Scottie isn't going to be a #1 option superstar in this league

[junot111]

Problem is, it is easy to focus on the impact Steph has because it is on the offensive end, which is much easier to measure. But Draymond had the same kind of impact on the game as Steph, just from the defensive end mostly, but also in his ability to help create space for Steph on O.

I would consider them 1A (Steph) and 1B (Dray) in terms of superstars on that GSW team. That's why they are the two still there. The team recognized it.

This is why people think Scottie can have an outsized impact on the game. Like Dray, it will be in many facets of the game that are harder to measure, and are not picked up by the casual fan. Dray is an incredibly high standard. But the hope is Scottie could max out somewhere close.

Lol this type of take is why there's a fatigue with "advanced stat nerds" in basketball. You can make a case that Draymond is underrated, he's not only an elite defensive anchor but provides more value on offense than his single digit scoring suggests. But calling Steph and Draymond 1A and 1B is ridiculous, they are nowhere near the same tier. He's not even GSW's number 2 guy, Jimmy Butler is.

The whole premise of this thread was to push back on the notion that Scottie can be a #1 option. Referencing Draymond who played alongside GOAT shooters and scorers as an argument is just proving the OP's point. Scottie is not our Steph or KD, if he's our Draymond then we still need a real superstar

You're selling Daymond Short, it's not just us who look at Draymond as having impactful career that has aided steph Curry, media pundits/ GSW organization & Steph Curry himself will echo the same thing, & the whole premise of this argument is if Scottie isn't a 1A doesn't mean he can't be a franchise cornerstone ala Draymond green, nor was Scottie drafted as a 1A superstar & that it doesn't mean our coaching staff n GM don't have a right to call him a franchise player

Nobody calls draymond a franchise player for Gsw.

[DreamTeam09]

Lol this type of take is why there's a fatigue with "advanced stat nerds" in basketball. You can make a case that Draymond is underrated, he's not only an elite defensive anchor but provides more value on offense than his single digit scoring suggests. But calling Steph and Draymond 1A and 1B is ridiculous, they are nowhere near the same tier. He's not even GSW's number 2 guy, Jimmy Butler is.

The whole premise of this thread was to push back on the notion that Scottie can be a #1 option. Referencing Draymond who played alongside GOAT shooters and scorers as an argument is just proving the OP's point. Scottie is not our Steph or KD, if he's our Draymond then we still need a real superstar

You're selling Daymond Short, it's not just us who look at Draymond as having impactful career that has aided steph Curry, media pundits/ GSW organization & Steph Curry himself will echo the same thing, & the whole premise of this argument is if Scottie isn't a 1A doesn't mean he can't be a franchise cornerstone ala Draymond green, nor was Scottie drafted as a 1A superstar & that it doesn't mean our coaching staff n GM don't have a right to call him a franchise player

Nobody calls draymond a franchise player for Gsw.

“If Draymond is not back, we’re not a championship contender,” Kerr said at his season-ending news conference Tuesday. “We know that. He’s that important to winning and to who we are. I absolutely want him back.”

Steve Kerr summer 2023

[bballsparkin]

^^That doesn't make Draymond a franchise player. Just means he's really important to the team and hard to replace. Especially on a team like GSW who has a true franchise player in Steph.

[JB7]

^^That doesn't make Draymond a franchise player. Just means he's really important to the team and hard to replace. Especially on a team like GSW who has a true franchise player in Steph.

No, Dray is almost as much of a franchise player for GSW as Steph. There is a reason they didn’t dump him after all his bs, with the suspensions. They let Klay walk.

Problem is there are better metrics to measure performance on O then there are for D. Everyone always focuses on that winning shot, rarely do they focus on the winning plays.

[bballsparkin]

^^That doesn't make Draymond a franchise player. Just means he's really important to the team and hard to replace. Especially on a team like GSW who has a true franchise player in Steph.

No, Dray is almost as much of a franchise player for GSW as Steph. There is a reason they didn’t dump him after all his bs, with the suspensions. They let Klay walk.

Problem is there are better metrics to measure performance on O then there are for D. Everyone always focuses on that winning shot, rarely do they focus on the winning plays.

Because of Steph though. Draymond would not be nearly as valuable on other teams I believe. Yet clearly Steph would.

[junot111]

You're selling Daymond Short, it's not just us who look at Draymond as having impactful career that has aided steph Curry, media pundits/ GSW organization & Steph Curry himself will echo the same thing, & the whole premise of this argument is if Scottie isn't a 1A doesn't mean he can't be a franchise cornerstone ala Draymond green, nor was Scottie drafted as a 1A superstar & that it doesn't mean our coaching staff n GM don't have a right to call him a franchise player

Nobody calls draymond a franchise player for Gsw.

“If Draymond is not back, we’re not a championship contender,” Kerr said at his season-ending news conference Tuesday. “We know that. He’s that important to winning and to who we are. I absolutely want him back.”

Steve Kerr summer 2023

you trolling?

[JB7]

^^That doesn't make Draymond a franchise player. Just means he's really important to the team and hard to replace. Especially on a team like GSW who has a true franchise player in Steph.

No, Dray is almost as much of a franchise player for GSW as Steph. There is a reason they didn’t dump him after all his bs, with the suspensions. They let Klay walk.

Problem is there are better metrics to measure performance on O then there are for D. Everyone always focuses on that winning shot, rarely do they focus on the winning plays.

Because of Steph though. Draymond would not be nearly as valuable on other teams I believe. Yet clearly Steph would.

I don’t know if that is completely true. Dray carved out a lot of space for Steph to flourish. I don’t know if a lot of other players would have done that kind of dirty work to let another player succeed.

[bballsparkin]

No, Dray is almost as much of a franchise player for GSW as Steph. There is a reason they didn’t dump him after all his bs, with the suspensions. They let Klay walk.

Problem is there are better metrics to measure performance on O then there are for D. Everyone always focuses on that winning shot, rarely do they focus on the winning plays.

Because of Steph though. Draymond would not be nearly as valuable on other teams I believe. Yet clearly Steph would.

I don’t know if that is completely true. Dray carved out a lot of space for Steph to flourish. I don’t know if a lot of other players would have done that kind of dirty work to let another player succeed.

Draymond is a better Marty McSorely in my eyes. Your post makes it seem like Draymond sacrificed for Steph. He did alright doing the dirty work considering that's what his game is. Defence, passing and dirty work. Is Dennis Rodman a franchise player? Nope. Is he a HOF player that helps teams win championships. Yup. Two different things. Draymond is like Rodman IMO. Green would foul out if he played on the Raptors.

[dballislife]

draymond pretty much spent his career playing great d, putting up 10 or less inefficient points, and looking to pass the ball a lot and to 2 of the best shooters in history...i mean with his career 8 pts avg on 45% shooting, he was great but not that great, he literally needs to play with a 25-30 guy and another 20-25 guy to win

[ahollz]

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greendr01/gamelog/2020/

[tsherkin]

Fox can't shoot the 3. I would trade RJ for him.

I'd rather have RJ. Fox isn't an efficient volume scorer and RJ at least draws fouls and gets to the rim, seems to be improving as a playmaker, etc.

WILD.

Fox is a much better player. Would be a bad fit here salary wise and the fact that he is another mid range guy who doesnt fit next to IQ, but he gets to the rate at a better rate than RJ, shoots the 3 better than RJ, better playmaker than RJ, etc.

Fox is a career .324 FTr guy. His shooting splits are 47.0 / 33.0 / 74.6, with a career TS% of 55.7%.

In 25-26, he posted 56.0% TS (53.7% in the abbreviated sample with SAS after the trade), on 46.3 / 31.0 / 82.7.

He's not that dissimilar to RJ as a playmaker. He's not consistently better from 3 outside of the one season everyone likes to remember from him in 2023.

And RJ? Career .321 FTr, .312 with us in the 25-26 season. So no, Fox isn't meaningfully better at getting to the line. Also, RJ gets 33.5% of his shots in the RA on his career, 35.4% last season. Fox? 20.5% on his career, 20.7% last year.

[JB7]

Because of Steph though. Draymond would not be nearly as valuable on other teams I believe. Yet clearly Steph would.

I don’t know if that is completely true. Dray carved out a lot of space for Steph to flourish. I don’t know if a lot of other players would have done that kind of dirty work to let another player succeed.

Draymond is a better Marty McSorely in my eyes. Your post makes it seem like Draymond sacrificed for Steph. He did alright doing the dirty work considering that's what his game is. Defence, passing and dirty work. Is Dennis Rodman a franchise player? Nope. Is he a HOF player that helps teams win championships. Yup. Two different things. Draymond is like Rodman IMO. Green would foul out if he played on the Raptors.

Dray is more than just an enforcer. He is their D. He is the one organizing their D from the back line. Those championship years, GSW was not only a top offensive team, but also a top defensive team, primarily because of Dray.

[JB7]

draymond pretty much spent his career playing great d, putting up 10 or less inefficient points, and looking to pass the ball a lot and to 2 of the best shooters in history...i mean with his career 8 pts avg on 45% shooting, he was great but not that great, he literally needs to play with a 25-30 guy and another 20-25 guy to win

Again, this is the problem. Your focus, like many others is on the offensive stats for measuring Dray's value. Those don't pick up his true value. Just on offense alone, it is his setting up the offence with calls, picks or passes that helps it function, which many stats will not capture. And his greatest value is on D, which is harder to measure.

[Airmiess]

His comp was Draymond and Lamar Odom, so far he is in that echelon of players. They are trying to make him the guy but that's not his calling, imo.

[TheGeneral99]

His best case scenario is probably a Scottie Pippen type player.

His worst case scenario is probably a better version of Aaron Gordon.

[tsherkin]

His best case scenario is probably a Scottie Pippen type player.

His worst case scenario is probably a better version of Aaron Gordon.

"Better" is probably aggressive. Gordon is already a better shooter as a complementary player. And he also shares ball-handling duties for the Nuggets at times, is himself a strong defender and has considerably more offensive value.

"Worst case" Scottie is the level of offensive player he was in 24-25, which is much worse than Aaron Gordon, not a better version.

Best case, though. I mean, best case for Scottie is that he learns how to shoot. And if he does that, it opens up the potential that he can be worth 15 shots a game. Which in turn opens up his utility as more of an on-ball guy than Gordon, which becomes a little more interesting for the sake of comparisons.

[Raps in 4]

His best case scenario is probably a Scottie Pippen type player.

His worst case scenario is probably a better version of Aaron Gordon.

I think his worst case scenario is Draymond, and he's already there. Unfortunately, I think his worst case scenario will end up being his ceiling.

[Raps in 4]

^^That doesn't make Draymond a franchise player. Just means he's really important to the team and hard to replace. Especially on a team like GSW who has a true franchise player in Steph.

No, Dray is almost as much of a franchise player for GSW as Steph.

[TheGeneral99]

His best case scenario is probably a Scottie Pippen type player.

His worst case scenario is probably a better version of Aaron Gordon.

I think his worst case scenario is Draymond, and he's already there. Unfortunately, I think his worst case scenario will end up being his ceiling.

At 23 years old, I think a bit premature, but we'll see.

Draymond was a rookie at 22 years old.

[TheGeneral99]

His best case scenario is probably a Scottie Pippen type player.

His worst case scenario is probably a better version of Aaron Gordon.

"Better" is probably aggressive. Gordon is already a better shooter as a complementary player. And he also shares ball-handling duties for the Nuggets at times, is himself a strong defender and has considerably more offensive value.

"Worst case" Scottie is the level of offensive player he was in 24-25, which is much worse than Aaron Gordon, not a better version.

Best case, though. I mean, best case for Scottie is that he learns how to shoot. And if he does that, it opens up the potential that he can be worth 15 shots a game. Which in turn opens up his utility as more of an on-ball guy than Gordon, which becomes a little more interesting for the sake of comparisons.

Now tell me how Aaron Gordon was offensively before teaming up with Jokic, one of the greatest players of all-time who makes everyone around him much, much better. Can you give me his offensive stats in his prime Orlando years?

You don't think that if Scottie played alongside Jokic, his efficiency would increase?

I've had debates with you on this but look at Gordon's 3 point shooting in his career - 31% in 2020, 33% in 2021, 33% in 2022, 29% in 2024 and this year he had an outlier year and shot a mind boggling 43% from 3.

Go look at Gordon's fg percentage in his Orlando years, the dude routinely shot in the low 40s from the field. Now he shoots above 50% with Jokic.

Before that Gordon routinely shot under 30% from 3 in his first few years.

Aaron Gordon TS:

2017 - 53%
2018 - 53%
2019 - 54% (23 years old, same age as Scottie)
2020 - 52%
2021 - 55%
2022 - 60% (DENVER)
2023 - 62%
2024 - 61%
2025 - 65% (almost 30 years old)

THE BIG OUTLIER IS PLAYING WITH JOKIC.