Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[dougthonus]

Wait. You think Coby is better defensively than Giddey...who led the team in combined blocks and steals? OK, you said "positional" defense. If you mean on ball positional defense, they both are bad.

Yes, I think Coby is better defensively than Giddey.

The only thing Coby is better at is shooting. Period. That isn't a little thing. But it isn't the only thing, or, I would argue, the most important thing when playing alongside elite scorers who are not primary ballhandlers.

I mean he's also a much better scorer, but he's a ridiculously better shooter when you factor in the release speed, ability to shoot off the dribble, step back, side steps, angles etc... Would think generally once you have two elite scorers that the next most important skills are exactly defense and shooting. Do you think otherwise? Do you see some other example where you have two elite scorers and the next best guy is known for his elite passing? That seems to be a very uncommon setup, no examples spring to mind for me.

We were talking about elite scorers who do not initiate the offense from the point. How do they get the ball?

Who is the elite scorer that has an elite passer setting them up? For the most part, the elite scorers are effectively playing the point or have a non descript PG that just dumps the ball to them. I can't think of anyone that has an elite passer that is unlocking their game. They typically get the ball through a non complicated entry pass / hand off / pick and roll, and then work their magic if they aren't the ones bringing it up the floor.

Not to say this can't work, maybe the Nash Suns were the last team set up this way?

[League Circles]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you just fundamentally saying that Giddey isn't a franchise player and to become contenders we need to get one? Because I think we all agree with that. The question appears to center on the notion that Josh Giddey, in particular, somehow makes it so that we can't get those types of guys? And then this theory attempts to envelop every player who "needs the ball" on the perimeter within it, and declare that they can't play with Giddey? When practically speaking Giddey, just like every other point guard, is simply the team's point guard. Who is likely going to be paid less then 33% of what the highest paid players make.

I am completely flummoxed by this whole theory. And I understand doug's follow up clarification, but he's not the only one who has been beating this drum. I took a few beats on that drum myself. Its just odd to me. He's a flawed player. That's why he's not, nor going to be paid like, a franchise player. I just don't see handwringing like this going on with other teams' 3rd and 4th guys. "Hey this guy has some flaws, we can't possibly hope to contend with any combination of star players, while he's on the roster, no matter who they are." That's stuff you say about 1 and 2 guys who are sniffing around for max deals.

Its kind of an odd dynamic that we talk about him as though he's supposed to be like a franchise player, even though we all agree he is not one, and that the Bulls aren't treating him like one, nor going to pay him like one. I honestly can't recall ever having a discussion quite like this on the board regarding any player. It really is unique. And interesting to talk about.

Yes Giddey isn't a franchise player, and while they're great to have, no we don't need one and likely can't get one ever because they are virtually impossible to get. A " franchise player" to me is basically a top 5 nba player.

Most good or great points, unlike Giddey, are very good at creating their own shot, and/or are good at catch and shoot, which I suspect Joakim Noah, err, I mean Giddey (lol) will never be.

There are zero NBA players who will make 3 times what Giddey will next year.

He is indeed an odd duck, because the vast, vast majority of guys running the offense for really good nba teams are wildly better scorers than Giddey, while often being relatively close in their ability to create for others, plus often being substantial better off ball shooters and/or defenders.

I think many assume that we can't content with "a star" and that we can find a way to get one, and assume Giddey can complement them well. I think those are all wrong. We can and probably have to find a way to contend without a true star, and even if we could get one, Giddey would probably immediately be of reduced value to us because the true star probably is better with the ball in his hands than Giddey is.

So Giddey needs 4 more specific guys around him than most nba starters. I'm ok with that. I want Giddey back on a 5 year deal to run the offense. I just think we basically need 5 very well fitting guys of his caliber including him, which is tricky. Fortunately we might already have some of those guys. But we gotta be able to pay all of them and have something approaching an acceptable bench behind those 5. I'm all about the 2003 Pistons model of team building. So I just want us to be conservative with his contract, which it looks like the Bulls are doing, so I expect him back for a 3-5 year deal at roughly 25 mil AAV which I'm fine with. If the figure gets up closer to 30 mil or more, he's basically unbenchable, which would profoundly limit our options for years to come.

At more like 20-25 mil aav, if it just doesn't work out, and we can't win enough and can't get the precise 4 needed guys around him, we can just make him a 6th man playing 25 mph or trade him to a team that can in a plausible, sensible way.

[MGB8]

I’m not as down as some here re Giddey, but also not nearly as up as others. He is an elite passer. He can create for himself at a sort of mid, Lonzo Ball level. He can shoot from set and improved in terms of quickness of release and decisiveness, but still more like a Bogans type than a good shooter.

The big question with him, IMO, is defense. Some of the clips from the Miami game were horrific. Davion Mitchell driving past him like he was standing still. Slow reaction time, too slow footed without the length to make up for it. Were those just isolated lapses that can happen, or more regular and unfixable flaws.

If he can be a “C” level defender at the 2, for instance, that opens up options. If he is relegated to being a C level defender at the 3 and 4, and worse against guards (or if switched on to them) allowing opponents to target him consistently — while on offense, not improving, and thus allowing opponents to slack of him…. He becomes a ceiling setter - a guy who ensures that you have a mid team, at best, if he is a starter. The Point Forward version of Vuc, but less offensively versatile.

[sco]

I’m not as down as some here re Giddey, but also not nearly as up as others. He is an elite passer. He can create for himself at a sort of mid, Lonzo Ball level. He can shoot from set and improved in terms of quickness of release and decisiveness, but still more like a Bogans type than a good shooter.

The big question with him, IMO, is defense. Some of the clips from the Miami game were horrific. Davion Mitchell driving past him like he was standing still. Slow reaction time, too slow footed without the length to make up for it. Were those just isolated lapses that can happen, or more regular and unfixable flaws.

If he can be a “C” level defender at the 2, for instance, that opens up options. If he is relegated to being a C level defender at the 3 and 4, and worse against guards (or if switched on to them) allowing opponents to target him consistently — while on offense, not improving, and thus allowing opponents to slack of him…. He becomes a ceiling setter - a guy who ensures that you have a mid team, at best, if he is a starter. The Point Forward version of Vuc, but less offensively versatile.

Yeah, the defense is probably the biggest open issue on Giddey. Teams in the playoffs will be much more intentional targeting poor and middling defenders. While Giddey improved significantly over the season to the point where I thought he is fine guarding the lesser of opposing F's. That said, and I've noted this before, our defense to end the season...without a POA defender {injured} or rim protector {Vuc played}...made our other guys look even worse than they otherwise would have. This is why I was very focused on resigning Jones and buying out Vuc. I just think that without those changes we really won't get a good sense of the playability of Giddey (and Coby) to win meaningful games.

[Chi town]

I’m not as down as some here re Giddey, but also not nearly as up as others. He is an elite passer. He can create for himself at a sort of mid, Lonzo Ball level. He can shoot from set and improved in terms of quickness of release and decisiveness, but still more like a Bogans type than a good shooter.

The big question with him, IMO, is defense. Some of the clips from the Miami game were horrific. Davion Mitchell driving past him like he was standing still. Slow reaction time, too slow footed without the length to make up for it. Were those just isolated lapses that can happen, or more regular and unfixable flaws.

If he can be a “C” level defender at the 2, for instance, that opens up options. If he is relegated to being a C level defender at the 3 and 4, and worse against guards (or if switched on to them) allowing opponents to target him consistently — while on offense, not improving, and thus allowing opponents to slack of him…. He becomes a ceiling setter - a guy who ensures that you have a mid team, at best, if he is a starter. The Point Forward version of Vuc, but less offensively versatile.

Yeah, the defense is probably the biggest open issue on Giddey. Teams in the playoffs will be much more intentional targeting poor and middling defenders. While Giddey improved significantly over the season to the point where I thought he is fine guarding the lesser of opposing F's. That said, and I've noted this before, our defense to end the season...without a POA defender {injured} or rim protector {Vuc played}...made our other guys look even worse than they otherwise would have. This is why I was very focused on resigning Jones and buying out Vuc. I just think that without those changes we really won't get a good sense of the playability of Giddey (and Coby) to win meaningful games.

Bingo.

Replace Vuc with a rim protector and Coby and Giddey won’t be an issue.

Giddey was rarely targeted post ASB. Herro cooked everyone in the play in. We have Tre and Okoro for those types now.

[MrSparkle]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying Coby/Giddey will be fine with a rim protector… they won’t be.

But Vuc has made us a very easy PnR target for 5 years straight, besides for when Caruso/Lonzo were on the floor. DPOY caliber guards who were able to defend pretty much every position.

Giddey was burned a lot by Mitchell and Wiggins, though. Huerter was cooked alive by Herro. Coby was picked on. Pat/Terry/THT were negative relief. Combined with Vuc, that’s a brutal defensive line, even if it was supposed to be Pat and Dalen’s calling card. They stunk.

I have more hope in Phillips, Ayo, Okoro on that end. Terry and Pat feel like Denzel Valentine failures.

Fundamentally, the Bulls build is goofy. You want athletic and size dominance as a baseline. Then you want skills and IQ on top of it. If you’re putting out a lineup with 3+ guys who move more like YMCA players than NBA athletes, then you can’t be surprised when a conditioned and athletic Miami team blows you out (whose YMCA defenders Duncan, Herro, SloMo don’t share a lot of floor time). The sad part is they were mediocre.

But hey- let’s run it back!

We’re 3+ years late on a Vuc trade, and imo Huerter, Collins, Coby had high value (by their standards) on draft night. Personally I thought it was a good time to get active and shuffle the deck. If you’re going with Giddey, I think you need him to be the 1 and only sieve in the main rotation.

[sco]

I wouldn’t go as far as saying Coby/Giddey will be fine with a rim protector… they won’t be.

But Vuc has made us a very easy PnR target for 5 years straight, besides for when Caruso/Lonzo were on the floor. DPOY caliber guards who were able to defend pretty much every position.

Giddey was burned a lot by Mitchell and Wiggins, though. Huerter was cooked alive by Herro. Coby was picked on. Pat/Terry/THT were negative relief. Combined with Vuc, that’s a brutal defensive line, even if it was supposed to be Pat and Dalen’s calling card. They stunk.

I have more hope in Phillips, Ayo, Okoro on that end. Terry and Pat feel like Denzel Valentine failures.

Fundamentally, the Bulls build is goofy. You want athletic and size dominance as a baseline. Then you want skills and IQ on top of it. If you’re putting out a lineup with 3+ guys who move more like YMCA players than NBA athletes, then you can’t be surprised when a conditioned and athletic Miami team blows you out (whose YMCA defenders Duncan, Herro, SloMo don’t share a lot of floor time).

But hey- let’s run it back!

You may be right, but IMO it's really important to find that out this season before we resign Coby. It's likely we'll be stuck with Giddey at that point, but at least we'd be able to pivot to find more of a 3-D guard to replace Coby to see if that gets traction. By year 3, best case Matas might thrive in the lead scoring role.

[dougthonus]

https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/6529661/2025/08/01/jonathan-kuminga-warriors-nba-free-agency-qualifying-offer/

The Kings / Suns are respectively offering 21M AAV (3 years) and 22.5M AAV (4 years) for Kuminga. GS doesn't want to take either trade, but Kuminga is willing to take the Kings offer per Marc Spears.

Not sure if these numbers have any influence on the Giddey negotiation, but thought they were worth noting here too.

[Chi town]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/281566/Kings-Warriors-Have-Pick-Protection-As-Sticking-Point-On-Jonathan-Kuminga-Talks

3/63 for Kuminga to Kings.

How does that effect Giddey?

[Infinity2152]

So we're going to keep skipping the fact that most post season teams have at least one average to below average defender starting? Often at the point guard position? Dame Lillard? Jalen Brunson? Luka Doncic? Kyrie Irving? Tyrese Haliburton? Jamal Murray? SGA is not even a great defender. Somehow excuses always get made how those teams contend with bad PG defense, but a team can't contend if Giddey is an average to below average defender making half their money. Less than half the contenders have guys you would consider good defenders starting at point, let alone every position.

The excuse would seem to be, "They're superior offensive players, so even if they're making twice as much, their defense or lack thereof doesn't matter". Not like we could add premier defenders or upgrade other positions with the extra $20-$30 mill gap.

Celtics were the only top contender with a great defensive PG I can think of offhand, and most of their lineup are great defenders.

Went to Ranker for a quick list of top PGs: SGA, Doncic, Curry, Jalen Brunson, Irving, Lillard, Cunningham, Haliburton, Ja Morant, Trae Young, De aaron Fox, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Lamelo Ball, Jrue Holiday were the top 15. Of those 15, I'd say SGA, Fox, Maxey and Holiday are the only good to great defenders. Maybe Cunningham gets there. Curry's average. Most are bad to incredibly bad.

[Evil_Headband]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/281566/Kings-Warriors-Have-Pick-Protection-As-Sticking-Point-On-Jonathan-Kuminga-Talks

3/63 for Kuminga to Kings.

How does that effect Giddey?

I don't think it does.

[MGB8]

So we're going to keep skipping the fact that most post season teams have at least one average to below average defender starting? Often at the point guard position? Dame Lillard? Jalen Brunson? Luka Doncic? Kyrie Irving? Tyrese Haliburton? Jamal Murray? SGA is not even a great defender. Somehow excuses always get made how those teams contend with bad PG defense, but a team can't contend if Giddey is an average to below average defender making half their money. Less than half the contenders have guys you would consider good defenders starting at point, let alone every position.

The excuse would seem to be, "They're superior offensive players, so even if they're making twice as much, their defense or lack thereof doesn't matter". Not like we could add premier defenders or upgrade other positions with the extra $20-$30 mill gap.

Celtics were the only top contender with a great defensive PG I can think of offhand, and most of their lineup are great defenders.

Went to Ranker for a quick list of top PGs: SGA, Doncic, Curry, Jalen Brunson, Irving, Lillard, Cunningham, Haliburton, Ja Morant, Trae Young, De aaron Fox, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Lamelo Ball, Jrue Holiday were the top 15. Of those 15, I'd say SGA, Fox, Maxey and Holiday are the only good to great defenders. Maybe Cunningham gets there. Curry's average. Most are bad to incredibly bad.

Most are still better at guarding the perimeter than Giddey, who is about Doug McDermott bad. If Doug could defend even passably, he would have been a long term starter in the league. He is / was a reserve. Meanwhile, Bulls also have Coby, who while better against 1s and 2s than Giddey, is still a below average POA defender - like a number of the guys you listed.

Lillard and Young, maybe Doncic are the only truly awful defenders in that “Giddey” tier. And all of them can shoot - primary scorers. Irving often plays lazy D but can step up when he wants.

[2weekswithpay]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

[sco]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

The shooting feels like the thing that may carry over best. He show 45% on 4 attemps for the last 29 games and 38% for the season. His form isn't perfect, but it did improve over the course of the season.

[Infinity2152]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

I'd argue if Giddey is regularly putting up 20 pts and 8+ assists, those are elite offensive numbers. He's not there yet, but I can see it. Giddey's assist rate dwarfs some of those guys and he certainly helps push the offense, making it better overall.

Plus Giddey will cost half what some of those guys cost. You could add a Mikal Bridges level defender with the extra money. Definitely fit Herb Jones or Caruso's salary in there.

His flaws are why he's not equal to a $50-$60 mill player right now. At half the price, should expect some flaws.

Example Giddey at $25 mill, Bridges at 37.5. $62.5 mill vs Curry at $59.5 mill and a random $3 mill player. Don't think the combo of Curry and random will outproduce Giddey and Bridges either offensively or defensively in total. Lillard and Trae Young are way worse, no comparison imo.

I'll concede that Luka, Steph, SGA would be considered worth more than both put together, probably. Not so sure the overall impact would be greater. And those guys are legendary, MVP level players, if we have to have that level of PG to contend, good luck. Giddey's as good overall as Jamal Murray imo and they won a championship. Heat have been contending for years, nobody knows who's starting at PG each year, lol. Lakers haven't had a great starting PG in years.

Point guards are rarely the best players on championship teams. Giddey can be on a contender, ideally, he's the third or fourth best player, that's all. Not the first and the guy who has to be a two way superstar to fit.

[Jstock12]

So we're going to keep skipping the fact that most post season teams have at least one average to below average defender starting? Often at the point guard position? Dame Lillard? Jalen Brunson? Luka Doncic? Kyrie Irving? Tyrese Haliburton? Jamal Murray? SGA is not even a great defender. Somehow excuses always get made how those teams contend with bad PG defense, but a team can't contend if Giddey is an average to below average defender making half their money. Less than half the contenders have guys you would consider good defenders starting at point, let alone every position.

The excuse would seem to be, "They're superior offensive players, so even if they're making twice as much, their defense or lack thereof doesn't matter". Not like we could add premier defenders or upgrade other positions with the extra $20-$30 mill gap.

Celtics were the only top contender with a great defensive PG I can think of offhand, and most of their lineup are great defenders.

Went to Ranker for a quick list of top PGs: SGA, Doncic, Curry, Jalen Brunson, Irving, Lillard, Cunningham, Haliburton, Ja Morant, Trae Young, De aaron Fox, Tyrese Maxey, Jamal Murray, Lamelo Ball, Jrue Holiday were the top 15. Of those 15, I'd say SGA, Fox, Maxey and Holiday are the only good to great defenders. Maybe Cunningham gets there. Curry's average. Most are bad to incredibly bad.

Fox isn't very good, I don't think. Average at his best, but mostly a below average one. SGA isn't a liability with his length/deflections alone, and yeah Holiday is just great in every facet on that end. Not too sure about the others. One good thing about Giddey is his size, which makes it easier to hide him. The footspeed can be worrisome though if he gets stranded on an island against a quick guard.

[2weekswithpay]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

The shooting feels like the thing that may carry over best. He show 45% on 4 attemps for the last 29 games and 38% for the season. His form isn't perfect, but it did improve over the course of the season.

I'm looking at more than percentages in this case. Giddey isn't a threat to shoot pullups or stepbacks. Few perimeter players now are capable of creating quality offense without being a threat to shoot off the dribble.

[2weekswithpay]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

I'd argue if Giddey is regularly putting up 20 pts and 8+ assists, those are elite offensive numbers. He's not there yet, but I can see it. Giddey's assist rate dwarfs some of those guys and he certainly helps push the offense, making it better overall.

Plus Giddey will cost half what some of those guys cost. You could add a Mikal Bridges level defender with the extra money. Definitely fit Herb Jones or Caruso's salary in there.

His flaws are why he's not equal to a $50-$60 mill player right now. At half the price, should expect some flaws.

Example Giddey at $25 mill, Bridges at 37.5. $62.5 mill vs Curry at $59.5 mill and a random $3 mill player. Don't think the combo of Curry and random will outproduce Giddey and Bridges either offensively or defensively in total. Lillard and Trae Young are way worse, no comparison imo.

I'll concede that Luka, Steph, SGA would be considered worth more than both put together, probably. Not so sure the overall impact would be greater. And those guys are legendary, MVP level players, if we have to have that level of PG to contend, good luck. Giddey's as good overall as Jamal Murray imo and they won a championship. Heat have been contending for years, nobody knows who's starting at PG each year, lol. Lakers haven't had a great starting PG in years.

Point guards are rarely the best players on championship teams. Giddey can be on a contender, ideally, he's the third or fourth best player, that's all. Not the first and the guy who has to be a two way superstar to fit.

Elite numbers and generating elite offense aren't the same. Giddey and Coby had career best stretches post-ASB, yet the Bulls were only an average offense during that time.

Giddey costing half as much is whatever IMO. Paying double is worth it for elite 1st or 2nd options.

Statistical production no, but Curry's on-court impact surpasses both Giddey and Bridges combined IMO. Hence, I'm taking Curry over Giddey and Bridges.

Giddey might be a better contract than Murray, but I wouldn't consider him a better player. Murray isn't elite, but he can play off Jokic in ways that Giddey can't largely due to the difference in shooting ability. The Lakers don't need a PG. Lebron and now Luka initiate the offense, so the Lakers don't need a starting level PG.

If Giddey is the 3rd or 4th best player, you're probably looking to trade him like OKC did. Giddey's game isn't built to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender.

[Infinity2152]

I wouldn't say that those players being bad defenders doesn't matter. However, those guys are providing elite-level offense, and players who generate elite offense tend to be worth overlooking the bad defense. The few players listed that aren't elite offensive engines have the skillset to complement another great player.

I think shooting is still Giddey's biggest issue, not defense, since the lack of shooting puts a cap on his offense. Giddey can be on a contender, it's just that the better the team, the more expendable Giddey is.

I'd argue if Giddey is regularly putting up 20 pts and 8+ assists, those are elite offensive numbers. He's not there yet, but I can see it. Giddey's assist rate dwarfs some of those guys and he certainly helps push the offense, making it better overall.

Plus Giddey will cost half what some of those guys cost. You could add a Mikal Bridges level defender with the extra money. Definitely fit Herb Jones or Caruso's salary in there.

His flaws are why he's not equal to a $50-$60 mill player right now. At half the price, should expect some flaws.

Example Giddey at $25 mill, Bridges at 37.5. $62.5 mill vs Curry at $59.5 mill and a random $3 mill player. Don't think the combo of Curry and random will outproduce Giddey and Bridges either offensively or defensively in total. Lillard and Trae Young are way worse, no comparison imo.

I'll concede that Luka, Steph, SGA would be considered worth more than both put together, probably. Not so sure the overall impact would be greater. And those guys are legendary, MVP level players, if we have to have that level of PG to contend, good luck. Giddey's as good overall as Jamal Murray imo and they won a championship. Heat have been contending for years, nobody knows who's starting at PG each year, lol. Lakers haven't had a great starting PG in years.

Point guards are rarely the best players on championship teams. Giddey can be on a contender, ideally, he's the third or fourth best player, that's all. Not the first and the guy who has to be a two way superstar to fit.

Elite numbers and generating elite offense aren't the same. Giddey and Coby had career best stretches post-ASB, yet the Bulls were only an average offense during that time.

Giddey costing half as much is whatever IMO. Paying double is worth it for elite 1st or 2nd options.

Statistical production no, but Curry's on-court impact surpasses both Giddey and Bridges combined IMO. Hence, I'm taking Curry over Giddey and Bridges.

Giddey might be a better contract than Murray, but I wouldn't consider him a better player. Murray isn't elite, but he can play off Jokic in ways that Giddey can't largely due to the difference in shooting ability. The Lakers don't need a PG. Lebron and now Luka initiate the offense, so the Lakers don't need a starting level PG.

If Giddey is the 3rd or 4th best player, you're probably looking to trade him like OKC did. Giddey's game isn't built to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender.

OKC? The team that just paid Caruso $20 mill to come off the bench? Did they ask him to be the third or fourth best player on a contender for $20 mill? Somehow they can survive paying Caruso $20 mill and win a championship, but anything over $22 mill for Giddey dooms the Bulls to failure. Giddey's game isn't built to play offball with another primary point guard, how about that being a bigger factor? He' a PG, SGA is a PG. They don't need two starting PG's who need the ball. Caruso comes off the bench and is effective without scoring or assists. OKC didn't need that. We do.

So you're going to build your team with all elite options? Explain how you'd afford that. 5 $50-$60 mill players better than Giddey? $250 mill in the starting lineup. Murray doesn't pass like Giddey, never came close to the assist ratio. I look for passing from my point guards more than scoring, so I give the edge to Giddey, especially at the same age. Giddey also far out rebounds Murray, which helps the team and has to count. Better shooter, works better with Jokic than Giddey would sure, would not be better if he needed to lead the team in assists and run the offense, imo. Jokic makes him viable as a starter on a contender. He averages less than 5 assists per game, didn't have a season with even 5 his first 5 years. We'd be talking Giddey plus another $25 mill (equal level) player vs Murray anyway.

I said Curry was legendary. So is Doncic and probably SGA. Now let's talk about the other 12 guys in the top 15 that are not going to outproduce Giddey and Bridges on a contender. Lillard. Kyrie. Haliburton. You're severely underrating Giddey's and Bridges impact playing a combined 70 minutes a game vs Lillard or Morant playing 35 minutes and a $3 mill vet min player playing 35 minutes in Bridges place. If we're going to focus on how much salary matters, it matters all around. You don't get to be $40 mill over the cap and compare value of players. If we're paying what the Warriors were paying in luxury tax, we could add $180 mill to $25 mill Giddey, lmao! He could be the fifth highest paid player.

Warriors would probably break the phone answering, we offered Giddey for Kuminga in a straight $25 mill S&T. Trust, that contending team would not worry about paying Gidey $25 mill sinking their playoff hopes. And they're giving up Kuminga just to get that deal, I think they do it in a heartbeat.

[2weekswithpay]

I'd argue if Giddey is regularly putting up 20 pts and 8+ assists, those are elite offensive numbers. He's not there yet, but I can see it. Giddey's assist rate dwarfs some of those guys and he certainly helps push the offense, making it better overall.

Plus Giddey will cost half what some of those guys cost. You could add a Mikal Bridges level defender with the extra money. Definitely fit Herb Jones or Caruso's salary in there.

His flaws are why he's not equal to a $50-$60 mill player right now. At half the price, should expect some flaws.

Example Giddey at $25 mill, Bridges at 37.5. $62.5 mill vs Curry at $59.5 mill and a random $3 mill player. Don't think the combo of Curry and random will outproduce Giddey and Bridges either offensively or defensively in total. Lillard and Trae Young are way worse, no comparison imo.

I'll concede that Luka, Steph, SGA would be considered worth more than both put together, probably. Not so sure the overall impact would be greater. And those guys are legendary, MVP level players, if we have to have that level of PG to contend, good luck. Giddey's as good overall as Jamal Murray imo and they won a championship. Heat have been contending for years, nobody knows who's starting at PG each year, lol. Lakers haven't had a great starting PG in years.

Point guards are rarely the best players on championship teams. Giddey can be on a contender, ideally, he's the third or fourth best player, that's all. Not the first and the guy who has to be a two way superstar to fit.

Elite numbers and generating elite offense aren't the same. Giddey and Coby had career best stretches post-ASB, yet the Bulls were only an average offense during that time.

Giddey costing half as much is whatever IMO. Paying double is worth it for elite 1st or 2nd options.

Statistical production no, but Curry's on-court impact surpasses both Giddey and Bridges combined IMO. Hence, I'm taking Curry over Giddey and Bridges.

Giddey might be a better contract than Murray, but I wouldn't consider him a better player. Murray isn't elite, but he can play off Jokic in ways that Giddey can't largely due to the difference in shooting ability. The Lakers don't need a PG. Lebron and now Luka initiate the offense, so the Lakers don't need a starting level PG.

If Giddey is the 3rd or 4th best player, you're probably looking to trade him like OKC did. Giddey's game isn't built to be the 3rd or 4th best player on a contender.

OKC? The team that just paid Caruso $20 mill to come off the bench? Did they ask him to be the third or fourth best player on a contender for $20 mill? Somehow they can survive paying Caruso $20 mill and win a championship, but anything over $22 mill for Giddey dooms the Bulls to failure. Giddey's game isn't built to run with another primary point guard, how about that being a bigger factor? He' a PG, SGA is a PG. They don't need two starting PG's who need the ball. Caruso comes off the bench and is effective without scoring or assists. OKC didn't need that. We do.

So you're going to build your team with all elite options? Explain how you'd afford that. 5 $50-$60 mill players better than Giddey? $250 mill in the starting lineup. Murray doesn't pass like Giddey, never came close to the assist ratio. I look for passing from my point guards more than scoring, so I give the edge to Giddey, especially at the same age. Giddey also far out rebounds Murray, which helps the team and has to count. Better shooter, works better with Jokic than Giddey would sure, would not be better if he needed to lead the team in assists and run the offense, imo. Jokic makes him viable as a starter on a contender. He averages less than 5 assists per game, didn't have a season with even 5 his first 5 years.

I said Curry was legendary. So is Doncic and probably SGA. Now let's talk about the other 12 guys in the top 15 that are not going to outproduce Giddey and Bridges on a contender. Lillard. Kyrie. Haliburton. You're severely underrating Giddey's and Bridges impact playing a combined 70 minutes a game vs Lillard playing 35 minutes and a $3 mill vet min player playing 35 minutes in Bridges place. If we're going to focus on how much salary matters, it matters all around. You don't get to be $40 mill over the cap and compare value of players. If we're paying what the Warriors were paying in luxury tax, we could add $180 mill to $25 mill Giddey, lmao! He could be the fifth highest paid player.

I don't even think Caruso's contract is good, but they don't have any issue giving it to him because SGA, Jalen Williams, and Chet are outplaying their contracts. Same reason for them paying Hartenstein almost 30M. Giddey's game isn't built to run next to most good offensive players, regardless of their position. Most star players need the ball as well as good court spacing. Giddey isn't suited for that role, and you aren't taking the ball out of Tatum's hands so Giddey can run the offense.

I never said I'd build a team of elite options, and I don't know how you got to that conclusion.

Star players generally need scoring/shooting next to them. They draw so much attention from defense and need teammates who are capable of taking advantage of that attention. Giddey doesn't excel in this role while Murray does. I don't care about leading the team in assists. Neither Giddey nor Murray is running an elite offense.

Haliburton and Kyrie were worth their contracts pre-injury at least, and both are only getting paid 40-45M. I'd rather have Kyrie/Haliburton and the extra money over those Giddey and Bridges. Dame sure those two are worth more than him, but his days as an All-NBA level talent are done.

Also, I don't think the Pacers would make the finals if you swapped Haliburton with Giddey and Bridges. Same with the Kyrie and the Mavs last season.

I don't think I'm underrating Giddey and Bridges. I don't think those two at 63M is a steal, I'd rather have Curry at 60M or Haliburton at 45M.