Kuminga to SAC, is there a middle ground?

[LightTheBeam]

It's no surprise to me seeing PHX offer. That is an above average offer for a RFA. Kings offering any kind of 1st is silly. Let him go to Phoenix or take the QO unless the pick is Minnesotas 1st and heavily protected (lotto minimum, turns into 2 2nds)

They’ll call the QO bluff. The teams most interested in Kuminga aren’t shaping up to have cap room. The only team that’s really shown interest in him that likely will are the Wizards.

If the Kings don’t want to make a significant offer, cool. But going to offer near $20 mil a year and near $90 overall and having the FO staff reach out and promise a starter role and minutes don’t scream “we don’t care if we get him or not” to me. The Kings got plans for the guy. Got to pay the price

Well again, I've said all along, the Warriors should be jumping for joy any 1st is included here. The only reason one is, is because they are dealing with the most incompetent owner in the league.

We've hashed this out, and I am a broken record.. Maybe Kuminga will develop useful traits but right now he has none. The Kings are surely missing another non shoot/defender who wants the ball in his hands. 1 more will definitely make all the difference in our season.

The QO doesn't feel like a bluff to me. Warriors offering 2/40 TO and asking him to waive his NTC isn't much better for him, at least this way he will control his own destiny.

[gswhoops]

Can someone go through the BYC math showing how a Malik Monk for Kuminga trade works contractually?

Monk makes $18.7M next year.

Reports did not indicate Kuminga would be getting anything close to $36M.

That’s where the original trade scenario reported involved the Pistons absorbing Monk.

Fewer teams with cap space or a TPE to play that role now.

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

The only detail is that while the 7.5M was the original add in '23, it goes up with the cap. For 25-26 it's $8,527,000.

Did not know that -- thanks! So Kuminga for Monk straight up would work if Kuminga's deal starts at $22.5M.

[madskillz8]

Well, let me say that... It's already becoming the most boring storyline of the offseason. Warriors clearly has no intention keep him short or long term, yet does not want to give him for free. Kings and Suns like him but definitely not that much. Thus it became a stalemate that gets increasingly boring for the involved parties and their fans. I would genuinely be surprised if any team gets a significant contribution from what they got from this.

[NW]

It's no surprise to me seeing PHX offer. That is an above average offer for a RFA. Kings offering any kind of 1st is silly. Let him go to Phoenix or take the QO unless the pick is Minnesotas 1st and heavily protected (lotto minimum, turns into 2 2nds)

They’ll call the QO bluff. The teams most interested in Kuminga aren’t shaping up to have cap room. The only team that’s really shown interest in him that likely will are the Wizards.

If the Kings don’t want to make a significant offer, cool. But going to offer near $20 mil a year and near $90 overall and having the FO staff reach out and promise a starter role and minutes don’t scream “we don’t care if we get him or not” to me. The Kings got plans for the guy. Got to pay the price

Well again, I've said all along, the Warriors should be jumping for joy any 1st is included here. The only reason one is, is because they are dealing with the most incompetent owner in the league.

We've hashed this out, and I am a broken record.. Maybe Kuminga will develop useful traits but right now he has none. The Kings are surely missing another non shoot/defender who wants the ball in his hands. 1 more will definitely make all the difference in our season.

The QO doesn't feel like a bluff to me. Warriors offering 2/40 TO and asking him to waive his NTC isn't much better for him, at least this way he will control his own destiny.

QO leaves him with no Bird Rights and needing some team with $20 mil or so in cap room they want to spend on.

The Warriors deal gets him a salary at $20 mil or so. He also has a decent level of control. With one option year left on the deal (no matter if it’s player or team), no team is giving GS a decent trade offer if Kuminga or his reps say “I don’t want to play here”. They’ll look to deal him with teams he will want to go to or get offers that will make the Devin Carter deal look sweet

[OGSactownballer]

The end result will be Monk and a lotto protected first (likely the Minn first) for Kuminga at 23 or even 24 (to securely outbid PHX) and then someone will other be salary dumped or stretch/waived and Westbrook signed.

I absolutely like that roster far better than where the Kings sit right now.

Everyone gets something they like and nobody is hurt badly.

[xdrta+]

The end result will be Monk and a lotto protected first (likely the Minn first) for Kuminga at 23 or even 24 (to securely outbid PHX) and then someone will other be salary dumped or stretch/waived and Westbrook signed.

I absolutely like that roster far better than where the Kings sit right now.

Everyone gets something they like and nobody is hurt badly.

Warriors aren't going to hard-cap themselves for Monk.

[NW]

The end result will be Monk and a lotto protected first (likely the Minn first) for Kuminga at 23 or even 24 (to securely outbid PHX) and then someone will other be salary dumped or stretch/waived and Westbrook signed.

I absolutely like that roster far better than where the Kings sit right now.

Everyone gets something they like and nobody is hurt badly.

Monk breaks the Lacob rule - no contracts past two years (ie when Steph/Jimmy/Dray/Kerr expire)

[SNPA]

Monk to Indy.
Toppin/Saric/Lotto protected Minny pick to GS
Around 22m per JK to Sac.

Indy let’s Monk pretend he is Hali in this down year and gives their other younger backup PF a chance to get minutes.

Sac gets JK.

GS gets a useful PF/small C and a future draft asset.

[xdrta+]

Monk to Indy.
Toppin/Saric/Lotto protected Minny pick to GS
Around 22m per JK to Sac.

Indy let’s Monk pretend he is Hali in this down year and gives their other younger backup PF a chance to get minutes.

Sac gets JK.

GS gets a useful PF/small C and a future draft asset.

Aside from Saric not being able to aggregate until Sep 13, the Warriors aren't going to hard-cap themselves, which is what bringing Toppin would mean.

[Scoot McGroot]

This is rough math, but someone feel free to correct me:

Let's say Kuminga signs a flat 4 year, $90M deal. So his salary for 25-26 would be $22.5M.

For the Warriors, half that number (or $11.25M) would count as outgoing salary. Which means that GSW could take back a maximum of $18.75M in a trade without adding more salary (Kuminga's $11.25M plus $7.5M in buffer room under the new CBA's trade matching rules). That would be slightly short of what it requires to take back Monk (who makes $18.8M). So we'd have to add a minimum salary player to make it work, or Kuminga would need to make slightly more.

Thanks I didn’t know the buffer room would be so high.

The new CBA is a lot more forgiving on trade matching rules - it used to be 125% across the board.

The $7.5m buffer was set in 23/24, and has grown annually equal to the rise in the salary cap each year. It should be enough now to not require a minimum. Should be a touch over $8.5m this season.

[Scoot McGroot]

Monk to Indy.
Toppin/Saric/Lotto protected Minny pick to GS
Around 22m per JK to Sac.

Indy let’s Monk pretend he is Hali in this down year and gives their other younger backup PF a chance to get minutes.

Sac gets JK.

GS gets a useful PF/small C and a future draft asset.

Indy definitely doesn’t need Monk. And they need Toppin much moreso now with the loss of Turner. Indy is definitely not considering that now.

For the PG/SG spots this year, even without Haliburton, Indy is running Nembhard, McConnell, Jones, Mathurin, Nesmith, Sheppard, Furphy, QJackson, Peter, and Dennis. Plenty of bodies that they don’t need to invest heavily in a multiple year contract like Monk that they’d need to move next year.

[OGSactownballer]

Not sure how they “aren’t going to hard cap themselves” yet are still somehow going to land Melton and Big Al.

They are going for broke. The Jimmy contract was the giveaway to that and basically this infinity the last year or two they will have any opportunity to push. Hard capping will become irrelevant.

[ChuckDurn]

Not sure how they “aren’t going to hard cap themselves” yet are still somehow going to land Melton and Big Al.

They are going for broke. The Jimmy contract was the giveaway to that and basically this infinity the last year or two they will have any opportunity to push. Hard capping will become irrelevant.

There’s a big difference between hard-capping at the first apron (with acquiring Monk would do) and hard-capping at the second apron (which keeping Kuminga or taking less salary back in the sign-and-trade would do). They don’t mind being capped at the second apron (which still would enable them to get Horford and Melton), but if they’re capped at the first apron, they won’t be able to get those two.

(Or so I understand.)

[SlimShady83]

I just googled, does Kuminga really have a NTC

Quote from google: "But the Warriors have requested that he waive that implied no-trade clause"

Why would you give Kuminga a NTC?

[xdrta+]

I just googled, does Kuminga really have a NTC

Quote from google: "But the Warriors have requested that he waive that implied no-trade clause"

Why would you give Kuminga a NTC?

By rule, re-signing on a one year (or 1+1) contract gives the player veto power over a trade.

[Crazy-Canuck]

I just googled, does Kuminga really have a NTC

Quote from google: "But the Warriors have requested that he waive that implied no-trade clause"

Why would you give Kuminga a NTC?

I think it's automatic on 2 year deals unless the player waives it.

[SlimShady83]

I just googled, does Kuminga really have a NTC

Quote from google: "But the Warriors have requested that he waive that implied no-trade clause"

Why would you give Kuminga a NTC?

By rule, re-signing on a one year (or 1+1) contract gives the player veto power over a trade.

oh wow, interesting.

[LightTheBeam]

They’ll call the QO bluff. The teams most interested in Kuminga aren’t shaping up to have cap room. The only team that’s really shown interest in him that likely will are the Wizards.

If the Kings don’t want to make a significant offer, cool. But going to offer near $20 mil a year and near $90 overall and having the FO staff reach out and promise a starter role and minutes don’t scream “we don’t care if we get him or not” to me. The Kings got plans for the guy. Got to pay the price

Well again, I've said all along, the Warriors should be jumping for joy any 1st is included here. The only reason one is, is because they are dealing with the most incompetent owner in the league.

We've hashed this out, and I am a broken record.. Maybe Kuminga will develop useful traits but right now he has none. The Kings are surely missing another non shoot/defender who wants the ball in his hands. 1 more will definitely make all the difference in our season.

The QO doesn't feel like a bluff to me. Warriors offering 2/40 TO and asking him to waive his NTC isn't much better for him, at least this way he will control his own destiny.

QO leaves him with no Bird Rights and needing some team with $20 mil or so in cap room they want to spend on.

The Warriors deal gets him a salary at $20 mil or so. He also has a decent level of control. With one option year left on the deal (no matter if it’s player or team), no team is giving GS a decent trade offer if Kuminga or his reps say “I don’t want to play here”. They’ll look to deal him with teams he will want to go to or get offers that will make the Devin Carter deal look sweet

Looking at the landscape next year, looks like there could be 5-10 teams with serious cap space depending how things shake out. If his IG story today means anything, hes willing to bet on himself. Might turn out to be an awful decision, or may let him go where he wants and not be stuck with that player option and traded somewhere he doesnt want to be.

And that definitely possible, but Warriors will likely not care where he goes. Teams may say we will take the chance with 1 more year of control. The point again is that it's entirely out of his control where he gets traded to, and his option for next year. Warriors are really asking for a lot in the contract, especially considering its a guy they are valuing so highly in a S&T situation.

[LightTheBeam]

There’s a big difference between hard-capping at the first apron (with acquiring Monk would do) and hard-capping at the second apron (which keeping Kuminga or taking less salary back in the sign-and-trade would do). They don’t mind being capped at the second apron (which still would enable them to get Horford and Melton), but if they’re capped at the first apron, they won’t be able to get those two.

(Or so I understand.)

[

Assuming Kuminga gets a $23M contract. For Kings, his contract trade value would be $23M. For GSW, his contract trade value would be $11.5M

For Kings:
Monk $18.7M + $7.5M (matching allotment) = $26.2 allowable incoming value > $23M for Kuminga, therefore a valid trade

For GSW:
Kuminga $11.5M + $7.5M (matching allotment) = $19.0 allowable incoming value > $18.7M for Monk, therefore a valid trade

Kings would be hard-capped at the first apron. GSW would not be hard-capped.

So would they, or wouldn't they be hard capped taking back Monk?

[Scoot McGroot]

I just googled, does Kuminga really have a NTC

Quote from google: "But the Warriors have requested that he waive that implied no-trade clause"

Why would you give Kuminga a NTC?

I think it's automatic on 2 year deals unless the player waives it.

It’s the option year that matters, as it could turn the contract into a one year deal. If GS invoked the option extending. The contract to two years before any trade, it would remove the implicit NTC, and a receiving team would retain his bird rights.

#101 from Larry Coon’s sunsetting CBAFAQ.com

When the player is playing under a one-year contract (excluding any option year) and will have Larry Bird or Early Bird rights at the end of the season. This includes first round draft picks following their fourth (option) season, who accept their team's qualifying offer for their fifth season. When the player consents to such a trade, his Larry Bird/Early Bird rights are not traded with him, and instead becomes a Non-Bird free agent3. The player's consent is also required for any subsequent trades that season.