before season even ended, in that win vs Dallas that turned to be pivotal for lottery odds.
So entering draft, it costed us 1 draft spot. That draft spot was- Luka Dončić.

But still, at 6th, they were in play for several great players, including guy who now is best player in the world. In time you had no PG on roster, you draft C, who busts out.

But your pick top 10 worst move was.. Andrew Nicholson.
So, not blown opportunity to draft two top 4 best players on planet Earth. No, not that. Andrew Torcher Chamber Nicholson. At 19. Who cares about blowing up back to back 6th picks on one-dimensional bench players. Andrew Nicholson. At 19.

And just for argument sake, Okeke 198 nba games and out of nba. Nicholson 285. So Nicholson is actually guy who was more valuable to nba than Okeke at 16. But you do you.

You keep throwing out raw pick numbers like they exist in a vacuum, but context matters. Yes, some of Hennigan’s drafts were thin, but that doesn’t excuse constantly misjudging talent, overpaying for flawed prospects, and making panic trades when things didn’t click fast enough. Isaac and Bamba were swings that missed, but they didn’t actively destroy team value. The Ibaka trade did. The Tobias dump did. Those were avoidable disasters that set the franchise back years.

You’re also pretending Nicholson was just a harmless miss, but he was the first pick of a full rebuild and they passed on multiple long-term NBA contributors. It wasn’t about him busting, it was about what the pick symbolized. That’s the difference between a whiff and a pattern.

Nobody’s giving Weltman a trophy for 2018, but let’s not pretend missing on SGA is equal to flipping Oladipo and Sabonis for a rental. One was a misread. The other was malpractice.

Hammond did lot of crap that got him fired. And nobody defends his mess. Whiteboard thing alone was top 10 worst moves to me.

Weltman also should have been fired in 2021 when team walked out on him.

Weltman's first pick was Isaac, first trade was trading out 25th pick and "flattened out draft" that gave Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart between 25-30 pick.

The team that “walked out” in 2021 was the Hennigan core. Vuc, AG, and Fournier were all his picks. The return was Franz, Wendell, Jase Richardson, and Jett Howard. That wasn’t a walkout, it was a reset based on a clear evaluation of a capped roster. If you see that as a failure, you might want to read up on basic team building principles.

[pepe1991]

You keep throwing out raw pick numbers like they exist in a vacuum, but context matters. Yes, some of Hennigan’s drafts were thin, but that doesn’t excuse constantly misjudging talent, overpaying for flawed prospects, and making panic trades when things didn’t click fast enough. Isaac and Bamba were swings that missed, but they didn’t actively destroy team value. The Ibaka trade did. The Tobias dump did. Those were avoidable disasters that set the franchise back years.

You’re also pretending Nicholson was just a harmless miss, but he was the first pick of a full rebuild and they passed on multiple long-term NBA contributors. It wasn’t about him busting, it was about what the pick symbolized. That’s the difference between a whiff and a pattern.

Nobody’s giving Weltman a trophy for 2018, but let’s not pretend missing on SGA is equal to flipping Oladipo and Sabonis for a rental. One was a misread. The other was malpractice.

Hammond did lot of crap that got him fired. And nobody defends his mess. Whiteboard thing alone was top 10 worst moves to me.

Weltman also should have been fired in 2021 when team walked out on him.

Weltman's first pick was Isaac, first trade was trading out 25th pick and "flattened out draft" that gave Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart between 25-30 pick.

The team that “walked out” in 2021 was the Hennigan core. Vuc, AG, and Fournier were all his picks. The return was Franz, Wendell, Jase Richardson, and Jett Howard. That wasn’t a walkout, it was a reset based on a clear evaluation of a capped roster. If you see that as a failure, you might want to read up on basic team building principles.

Who resigned them?

That roster capped out two years prior.

[eyriq]

Hammond did lot of crap that got him fired. And nobody defends his mess. Whiteboard thing alone was top 10 worst moves to me.

Weltman also should have been fired in 2021 when team walked out on him.

Weltman's first pick was Isaac, first trade was trading out 25th pick and "flattened out draft" that gave Kuzma, Derrick White, Josh Hart between 25-30 pick.

The team that “walked out” in 2021 was the Hennigan core. Vuc, AG, and Fournier were all his picks. The return was Franz, Wendell, Jase Richardson, and Jett Howard. That wasn’t a walkout, it was a reset based on a clear evaluation of a capped roster. If you see that as a failure, you might want to read up on basic team building principles.

Who resigned them?

That roster capped out two years prior.

You’re leaving out ownership. After years of Hennigan failure, there was no appetite for an immediate teardown. Weltman had to prove the ceiling was capped before getting the green light to reset. That delay wasn’t mismanagement, it was working within real constraints.

[Fortune Teller]

The team that “walked out” in 2021 was the Hennigan core. Vuc, AG, and Fournier were all his picks. The return was Franz, Wendell, Jase Richardson, and Jett Howard. That wasn’t a walkout, it was a reset based on a clear evaluation of a capped roster. If you see that as a failure, you might want to read up on basic team building principles.

Who resigned them?

That roster capped out two years prior.

You’re leaving out ownership. After years of Hennigan failure, there was no appetite for an immediate teardown. Weltman had to prove the ceiling was capped before getting the green light to reset. That delay wasn’t mismanagement, it was working within real constraints.

I love when people present matters of pure speculation as if they are proven facts. There is zero evidence that ownership constrained Weltman when he got here, or that he didn't start the rebuild until he got some mythical "green light". Do you really think ownership fired Hennigan because he was doing such a bad job and then ordered the new GM to keep Hennigan's roster intact? You are speculating. Stop overselling every point you make. The constant hyperbole in every single post is seriously tiresome.

[eyriq]

Who resigned them?

That roster capped out two years prior.

You’re leaving out ownership. After years of Hennigan failure, there was no appetite for an immediate teardown. Weltman had to prove the ceiling was capped before getting the green light to reset. That delay wasn’t mismanagement, it was working within real constraints.

I love when people present matters of pure speculation as if they are proven facts. There is zero evidence that ownership constrained Weltman when he got here, or that he didn't start the rebuild until he got some mythical "green light". Do you really think ownership fired Hennigan because he was doing such a bad job and then ordered the new GM to keep Hennigan's roster intact? You are speculating. Stop overselling every point you make. The constant hyperbole in every single post is seriously tiresome.

It’s not speculation to factor in ownership influence. Every GM operates within those boundaries, especially after a failed rebuild. You don’t keep Vuc, AG, and Fournier for multiple seasons, make the playoffs, and then pivot into a teardown without internal buy-in. That’s not hyperbole, that’s how front office dynamics actually work.

[Bensational]

It’s not speculation to factor in ownership influence. Every GM operates within those boundaries, especially after a failed rebuild. You don’t keep Vuc, AG, and Fournier for multiple seasons, make the playoffs, and then pivot into a teardown without internal buy-in. That’s not hyperbole, that’s how front office dynamics actually work.

It’s kind of tricky to really hold this line of thinking though, considering that the Magic were bad enough to finish 5th last in 2016-17 and then got bad lottery luck and dropped to the 6th pick, same in 17-18. Weltman had made both picks in both years and he didn’t really make any bold moves to overhaul the roster or central players - that’s not really “win-now” action.

If anything I think Clifford’s hiring marked when they got serious about becoming more competitive, and that was 2 offseasons into their tenure. Vuc becoming an allstar that season and leading the team to the playoffs is probably what catalysed the FO and ownership into wanting to remain competitive instead of returning straight back to tanking and rebuilding.

I’m not a critic of WeHam, I think they’ve managed to surf their way out of that era and have set us up well for the future, but I also think it’s fair to say they wasted 2 summers and a season with “evaluation” rather than adding legit talent. That said - I think the franchise itself had a pretty tarnished reputation and lack of appeal to marquee talent at the same time. Durant basically scoffed at the idea of joining the Magic after he chose to ride GSWs coattails to a couple of championships. So maybe their hands were tied by past failures? I dunno, it’s probably as much conjecture as claiming ownership directives we’ve never seen nor heard quoted.

[VFX]

The argument you are attempting to make with this thread is that 9-10/10 out of the worst decisions of the last 13 years are all attributed to Hennigan. Sorry, but no.

The first 3-4 seasons of Weltman were questionable with some BAD decisions and indecisions. You could even argue the last 4 years of indecision on the trade market and re-signing terrible non value players for the last 5-6 seasons were just as bad even if they miss the top 10.

And no, saying that a decision in the moment wasnt bad because it equaled something later, in a roundabout way, doesn’t negate the actual decisions being made.

That’s like saying you are glad we didn’t draft SGA over Bamba because we now have Paolo or Franz. I mean sure but that’s like an argument an 8 year old would make. Way too many circumstantial events would need to take place otherwise without having the power of foresight. You have to judge the moves at the exact moment within context.

Also, the 2023 draft might go down as top 5 on this list within the next 3-4 years with how things have been trending. That was a crucial point for talent acquisition and as of now 1/2 of those lotto picks are unplayable. The other half are serviceable but without a real role. One was a reach and the other just had another rookie taken at their supposed position with little chance to get back into the lotto.

[Bensational]

And no, saying that a decision in the moment wasnt bad because it equaled something later, in a roundabout way, doesn’t negate the actual decisions being made.

That’s like saying you are glad we didn’t draft SGA over Bamba because we now have Paolo or Franz. I mean sure but that’s like an argument an 8 year old would make. Way too many circumstantial events would need to take place otherwise without having the power of foresight. You have to judge the moves at the exact moment within context.

Also, the 2023 draft might go down as top 5 on this list within the next 3-4 years with how things have been trending. That was a crucial point for talent acquisition and as of now 1/2 of those lotto picks are unplayable. The other half are serviceable but without a real role. One was a reach and the other just had another rookie taken at their supposed position with little chance to get back into the lotto.

Holy walking contradiction, if you’re going to judge the 23 draft “from that exact moment within context”, how are you determining it a failure on the night of the draft and why are you looking back now to make that determination - per your own reasoning? I’m not making a defense for that draft being good, just asking you to uphold your own standards.

[VFX]

And no, saying that a decision in the moment wasnt bad because it equaled something later, in a roundabout way, doesn’t negate the actual decisions being made.

That’s like saying you are glad we didn’t draft SGA over Bamba because we now have Paolo or Franz. I mean sure but that’s like an argument an 8 year old would make. Way too many circumstantial events would need to take place otherwise without having the power of foresight. You have to judge the moves at the exact moment within context.

Also, the 2023 draft might go down as top 5 on this list within the next 3-4 years with how things have been trending. That was a crucial point for talent acquisition and as of now 1/2 of those lotto picks are unplayable. The other half are serviceable but without a real role. One was a reach and the other just had another rookie taken at their supposed position with little chance to get back into the lotto.

Holy walking contradiction, if you’re going to judge the 23 draft “from that exact moment within context”, how are you determining it a failure on the night of the draft and why are you looking back now to make that determination - per your own reasoning? I’m not making a defense for that draft being good, just asking you to uphold your own standards.

Well that’s how we judge decisions obviously. That’s why I said “in 3-4 years”and used the word “might” if you read my statement speaking of context. Anyway… how is that statement not within context?

Because Jett Howard was a massive reach at #11, nobody mocked him that high, and he doesn’t look like an nba player?

Anthony Black was considered a point guard at #6, Corey Joseph started over him, Orlando just drafted another point guard, and signed a legitimate backup to Suggs in Tyus Jones.

Is that not enough context for you? As of now those are facts 2 years later whether people like them or not for two lottery draft picks. Up until this offseason this team desperately needed playmaking and volume shooting in the backcourt for a variety of lineups. Neither provided that.

That draft was important to rounding out the starting lineup and guys first off the bench. That’s not me saying that Weltman should have taken Maxey over Cole in 2020 or something. That’s just patently saying that the 2023 draft so far doesn’t look good within the context of where those players are relative to their picks given their roles on the roster.