Patrick Williams is having his worst year

[kulaz3000]

The thing is Patrick was never an elite athlete, but I'd say slightly above average who benefited from having a decent wingspan.

Even in the clip above, a lot of the dunks aren't exactly explosive, however, the stark difference to then compared to the most recent season, is that he isn't as quick off the floor.

[sco]

Can’t count on him on any plans right now other than as a potential obstacle and contract you might need to dump if the chance arises. Until proven otherwise you cannot count on him at all.

But I also do not count him out. I believe it is simply a matter of a lightbulb going off with him. I’ve always believed that. I just no longer believe in that bulb going off as anything more than an increasingly remote possibility. All the external variables have been removed.

But it would not be a shock to me if it happened. For that reason his complete lack of trade value could, theoretically, be a good thing. There is room on this future roster for a fully engaged player of P-Will’s type and natural talent.

Just can’t rely on that ever happening. As such, if for some reason we can dump him, it’s the right thing to do.

It's sort of funny because I would count myself more on the skeptical side of the Pat Williams debate for much of his time here, but I'm now a Pat Williams optimist compared to most people.

He's shown he can be a good open 3 point shooter, sure slow release, lower volume, but he can be pretty dangerous from there. That's valuable. He's shown he can be a good PoA defender. He's had a ton of health problem and hasn't had the chance to work out in the summer. Last summer especially, I even talked about it on my podcast, that he missed the whole off-season due to his foot and would come into the year out of shape and look worse at the beginning.

I don't know what will happen with him, I don't think it's a light bulb thing for me, I think he's just a slow processor in the basketball sense and the game doesn't come naturally. I don't think he's lazy, I think it just takes him too long to see what he should do and then it's too late. The decisions need to be made instantly, and he's just taking a second too long and the windows close. I do think that can get better with time, but I think there is a clear path to usefulness even if it doesn't.

If he just regresses back up to 40% from the three point line and strong PoA defense, and we get him to play within his skill range instead of trying to expand it, then I think he can be a valuable player again and potentially turn his bad contract into a neutral one in two years given the flat structure so will be shrinking as a percentage of the cap.

I think the other problem with Pat is what you alluded to. Getting him to go back to being just a 3&D guy is almost impossible. Billy spent a lot of energy getting him to try to be aggressive with the ball in his hands and attacking the rim. This goes back to his 2nd summer league, and he's always looked terrible doing it. It wasn't unreasonable for the Bulls to expect him to develop a handle and some moves around the basket other than trying to dunk, but Pat (for whatever reason...injuries, weight, etc.) never developed the requisite skills to do those things and is a pure mess on offense. Making a guy who they've tried to become a 2nd option scorer to change his game to become a 4th option scorer is almost never successful, but I'm rooting for the kid.

[sco]

https://youtu.be/IV0CPoQ8jrM?si=K_gYMhUhAvcyB7L2

Will we ever see this again?

He looks athletic.

Yeah, IDK, watching that, it looked like he wasn't dunking with a lot of reach to spare, and I think he lost about 3 inch of vert over the past couple years. Also, I think the lowlight video of missed dunks for Pat could run for an hour instead of 5 minutes. But what you didn't see on these highlights is Pat trying score off the dribble, it's all cuts and lobs...it was when Billy insisted he needed to be scoring off the dribble is when things started going wrong for him.

[ghostinthepost1]

I know it generally means nothing - but i'd love a patrick williams offseason work video/clip

Give us something to overanalyze besides summer league

He on the jimmy butler program no social media.

Only thing that’s active is the foundation page

PAT WATCH 2025! Looks taller? Is he still growing?!? Will he ever average 11ppg?! Probably not.

Read on Twitter

[sco]

I know it generally means nothing - but i'd love a patrick williams offseason work video/clip

Give us something to overanalyze besides summer league

He on the jimmy butler program no social media.

Only thing that’s active is the foundation page

PAT WATCH 2025! Looks taller? Is he still growing?!? Will he ever average 11ppg?! Probably not.

Read on Twitter

No dude. Matas is shrinking.

Hard to tell with positioning and Pat's fro.

[The Box Office]

He'll be traded eventually.

[sco]

He'll be traded eventually.

Maybe in a few of years, but to be valued as more than an expiring he'll need to improve. Not a ton, but definitely some.

Dude would benefit tremendously from Johnny-dribbles-too-much...can't believe, given how many of our guys have worked with him, it hasn't been on his radar.

[GoBlue72391]

The thing is Patrick was never an elite athlete, but I'd say slightly above average who benefited from having a decent wingspan.

Even in the clip above, a lot of the dunks aren't exactly explosive, however, the stark difference to then compared to the most recent season, is that he isn't as quick off the floor.

Exactly.

His athleticism was always overstated by many, even at his best. I've been saying it since the day we drafted him.

Having said that, he was certainly more athletic than he is now. He went from maybe being a slight plus in athleticism to now being an outright negative.

He moves and plays like he's a 15-year 35 year old vet. Jeff Green plays and moves younger than him.

[panthermark]

I heard Pat grew an inch over the summer!

[kodo]

We drafted him at 215 lbs, he was listed at 231 at training camp last summer. That definitely was a factor in how bad he looked athletically.
It will be interesting to see his training camp weight. I don't care for almost any other player but most $90M players don't have problems missing open dunks.

I also think his size gets overstated. There was a lot of talk about "physical gifts" and "size for the PF position," Patrick is barely bigger than Coby White.



He's a SG size player, I don't know why we're expecting him to get big man rebounding #s.

[Chi town]

I’m just glad he has to earn everything.

I fully expect him to flash and get hurt and then play bad all season and Noa will take all his mins.

[_txchilibowl_]

I'm still on board. With a little luck in the health department I think he is a more than capable 3&D asset who can help the team win games.

[sco]

I’m just glad he has to earn everything.

I fully expect him to flash and get hurt and then play bad all season and Noa will take all his mins.

I sorta like the idea of position battle between Pat, who we want to play up to his contract, and Noa, a young guy who needs to push hard to develop into his potential who we are giving a relatively high bar to surpass. The real problem is that there is a 50/50 chance neither is good.

[Evil_Headband]

I’m just glad he has to earn everything.

I fully expect him to flash and get hurt and then play bad all season and Noa will take all his mins.

I sorta like the idea of position battle between Pat, who we want to play up to his contract, and Noa, a young guy who needs to push hard to develop into his potential who we are giving a relatively high bar to surpass. The real problem is that there is a 50/50 chance neither is good.

I could see Billy giving both minutes. In the first few months of the last season, Billy gave Matas just a taste -- normally less than 10 minutes a game. I think he sat a lot in the second halves, IIRC. Maybe Noa gets the same treatment? The difference, though, is is seems like Noa is probably further away than Matas was. But things can change quickly. Who knows.

[sco]

I’m just glad he has to earn everything.

I fully expect him to flash and get hurt and then play bad all season and Noa will take all his mins.

I sorta like the idea of position battle between Pat, who we want to play up to his contract, and Noa, a young guy who needs to push hard to develop into his potential who we are giving a relatively high bar to surpass. The real problem is that there is a 50/50 chance neither is good.

I could see Billy giving both minutes. In the first few months of the last season, Billy gave Matas just a taste -- normally less than 10 minutes a game. I think he sat a lot in the second halves, IIRC. Maybe Noa gets the same treatment? The difference, though, is is seems like Noa is probably further away than Matas was. But things can change quickly. Who knows.

I think you are exactly right!

[Evil_Headband]

I sorta like the idea of position battle between Pat, who we want to play up to his contract, and Noa, a young guy who needs to push hard to develop into his potential who we are giving a relatively high bar to surpass. The real problem is that there is a 50/50 chance neither is good.

I could see Billy giving both minutes. In the first few months of the last season, Billy gave Matas just a taste -- normally less than 10 minutes a game. I think he sat a lot in the second halves, IIRC. Maybe Noa gets the same treatment? The difference, though, is is seems like Noa is probably further away than Matas was. But things can change quickly. Who knows.

I think you are exactly right!

In this scenario, if everyone is healthy (may never happen!), we could see an 11 man rotation:

Giddey, Jones
White, Dosunmu
Okoro, Huerter
Buzelis, Williams, Essengue
Vucevic, Collins

Maybe Smith beats out Collins.

If a wing or guard gets hurt, I could see Terry or Phillips jumping in with Essengue still getting his small taste minutes.

I think I like a large rotation as the crunch on minutes may help the play hard, fast pace strategy.

[Stratmaster]

He'll be traded eventually.

Who would take him?

[Stratmaster]

We drafted him at 215 lbs, he was listed at 231 at training camp last summer. That definitely was a factor in how bad he looked athletically.
It will be interesting to see his training camp weight. I don't care for almost any other player but most $90M players don't have problems missing open dunks.

I also think his size gets overstated. There was a lot of talk about "physical gifts" and "size for the PF position," Patrick is barely bigger than Coby White.



He's a SG size player, I don't know why we're expecting him to get big man rebounding #s.

I never expected big man rebounding numbers. How about not getting out-rebounded by guys like Coby and Zach?

[Stratmaster]

Can’t count on him on any plans right now other than as a potential obstacle and contract you might need to dump if the chance arises. Until proven otherwise you cannot count on him at all.

But I also do not count him out. I believe it is simply a matter of a lightbulb going off with him. I’ve always believed that. I just no longer believe in that bulb going off as anything more than an increasingly remote possibility. All the external variables have been removed.

But it would not be a shock to me if it happened. For that reason his complete lack of trade value could, theoretically, be a good thing. There is room on this future roster for a fully engaged player of P-Will’s type and natural talent.

Just can’t rely on that ever happening. As such, if for some reason we can dump him, it’s the right thing to do.

It's sort of funny because I would count myself more on the skeptical side of the Pat Williams debate for much of his time here, but I'm now a Pat Williams optimist compared to most people.

He's shown he can be a good open 3 point shooter, sure slow release, lower volume, but he can be pretty dangerous from there. That's valuable. He's shown he can be a good PoA defender. He's had a ton of health problem and hasn't had the chance to work out in the summer. Last summer especially, I even talked about it on my podcast, that he missed the whole off-season due to his foot and would come into the year out of shape and look worse at the beginning.

I don't know what will happen with him, I don't think it's a light bulb thing for me, I think he's just a slow processor in the basketball sense and the game doesn't come naturally. I don't think he's lazy, I think it just takes him too long to see what he should do and then it's too late. The decisions need to be made instantly, and he's just taking a second too long and the windows close. I do think that can get better with time, but I think there is a clear path to usefulness even if it doesn't.

If he just regresses back up to 40% from the three point line and strong PoA defense, and we get him to play within his skill range instead of trying to expand it, then I think he can be a valuable player again and potentially turn his bad contract into a neutral one in two years given the flat structure so will be shrinking as a percentage of the cap.

I think the change in optimism comes from the bar being set so low. When a #4 pick is drafted and does nothing, the hope now is "just don't be a negative on the court". That is a goal he hasn't achieved yet, but I too am optimistic he may someday not hurt this team. I would prefer it be because the Bulls somehow found someone, somewhere, who took the contract off their hands.

My bet is that Williams nevedr hits 40% from 3, on any significant volume, again in his career.

Of course, we can extend the same contract argument to Giddey if he gets 30 mil. I have little fear that Giddey at 30M would be any worse than a neutral contract 2 seasons from now. Does that make me an optimist?

[dougthonus]

I think the change in optimism comes from the bar being set so low. When a #4 pick is drafted and does nothing, the hope now is "just don't be a negative on the court". That is a goal he hasn't achieved yet, but I too am optimistic he may someday not hurt this team. I would prefer it be because the Bulls somehow found someone, somewhere, who took the contract off their hands.

My bet is that Williams nevedr hits 40% from 3, on any significant volume, again in his career.

Of course, we can extend the same contract argument to Giddey if he gets 30 mil. I have little fear that Giddey at 30M would be any worse than a neutral contract 2 seasons from now. Does that make me an optimist?

It's really hard to argue with any of that. I wouldn't count myself as an optimist, just as you said, a "low bar" optimist. He has a few things he previously showed that feel like they could make him an MLE type guy, and his contract will hit around the MLE mark in years 4/5. I don't remotely think he's an upside guy, but if he can just stay healthy and get into better physical condition, "role player" doesn't feel unreasonable to me.

I'd also probably prefer we dump Pat, but I wouldn't give up assets to do it.