RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

[Kawaii Leonard]

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Last time i checked SERIES do not imply a single game. then posts 2 games where Jordan shot under 40%

85 playoffs series vs bucks


87 playoffs series vs celtics

Arguing semantics. Did you not process my initial argument? And now you resort to this, when there’s written proof of what was said in sequence. Follow the trail instead of quoting posts out of context and discourse to bicker. You continuously quote me and remove what I was replying to and displace them into posts pages later. I wonder why. What’s even more hilarious is bledredwine resorting to the same antics, quoting my post and completely lacking grade school comprehension, and you had to quote that to kick the dead horse again. And to what avail? How about you reply to my response instead of embarrassing him again. What is it with you Lebron haters and just ignoring replies? This goldfish phenomenon is fascinating.

Why are you straw manning the results of the finals over a comparison of efficiency between two players? Mind you the poster I was replying to specifically cherry-picked Finals performances (specifically Lebron’s blunder in 2011—which no one refuted) while we were discussing efficiency and if Lebron can match Jordan’s while scoring as much. He exceeded multiple times. And are we comparing players or all-time teams here? Next, you’re going to tell me that Jordan would’ve bested the 2018 Durant Warriors with the help of Love, JR Smith, George Hill, and Tristan Thompson? Please apply some context if you’re gonna have an angle like that.

^Here you are, you can start from here.

[twyzted]

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Last time i checked SERIES do not imply a single game. then posts 2 games where Jordan shot under 40%

85 playoffs series vs bucks


87 playoffs series vs celtics

Arguing semantics. Did you not process my initial argument that you yourself challenged and quoted? And now you resort to this, when there’s written proof of what was said in sequence. Follow the trail instead of quoting posts out of context and discourse to bicker. You continuously quote me and remove what I was replying to. I wonder why. We got another Bledred Windbag partisan on our hands.

I remove what im not replying to. Nothing is taken out of context, you on the other hand might have to stop changing the meaning of your arguments from post to post as shown below.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. post 1

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.post 2

You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds.post 3

"Scantonbulls" He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned
Post i replied to

All within 5 post you go from talking about game 4&3 to series. As posts get quoted then the first posts are first to disappear from the chain. Dont expect people to go back and fact check all of your posts, just in case that you make a mistake and change your wording.

But i do see your point in the first post in the chain and wouldn't have made a challenge on it.

[Kawaii Leonard]

Spoiler:

Last time i checked SERIES do not imply a single game. then posts 2 games where Jordan shot under 40%

85 playoffs series vs bucks


87 playoffs series vs celtics

Arguing semantics. Did you not process my initial argument that you yourself challenged and quoted? And now you resort to this, when there’s written proof of what was said in sequence. Follow the trail instead of quoting posts out of context and discourse to bicker. You continuously quote me and remove what I was replying to. I wonder why. We got another Bledred Windbag partisan on our hands.

I remove what im not replying to. Nothing is taken out of context, you on the other hand might have to stop changing the meaning of your arguments from post to post as shown below.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. post 1

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.post 2

You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds.post 3

"Scantonbulls" He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned
Post i replied to

All within 5 post you go from talking about game 4&3 to series. As posts get quoted then the first posts are first to disappear from the chain. Dont expect people to go back and fact check all of your posts, just in case that you make a mistake and change your wording.

But i do see your point in the first post in the chain and wouldn't have made a challenge on it.

What is even your point? Any grade schooler can follow along the thread and realize what the points I was making about the ‘85 and ‘87 elim games. Games 4&3 back then meant, “with the season on the line”. Cmon. Stop derailing atp or reply to what I said to you instead man.

Strike issued for baiting, insults, backseat moderating etc etc

Because this is you 4th strike on the GB, you are now suspended from posting for at least 60 days. -b

[cupcakesnake]

Friendly reminder that personal attacks are not allowed. Disagree with each other's posts as strongly as you'd like, but don't insult the poster himself. And don't make bait posts that are simply meant to start fights.

I'm seeing a lot of "stan" and "homer" and "fanboy" and "nuthugger" etc. Most of that stuff is not among the most egregious insults we see around here, but when you use those terms to insult the other posters and diminish their opinion, it does qualify as baiting and personal attack.

Please help us get this thread on a better track. There's really no reason to be so dang hostile you guys, and it kinda sucks for posters who want to talk about the GOAT debate but don't enjoy the constant war that's happening here. Thanks.

Final warning for everyone ignoring the personal attack rules. If you can't have a civil conversation about who's better at a sports game, then you wont be able to continue posting on this site. Don't respond to this message just, you know, check yourself before you wreck yourself, my fellow basketball fans. It's only strikes and bans going forward.

[MavsDirk41]

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Manu/Ginobli, Dirks Mavs, Birds Celtics, Magics Lakers, Bad Boy Pistons, Bills Celtics, Thompson, Curry, Green….you actually dont think it was cool seeing these teams win year over year with the same core?

I believe we were discussing what a Dynasty means to you, and not if a team was “cool”. You’re naming off teams that completed the journey my friend (with the Jazz being the only exception), which is what we are pressing you about.

Edit: as for your post above, the fact that you have to cherry-pick (or worse for some other posters here), shows that the comparison is much closer than what the Jordan partisan fans incessantly try to pound into the sand. Some of them can’t even fathom that Lebron could be even in the conversation. That’s what grinds my gears as a fan of both, even though characters like michaelm can’t believe such an anomaly.

A dynasty to me is a core of players that win/have sustained success for an extended period of time. Yes, Utah didnt complete the journey by winning a championship but they made the finais twice and the WCFs 3 other years. For 13 years with Malone and Stockton (most of those years) they were a contender. They won 50 plus games 11 of those seasons.

As far as your second point, i think there are 4 players who have an argument for goat and James is one of them. He isnt my goat but yes i think he is top 3 all time and has an argument. MY point was we can post stats or records for Wilt, Kareem, Russell, Jordan, or James that no other player can touch.

[bledredwine]

Arguing semantics. Did you not process my initial argument that you yourself challenged and quoted? And now you resort to this, when there’s written proof of what was said in sequence. Follow the trail instead of quoting posts out of context and discourse to bicker. You continuously quote me and remove what I was replying to. I wonder why. We got another Bledred Windbag partisan on our hands.

I remove what im not replying to. Nothing is taken out of context, you on the other hand might have to stop changing the meaning of your arguments from post to post as shown below.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. post 1

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.post 2

You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds.post 3

"Scantonbulls" He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned
Post i replied to

All within 5 post you go from talking about game 4&3 to series. As posts get quoted then the first posts are first to disappear from the chain. Dont expect people to go back and fact check all of your posts, just in case that you make a mistake and change your wording.

But i do see your point in the first post in the chain and wouldn't have made a challenge on it.

What is even your point? Any grade schooler can follow along the thread and realize what the points I was making about the ‘85 and ‘87 elim games. Games 4&3 back then meant, “with the season on the line”. Cmon. Stop derailing atp or reply to what I said to you instead man.

He’s not derailing.
Almost every one of your posts has been derailing.

How long is it going to take you to realize that for every cherry picked lebron stat, there are at least five in Jordan’s favor and that his arsenal simply dominates this debate?

I’ve been watching you trip over your words for weeks now, trying to deflect through insult or falsifying stats, like the playoff series you thought you pointed out of Jordan shooting in the .300’s like lebron…. didn’t even happen. It all still comes down to longevity and excuses for lebron.

[DOT]

Interesting.

Because basketball reference says that Jordan shot .436 and .417 respectively. That first one being his rookie season, by the way
You must be desperate.

Care to link me to the sources you got those percentages from?
Reality says completely otherwise.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

This, of course, is pertaining to Lebron having multiple series where he shot terribly or even disappeared and Jordan lacking so, just to refresh your memory.

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.

And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

I'm just saying

ChatGPT is notorious for making up facts and numbers.

[DOT]

I actually think the fact you have to go back to 1987 and 1985 to even argue if MJ had a "bad" series is kind of incredible. Dude was consistently great, that's why he's the GOAT

I also think it shows just how strong his teams were that in his 3 worst FG% series (1996 Finals where he shot 41.5%, 1993 ECF where he shot 40%, and the 1997 ECF where he shot 38.7%), he won all 3

For comparison's sake, in LeBron's 3 worst shooting series (2015 Finals at 39.8%, 2007 Finals at 35.6%, and 2008 2nd round at 35.5%), his team lost all 3

I also think an interesting thing to note is, someone pointed out to me that basically every person who has LeBron #1 has MJ as #2, meanwhile MJ stans is a crapshoot, like some have LeBron #2, some have him top 5, others top 10, some say he's not even top 15

Which to me, I think anyone having LeBron below 3 is just clearly hating to hate at this point.

[The4thHorseman]

I tried to make it clear originally that dynasty is a factor in ones legacy… really trying to reach there arent you? Changing teams and winning has its own challenges, though even kobe had it harder after shaq left and being patient until another allstar waa got. Lebron just jumped to two allstars. Its still overall a feat of its own to win with 3 diff teams, but he hasnt created a dynasty culture anywhere, not the biggest factor but still a stain on what hes been able to show/prove. 3 in miami or cleveland or even LA would of done it but he doesnt get that checkmark.

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

I'd say your past quote below shows who the hell doesnt know what a dynasty is or basketball for that matter.

MavsDirk41 wrote:

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

First you said the one all-star 89 Pistons were stacked and now dynasties are considered teams who have no championships.

[One Last Shot]

I remove what im not replying to. Nothing is taken out of context, you on the other hand might have to stop changing the meaning of your arguments from post to post as shown below.



All within 5 post you go from talking about game 4&3 to series. As posts get quoted then the first posts are first to disappear from the chain. Dont expect people to go back and fact check all of your posts, just in case that you make a mistake and change your wording.

But i do see your point in the first post in the chain and wouldn't have made a challenge on it.

What is even your point? Any grade schooler can follow along the thread and realize what the points I was making about the ‘85 and ‘87 elim games. Games 4&3 back then meant, “with the season on the line”. Cmon. Stop derailing atp or reply to what I said to you instead man.

He’s not derailing.
Almost every one of your posts has been derailing.

How long is it going to take you to realize that for every cherry picked lebron stat, there are at least five in Jordan’s favor and that his arsenal simply dominates this debate?

I’ve been watching you trip over your words for weeks now, trying to deflect through insult or falsifying stats, like the playoff series you thought you pointed out of Jordan shooting in the .300’s like lebron…. didn’t even happen. It all still comes down to longevity and excuses for lebron.

Huh? It's clear that you are not arguing about FG% series but the game when season is on the line, below is the actual argument, you response to that with your first word as interesting, I will bold it for you.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. But I bet you’re one of those Jordan fans who prefers your player to underperform in the first 2 Rounds of the the playoffs, rather than in the Finals—especially against a more formidable/favoured, outmatched and experienced team.

Interesting.

Because basketball reference says that Jordan shot .436 and .417 respectively. That first one being his rookie season, by the way
You must be desperate.

Care to link me to the sources you got those percentages from?
Reality says completely otherwise.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/j/jordami01.html

This, of course, is pertaining to Lebron having multiple series where he shot terribly or even disappeared and Jordan lacking so, just to refresh your memory.

You actually can’t read, can you?



https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198504260CHI.html

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/198704280CHI.html

Yes, I’m the one spreading propaganda here, while you’re still sporting that hilarious sig of yours.
How and why are you lecturing others on the english language, when you’re this inept at reading comprehension.
And you wonder why I’ve stopped having a debate with you and your partisan fan club sources.

And in 2010 with Cleveland’s season on the line, he put up a whopping 15 points against Boston.

I even used your choice of words. And once again, no, Lebron had a 27 19 10 triple double. This just further proves you don’t fact check or even read your own copy and pasted propaganda. You can stop embarrassing yourself now. We are done here. At least I am.

If that argument confuses you, the phrase is color red and where did you get that LeBron scored whopping 15 points against Boston when the season is on the line in 2010? This was the actual game where LeBron posted 27 points, 19 rebounds, 10 assists, 3 steals and 1 block.

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201005130BOS.html

Is that a typo or you are just falsifying stats? Low comprehension? If it's a typo as the excuse you used before then what year are you referring to? Care to link me the sources? In 2008, LeBron scored 32 points in game 6 and 45 points in game 7 both games the season was on the line. In 2012, LeBron scored 45 points in game 6 and 31 points in game 7, both games the season was on the line. In 2018, LeBron scored 46 points in game 6 and 35 points in game 7, both games the season was on the line. I think that's all of LeBron's playoffs series when the season was on the line against Boston, in other series his team won by a sweep or 5 games if memory serves me right. So what year are you referring to?

[MavsDirk41]

LeBron won 3 titles and 3 fmvp's with 2 different teams in 5 years. That's a dynasty.

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

I'd say your past quote below shows who the hell doesnt know what a dynasty is or basketball for that matter.

MavsDirk41 wrote:

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

First you said the one all-star 89 Pistons were stacked and now dynasties are considered teams who have no championships.

You mean the 1989 Detroit Pistons that went 63-19 enroute to a championship? With a depth chart of;

Lambieer 4x all star
Dumars 6x all star and HOF
Thomas 12x all star 5x all nba HOF
Dantley 6x all star HOF/Aguirre 3x all star
Rodman 8x all defense 2x DPOY 2x all star HOF
Vinnie Johnson who was a great 6th man
Rick Mahorn
John Salley
James Edwards

Lol please explain to me how this team wasnt stacked with talent? I would love to hear a rebuttal from you lmao. If James played against them you would have a different tune im sure. Waiting on your rebuttal tho…

And yea im glad you put it in your signature cause to me the Jazz were a dynasty and Portland had a mini thing going on. But James winning two with Miami, losing in 2014, bailing on Miami, teaming up with two other all stars and winning one in 2016 is a dynasty? Lol ok man. Difference of opinions.

[michaelm]

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

I'd say your past quote below shows who the hell doesnt know what a dynasty is or basketball for that matter.

MavsDirk41 wrote:

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

First you said the one all-star 89 Pistons were stacked and now dynasties are considered teams who have no championships.

You mean the 1989 Detroit Pistons that went 63-19 enroute to a championship? With a depth chart of;

Lambieer 4x all star
Dumars 6x all star and HOF
Thomas 12x all star 5x all nba HOF
Dantley 6x all star HOF/Aguirre 3x all star
Rodman 8x all defense 2x DPOY 2x all star HOF
Vinnie Johnson who was a great 6th man
Rick Mahorn
John Salley
James Edwards

Lol please explain to me how this team wasnt stacked with talent? I would love to hear a rebuttal from you lmao. If James played against them you would have a different tune im sure. Waiting on your rebuttal tho…

And yea im glad you put it in your signature cause to me the Jazz were a dynasty and Portland had a mini thing going on. But James winning two with Miami, losing in 2014, bailing on Miami, teaming up with two other all stars and winning one in 2016 is a dynasty? Lol ok man. Difference of opinions.

Multiple players getting accolades on a team is both a cause and effect of having a successful team, the latter something which some LeBron fans and perhaps LeBron himself don’t seem to get. It is not actually unfair to build a team and play a team game. I am actually not averse to an argument that LeBron’s path to his titles post 2010 was more difficult than Jordan’s to his titles, but it was the path he chose including constructing teams with what seemed to him to be the best available talent, regardless of fit. Him being the overwhelmingly major factor in the success of his teams was imo a consequence of his choices and it is the opposite of a knock on Jordan that his team-mates had more opportunity to shine, although it is also my opinion that prime LeBron could take a bunch of journeyman players farther than any other player in NBA history including Jordan.

[ScrantonBulls]

I'd say your past quote below shows who the hell doesnt know what a dynasty is or basketball for that matter.


First you said the one all-star 89 Pistons were stacked and now dynasties are considered teams who have no championships.

You mean the 1989 Detroit Pistons that went 63-19 enroute to a championship? With a depth chart of;

Lambieer 4x all star
Dumars 6x all star and HOF
Thomas 12x all star 5x all nba HOF
Dantley 6x all star HOF/Aguirre 3x all star
Rodman 8x all defense 2x DPOY 2x all star HOF
Vinnie Johnson who was a great 6th man
Rick Mahorn
John Salley
James Edwards

Lol please explain to me how this team wasnt stacked with talent? I would love to hear a rebuttal from you lmao. If James played against them you would have a different tune im sure. Waiting on your rebuttal tho…

And yea im glad you put it in your signature cause to me the Jazz were a dynasty and Portland had a mini thing going on. But James winning two with Miami, losing in 2014, bailing on Miami, teaming up with two other all stars and winning one in 2016 is a dynasty? Lol ok man. Difference of opinions.

Multiple players getting accolades on a team is both a cause and effect of having a successful team, the latter something LeBron fans and perhaps LeBron himself don’t seem to get. It is not actually unfair to build a team and play a team game. I am actually not averse to an argument that LeBron’s path to his titles post 2010 was more difficult than Jordan’s to his titles, but it was the path he chose including constructing teams with what seemed to him to be the best available talent, regardless of fit. Him being the overwhelmingly major factor in the success of his teams was imo a consequence of his choices and it is the opposite of a knock on Jordan that his team-mates had more opportunity to shine, although it is also my opinion that prime LeBron could take a bunch of journeyman players farther than any other player in NBA history.

So are you saying MJ deserves credit for Pippen getting All-NBA awards?

[ScrantonBulls]

You clearly have no clue what a dynasty is lol

I'd say your past quote below shows who the hell doesnt know what a dynasty is or basketball for that matter.

MavsDirk41 wrote:

Utah was a dynasty in the 90s
Blazers had a mini dynasty late 80s early 90s

First you said the one all-star 89 Pistons were stacked and now dynasties are considered teams who have no championships.

You mean the 1989 Detroit Pistons that went 63-19 enroute to a championship? With a depth chart of;

Lambieer 4x all star
Dumars 6x all star and HOF
Thomas 12x all star 5x all nba HOF
Dantley 6x all star HOF/Aguirre 3x all star
Rodman 8x all defense 2x DPOY 2x all star HOF
Vinnie Johnson who was a great 6th man
Rick Mahorn
John Salley
James Edwards

Lol please explain to me how this team wasnt stacked with talent? I would love to hear a rebuttal from you lmao. If James played against them you would have a different tune im sure. Waiting on your rebuttal tho…

And yea im glad you put it in your signature cause to me the Jazz were a dynasty and Portland had a mini thing going on. But James winning two with Miami, losing in 2014, bailing on Miami, teaming up with two other all stars and winning one in 2016 is a dynasty? Lol ok man. Difference of opinions.

If the Jazz and Blazers of the 80s/90s were dynasties, then surely the Miami Heat who went to 4 straight finals and won 2 straight titles are a dynasty, right? And the Cavs who went to 4 straight and beat the 73-9 Warriors?

[ScrantonBulls]

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Manu/Ginobli, Dirks Mavs, Birds Celtics, Magics Lakers, Bad Boy Pistons, Bills Celtics, Thompson, Curry, Green….you actually dont think it was cool seeing these teams win year over year with the same core?

I believe we were discussing what a Dynasty means to you, and not if a team was “cool”. You’re naming off teams that completed the journey my friend (with the Jazz being the only exception), which is what we are pressing you about.

Edit: as for your post above, the fact that you have to cherry-pick (or worse for some other posters here), shows that the comparison is much closer than what the Jordan partisan fans incessantly try to pound into the sand. Some of them can’t even fathom that Lebron could be even in the conversation. That’s what grinds my gears as a fan of both, even though characters like michaelm can’t believe such an anomaly.

You trying to say Malone and Stockton weren't cool? C'mon man. What's next, the Kemp and Gary Payton duo wasn't cool? Wilt wasn't cool?

[michaelm]

You mean the 1989 Detroit Pistons that went 63-19 enroute to a championship? With a depth chart of;

Lambieer 4x all star
Dumars 6x all star and HOF
Thomas 12x all star 5x all nba HOF
Dantley 6x all star HOF/Aguirre 3x all star
Rodman 8x all defense 2x DPOY 2x all star HOF
Vinnie Johnson who was a great 6th man
Rick Mahorn
John Salley
James Edwards

Lol please explain to me how this team wasnt stacked with talent? I would love to hear a rebuttal from you lmao. If James played against them you would have a different tune im sure. Waiting on your rebuttal tho…

And yea im glad you put it in your signature cause to me the Jazz were a dynasty and Portland had a mini thing going on. But James winning two with Miami, losing in 2014, bailing on Miami, teaming up with two other all stars and winning one in 2016 is a dynasty? Lol ok man. Difference of opinions.

Multiple players getting accolades on a team is both a cause and effect of having a successful team, the latter something LeBron fans and perhaps LeBron himself don’t seem to get. It is not actually unfair to build a team and play a team game. I am actually not averse to an argument that LeBron’s path to his titles post 2010 was more difficult than Jordan’s to his titles, but it was the path he chose including constructing teams with what seemed to him to be the best available talent, regardless of fit. Him being the overwhelmingly major factor in the success of his teams was imo a consequence of his choices and it is the opposite of a knock on Jordan that his team-mates had more opportunity to shine, although it is also my opinion that prime LeBron could take a bunch of journeyman players farther than any other player in NBA history.

So are you saying MJ deserves credit for Pippen getting All-NBA awards?

Again you prove my point.

No, i am saying that Jordan decided or was persuaded he needed to play a team game to win, something it is possible to directly quote him as saying, that good to great teams were constructed around him with which he co-operated even to the extent of acceding to the recruitment of a player in Dennis Rodman who had been close to his direst enemy, that he also accepted a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to some extent very probably against his natural inclinations, and that this allowed Pippen to thrive and become the perfect complementary player to him which he might not have been had he come up in a different situation and was recruited as a veteran player. Of course Pippen’s eventual quality as a player was down to him, but whether he would have won 6 titles away from Jordan, or Jordan away from him for that matter, are different questions than them being great together which is not hypothetical.

I accept LeBron was constrained by the well below par franchise he was drafted by, and that he not unreasonably made the choices from 2010 going forward which he considered most likely to fulfil his ambitions, which btw seem to have been to win a large multiple number of titles, which staying at the Cavs would not have fulfilled whatever he might have done there. However his choices were his own and pretty much precluded a player like Pippen developing next to him. It is hardly Jordan’s problem if the elite players LeBron chose to team up with were a poor fit or injury prone, or if the coaches post the Heatles were suboptimal given Lebron also largely chose them.

[michaelm]

Gotta love the expansion era. I guess the 7sol Nash Suns and ‘10s Thunder were dynastic too, right? Or where do we draw the line? Reggie’s Pacers too! Appreciate this silver lining approach. Makes me feel much better as a Raps fan, we were that close to having it all..

Stockton/Malone, Duncan/Manu/Ginobli, Dirks Mavs, Birds Celtics, Magics Lakers, Bad Boy Pistons, Bills Celtics, Thompson, Curry, Green….you actually dont think it was cool seeing these teams win year over year with the same core?

I believe we were discussing what a Dynasty means to you, and not if a team was “cool”. You’re naming off teams that completed the journey my friend (with the Jazz being the only exception), which is what we are pressing you about.

Edit: as for your post above, the fact that you have to cherry-pick (or worse for some other posters here), shows that the comparison is much closer than what the Jordan partisan fans incessantly try to pound into the sand. Some of them can’t even fathom that Lebron could be even in the conversation. That’s what grinds my gears as a fan of both, even though characters like michaelm can’t believe such an anomaly.

I don’t doubt at all that people can be a fan of both players. My doubt concerns whether you are such a fan, and whether you actually observed Jordan in his time. Having watched him contemporaneously in my own relative youth brings its own bias of course, but so does having watched LeBron in his prime in your youth but not Jordan.

You have posted basically a single phrase saying you consider Jordan to be the GOAT, but numerous posts, some quite voluminous, in support of LeBron and taking issue with those who favour Jordan.

[twyzted]

This is getting ridiculous. I want to be more respectful on here in general, so I think I'm going to follow your lead and stop debating him. He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned, and he completely lied about LeBron's statline in the final game of the 2010 playoff series against Boston. There are multiple other fabricated stats in his long post on the previous page. This is a frequent pattern of him completely lying and fabricating statistics. It happens in nearly half of his posts on this subject.

I'm not sure if he is trolling or just really gets these things wrong so frequently. But it's impossible to debate with somebody when they are constantly fabricating statistics. I'm with you, I'm done trying to debate with him on this subject. I hope he starts arguing in better faith.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Last time i checked SERIES do not imply a single game. then posts 2 games where Jordan shot under 40%

85 playoffs series vs bucks


87 playoffs series vs celtics

Arguing semantics. Did you not process my initial argument? And now you resort to this, when there’s written proof of what was said in sequence. Follow the trail instead of quoting posts out of context and discourse to bicker. You continuously quote me and remove what I was replying to and displace them into posts pages later. I wonder why. What’s even more hilarious is bledredwine resorting to the same antics, quoting my post and completely lacking grade school comprehension, and you had to quote that to kick the dead horse again. And to what avail? How about you reply to my response instead of embarrassing him again. What is it with you Lebron haters and just ignoring replies? This goldfish phenomenon is fascinating.

No series/rounds have a whole other meaning then 1 game. Using semantics is just a cop out.

Since you enjoy your cherries so much, I’ll offer you some as well. With the season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87. post 1

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.post 2

You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds.post 3

"Scantonbulls" He completely lied about MJ's FG% in the 85 and 87 playoff series you mentioned
Post i replied to

All within 5 post you go from talking about game 4&3 to series. As posts get quoted then the first posts are first to disappear from the chain. Dont expect people to go back and fact check all of your posts, just in case that you make a mistake and change your wording.

But i do see your point in the first post in the chain and wouldn't have made a challenge on it.

What is even your point? Any grade schooler can follow along the thread and realize what the points I was making about the ‘85 and ‘87 elim games. Games 4&3 back then meant, “with the season on the line”. Cmon. Stop derailing atp or reply to what I said to you instead man.

My point is that you going from "season on the line, Jordan shot 38% and 30% in the 1st round of the playoffs in ‘85 & ‘87" to "You’re right Jordan didn’t shoot like that in the Finals but he sure did shoot 30% - 38% in multiple first rounds." first one being pretty vague on what you are talking about, the other implies Jordan shooting 30-38% in multible first round series... Keyword being series which implies to a series of games not 2 singular games.

So dont mention grade schooler and in the span of 3 posts completely change the word and meaning of your argument and then being angry that someone did not spend time to go through your posts to be certain of what you are trying to convey. That saves everyone a lot of time. hence this whole convo wouldnt have happen.

You should really start fact checking your sources. I know that you self-admittedly get the majority of your regurgitated cherry-picked numbers and slander from youtubers but it’s an eye sore now.

Lebron has on multiple occasions in the Finals had much more efficient series while maintaining within Jordan’s scoring range.

28 ppg on 57%
34 on 56%
30 on 59%

Are all higher than Jordan’s most efficient Finals of
31 ppg on 55% in ‘91

So 2 of those are series where he won a grand total of 1 game.

And as I mentioned before Jordan had multiple first round series where he shot 30% - 38%. Is it better to do that vs lesser competition in the first round or in the Finals vs more competent opponents.

Jordan has a grand total of 1 series for his entire career where he shot under 40%.

Why are you straw manning the results of the finals over a comparison of efficiency between two players? Mind you the poster I was replying to specifically cherry-picked Finals performances (specifically Lebron’s blunder in 2011—which no one refuted) while we were discussing efficiency and if Lebron can match Jordan’s while scoring as much. He exceeded multiple times. And are we comparing players or all-time teams here? Next, you’re going to tell me that Jordan would’ve bested the 2018 Durant Warriors with the help of Love, JR Smith, George Hill, and Tristan Thompson? Please apply some context if you’re gonna have an angle like that.

the first one is the most lopsided final in history, they lost by an average of 14 points being efficient in that isnt really impressive, teams tend to relax when they are winning big. The other series wasnt really close either so that gives 2 of the efficient series are not as impressive as 41ppg on 51% fg or 31 on 56% (55.8% is 56% not 55% if you are rounding the numbers, you know grade school and all that ) and actually winning the series. 2-4% isnt really that much of a difference.

[ScrantonBulls]

Multiple players getting accolades on a team is both a cause and effect of having a successful team, the latter something LeBron fans and perhaps LeBron himself don’t seem to get. It is not actually unfair to build a team and play a team game. I am actually not averse to an argument that LeBron’s path to his titles post 2010 was more difficult than Jordan’s to his titles, but it was the path he chose including constructing teams with what seemed to him to be the best available talent, regardless of fit. Him being the overwhelmingly major factor in the success of his teams was imo a consequence of his choices and it is the opposite of a knock on Jordan that his team-mates had more opportunity to shine, although it is also my opinion that prime LeBron could take a bunch of journeyman players farther than any other player in NBA history.

So are you saying MJ deserves credit for Pippen getting All-NBA awards?

Again you prove my point.

No, i am saying that Jordan decided or was persuaded he needed to play a team game to win, something it is possible to directly quote him as saying, that good to great teams were constructed around him with which he co-operated even to the extent of acceding to the recruitment of a player in Dennis Rodman who had been close to his direst enemy, that he also accepted a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to some extent very probably against his natural inclinations, and that this allowed Pippen to thrive and become the perfect complementary player to him which he might not have been had he come up in a different situation and was recruited as a veteran player. Of course Pippen’s eventual quality as a player was down to him, but whether he would have won 6 titles away from Jordan, or Jordan away from him for that matter, are different questions than them being great together which is not hypothetical.

I accept LeBron was constrained by the well below par franchise he was drafted by, and that he not unreasonably made the choices from 2010 going forward which he considered most likely to fulfil his ambitions, which btw seem to have been to win a large multiple number of titles, which staying at the Cavs would not have fulfilled whatever he might have done there. However his choices were his own and pretty much precluded a player like Pippen developing next to him. It is hardly Jordan’s problem if the elite players LeBron chose to team up with were a poor fit or injury prone, or if the coaches post the Heatles were suboptimal given Lebron also largely chose them.

No, that's pretty much what you were saying. The problem is your posts are unnecessarily drawn out with the strangest wording and sentence structure. You could say what you're trying to say with a post 1/4 as long if you were more direct and didn't try to impress with your vocabulary.

This isn't your worst post but we're so sick of the constant baiting, making things personal, and dragging everything into the mud. This thread sucks because of the number of posters who can't stop making it personal, taking little shots, and being generally disrespectful to others. The mods are no longer tolerating the style of posting that has taken over this thread. We're removing the worst actors, and will continue to issue strikes or warning when anyone can't be normal and nice to each other in what's supposed to be a fun basketball conversation.
- ccs

[michaelm]

So are you saying MJ deserves credit for Pippen getting All-NBA awards?

Again you prove my point.

No, i am saying that Jordan decided or was persuaded he needed to play a team game to win, something it is possible to directly quote him as saying, that good to great teams were constructed around him with which he co-operated even to the extent of acceding to the recruitment of a player in Dennis Rodman who had been close to his direst enemy, that he also accepted a playing scheme which took the ball out of his hands to some extent very probably against his natural inclinations, and that this allowed Pippen to thrive and become the perfect complementary player to him which he might not have been had he come up in a different situation and was recruited as a veteran player. Of course Pippen’s eventual quality as a player was down to him, but whether he would have won 6 titles away from Jordan, or Jordan away from him for that matter, are different questions than them being great together which is not hypothetical.

I accept LeBron was constrained by the well below par franchise he was drafted by, and that he not unreasonably made the choices from 2010 going forward which he considered most likely to fulfil his ambitions, which btw seem to have been to win a large multiple number of titles, which staying at the Cavs would not have fulfilled whatever he might have done there. However his choices were his own and pretty much precluded a player like Pippen developing next to him. It is hardly Jordan’s problem if the elite players LeBron chose to team up with were a poor fit or injury prone, or if the coaches post the Heatles were suboptimal given Lebron also largely chose them.

No, that's pretty much what you were saying. The problem is your posts are unnecessarily drawn out with the strangest wording and sentence structure. You could say what you're trying to say with a post 1/4 as long if you were more direct and didn't try to impress with your vocabulary.

So you are a literary critic among your many other obvious talents now ?. As I have said my prose style is what it is and has served me well both academically and professionally, and I am hardly going to change it on the advice of a youthful Lebron fan on a basketball forum, particularly one who has offered no rebuttal of what I actually posted. My vocabulary is also what it is, and I feel no need to impress anyone with it.