Peak For Peak More Athletic: A.I or Kobe

kendogg · Post #21 » by **kendogg** » Sun May 14, 2023 5:56 pm

Relative to their size, it's pretty close. The thing is, AI obviously didn't do strength training at all. Weight matters when it comes to agility and vertical (and speed in long distance running, aka stamina). Kobe had similar bounce and was as fast for his size. They both ran a similar time end to end of the court (about 4.3sec 40y). Where Iverson was was better than Kobe was in agility....changing speeds, changing directions (and again, because of weight). Iverson also had a better handle, so those 2 things combined made him much harder to stay in front of. Iverson did have a slightly higher max vertical (41" to 38") but again weight matters. Kobe was stronger than Iverson which more than makes up for 3" of vertical.

If Kobe was leaner, he may have had a 40+" vertical. Wilt Chamberlain had a 13'+ vertical reach before he joined the NBA (on the Globetrotters) but he was only like 220 pounds then. He bulked up to 260 when he joined the NBA and was as high as 320lbs. He still had a great vertical late in his career with the Lakers, but it wasn't what it was in college, because he was 100lbs heavier. Kobe was 50-60lbs heavier than Iverson, depending on stage of their careers (Kobe bulked up 10-15 lbs later in his career).

In terms of combine stats, they are relatively even, maybe a slight edge to Iverson. Even in speed, Iverson would would win agility and vert, Kobe winning strength. But I don't think that makes Iverson a better athlete than Kobe. He was just skinnier.

For reference, I'd say Derrick Rose was more athletic than Iverson, in terms of combine stats. Rose had a 40" vert, was faster, and stronger than Iverson. Iverson probably still wins agility contests though. And he also had a better handle. So Iverson is still a nightmare to guard because of that insanely great agility/handle combination, but that doesn't make him the overall better athlete.

HeartBreakKid · Post #22 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Sun May 14, 2023 6:13 pm

I agree with Kendogg, I think people are greatly overlooking AI's strength disadvantage.

I suppose because it is "one thing" though I think strength can be split into many sub categories. My main point is that Iverson is sooo terrible in strength that it kinda sinks him as an overall athlete while Kobe is really good in nearly every category while also being really tall.

Iverson looks like he never touched a weight in his life, like a 150 pound guy or something. I'm sure he's stronger than he looks but compared to Bryant it's really a chasm.

Pelly24 · Post #23 » by **Pelly24** » Sun May 14, 2023 11:05 pm

An Unbiased Fan wrote:
Pelly24 wrote:I'll go with Allen Iverson. People talk about his chucking, but his ability to create that many shots for himself without spacing is just remarkable, it's a testament to his ability to physically dominate the competition. People simply weren't able to keep him away from the rim. The speed, coordination, first step explosion, bounce, stamina... it was all pretty much as good as it got.

Eh, Kobe is probably the best ever at creating space and shot creating though.

Nah, that's MJ. Kobe took a lot of incredibly contested jumpers compared to MJ. AI being able to average 33 ppl at his size is a test mane to supreme all around athleticism

henshao · Post #24 » by **henshao** » Mon May 15, 2023 12:23 am

Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

Post #25 » by **tsherkin** » Mon May 15, 2023 1:23 am

henshao wrote:Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

He has two seasons (his first two) with more than 14 dunks, and two others with 10+ (10 and 14).

Kobe had a season where he had 116, and 11 others with 50+, as well as one with 49 (and 12 in a row with 49+).

Dunks in a season won't really work in AI's favor here. The extra like 5-7" of height does play there, of course.

henshao · Post #26 » by **henshao** » Mon May 15, 2023 1:27 am

tsherkin wrote:
henshao wrote:Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

He has two seasons (his first two) with more than 14 dunks, and two others with 10+ (10 and 14).

Kobe had a season where he had 116, and 11 others with 50+, as well as one with 49 (and 12 in a row with 49+).

Dunks in a season won't really work in AI's favor here. The extra like 5-7" of height does play there, of course.

Ok I must have misremembered

henshao · Post #27 » by **henshao** » Sat May 20, 2023 9:32 pm

tsherkin wrote:
henshao wrote:Can anyone find the stat for dunks per season? I seem to recall AI had an astoundingly high dunk rate without caveat, but relative to height doubly so. I don't think he led the league in dunks but it was something noteworthy

He has two seasons (his first two) with more than 14 dunks, and two others with 10+ (10 and 14).

Kobe had a season where he had 116, and 11 others with 50+, as well as one with 49 (and 12 in a row with 49+).

Dunks in a season won't really work in AI's favor here. The extra like 5-7" of height does play there, of course.

I figured out what it was, now. in '98 AI lead the league in point guard dunks. He was second in this metric behind Penny the previous year

Post #28 » by **tsherkin** » Sun May 21, 2023 11:02 am

henshao wrote:I figured out what it was, now. in '98 AI lead the league in point guard dunks. He was second in this metric behind Penny the previous year

So, 34 dunks in 97, 33 in 98.

Westbrook has had 50+ on 4 occasions. Don't have tracking data for Kevin Johnson (or Magic Johnson, for that matter). If I'm being a pest, Lebron was listed as a PG in 2020 and 2021 and he posted 79 and 48. Wade his first season was listed at point and had 63 dunks. De'Aaron Fox had 41 in 2019 and Gilbert Arenas had 33 in 2003.

if what you're getting at is that he's the shortest guy to reach that plateau while we've been tracking, though, then sure. It's not like Chris Paul or Kemba Walker or Steve Nash or anyone really gets near. Fox is a bit of an outlier in that respect as well. But since you counted Penny, who was 6'7, I threw the other guys in.

henshao · Post #29 » by **henshao** » Sun May 21, 2023 11:37 am

tsherkin wrote:
henshao wrote:I figured out what it was, now. in '98 AI lead the league in point guard dunks. He was second in this metric behind Penny the previous year

So, 34 dunks in 97, 33 in 98.

Westbrook has had 50+ on 4 occasions. Don't have tracking data for Kevin Johnson (or Magic Johnson, for that matter). If I'm being a pest, Lebron was listed as a PG in 2020 and 2021 and he posted 79 and 48. Wade his first season was listed at point and had 63 dunks. De'Aaron Fox had 41 in 2019 and Gilbert Arenas had 33 in 2003.

if what you're getting at is that he's the shortest guy to reach that plateau while we've been tracking, though, then sure. It's not like Chris Paul or Kemba Walker or Steve Nash or anyone really gets near. Fox is a bit of an outlier in that respect as well. But since you counted Penny, who was 6'7, I threw the other guys in.

No what I'm getting at is this 25 year old factoid in my head had a basis in reality

Post #30 » by **tsherkin** » Mon May 22, 2023 3:24 am

henshao wrote:No what I'm getting at is this 25 year old factoid in my head had a basis in reality

100%, in his first two seasons, he dunked a ton for a dude his size, yes.

mdonnelly1989 · Post #31 » by **mdonnelly1989** » Sat Aug 2, 2025 4:49 pm

Unfortunately I did not get to witness Kobe from 01-03, and ironically that was also AIs peak Athletic ability as well.

Of course you got to go Athleticism per pound. However, it does give Kobes size a disadvantage if you're going per pound. Since the advantage would then go to AI before even paying attention to measurables.

With that being said, its touch 1A. 1B. I'd say probably AI by a hair

Post #32 » by **tsherkin** » Sat Aug 2, 2025 5:43 pm

mdonnelly1989 wrote:Unfortunately I did not get to witness Kobe from 01-03, and ironically that was also AIs peak Athletic ability as well.

Of course you got to go Athleticism per pound. However, it does give Kobes size a disadvantage if you're going per pound. Since the advantage would then go to AI before even paying attention to measurables.

With that being said, its touch 1A. 1B. I'd say probably AI by a hair

That's a bit of a bump, lol.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #33 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Sat Aug 2, 2025 7:45 pm

Heej wrote:AI would likely be a better multi-sport athlete but people really underestimate how much of an athletic marvel it is for guys that tall to be that coordinated.

I'd take Kobe over AI in most any sport tbh. Size matters in most athletics and the biggest thing is work ethic. That is such a difference maker when trying to become a world class athlete in any sport. So given those two things I seriously doubt there's too many sports where if you took a 13 year old version of each and said 'try to become pro at this sport' that AI would become better at it.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #34 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 1:20 am

If it's basketball athleticism, I go Kobe because of the size.

Otherwise, AI has a good argument depending on the sport.

Redmoon · Post #35 » by **Redmoon** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 8:05 pm

Really depends on what your criteria is or even what you prefer. To me the answer is AI.

threethehardway · Post #36 » by **threethehardway** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 8:13 pm

AI is easily the better athlete than Kobe.

Kobe is an overrated athlete. He is a B level Athlete.

AI is a generational athlete. AI is an A- athlete.

You can drop AI in almost any ball sport and he'll be a top 10 athlete. Can't say the same for Kobe.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #37 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 8:35 pm

threethehardway wrote:AI is easily the better athlete than Kobe.

Kobe is an overrated athlete. He is a B level Athlete.

AI is a generational athlete. AI is an A- athlete.

You can drop AI in almost any ball sport and he'll be a top 10 athlete. Can't say the same for Kobe.

Don't agree at all. There is more to athleticism than just quickness and stamina. He would not be even close to top 10 in baseball(unless he proves it), football(yes I know about him being a hs qb which means nothing when being compared to the best nfl players) and plenty of other sports. Soccer ya maybe. There is a strength component to raw athleticism that people are way too eager to leave out of these things.

TheGOATRises007 · Post #38 » by **TheGOATRises007** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 8:53 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote:
threethehardway wrote:AI is easily the better athlete than Kobe.

Kobe is an overrated athlete. He is a B level Athlete.

AI is a generational athlete. AI is an A- athlete.

You can drop AI in almost any ball sport and he'll be a top 10 athlete. Can't say the same for Kobe.

Don't agree at all. There is more to athleticism than just quickness and stamina. He would not be even close to top 10 in baseball(unless he proves it), football(yes I know about him being a hs qb which means nothing when being compared to the best nfl players) and plenty of other sports. Soccer ya maybe. There is a strength component to raw athleticism that people are way too eager to leave out of these things.

He wouldn't be a top 10 athlete in soccer either.

threethehardway · Post #39 » by **threethehardway** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 10:26 pm

Cavsfansince84 wrote: Don't agree at all. There is more to athleticism than just quickness and stamina. He would not be even close to top 10 in baseball(unless he proves it), football(yes I know about him being a hs qb which means nothing when being compared to the best nfl players) and plenty of other sports. Soccer ya maybe. There is a strength component to raw athleticism that people are way too eager to leave out of these things.

AI wasn't just quick.

AI is strong for his size, AI was running full into 250+ pound 7 foot big men night after night while playing 40 minutes each night.

That's resilience and endurance. And that's on top of him not caring about lifting weights or proper rest or anything like that.

AI would definitely be one of the most athletic guys in baseball easily. He could be a great defensive short stop with his movement abilities.

You can take an 8 year old AI and apply his athletic profile to any ball sport and he'll be top at it. Baseball, football, soccer and basketball. AI could dominate athletically, his athletic profile is that elite. Movement, explosiveness, pound for pound strength, stamina. AI pops off the screen when you watch him play, Kobe doesn't.

You can't say the same for Kobe. Kobe is just a basketball athlete. He has great body control, but he was never that impressive to me. Wade and TMac were better athletes than him.

Cavsfansince84 · Post #40 » by **Cavsfansince84** » Sun Aug 3, 2025 11:58 pm

threethehardway wrote:
AI wasn't just quick.

AI is strong for his size, AI was running full into 250+ pound 7 foot big men night after night while playing 40 minutes each night.

That's resilience and endurance. And that's on top of him not caring about lifting weights or proper rest or anything like that.

AI would definitely be one of the most athletic guys in baseball easily. He could be a great defensive short stop with his movement abilities.

You can take an 8 year old AI and apply his athletic profile to any ball sport and he'll be top at it. Baseball, football, soccer and basketball. AI could dominate athletically, his athletic profile is that elite. Movement, explosiveness, pound for pound strength, stamina. AI pops off the screen when you watch him play, Kobe doesn't.

You can't say the same for Kobe. Kobe is just a basketball athlete. He has great body control, but he was never that impressive to me. Wade and TMac were better athletes than him.

Level of athleticism within a sport and success within that sport are not the same thing. You can't just conflate them like they are. You can't assume that due to athleticism that AI could have been a great shortstop without him showing the skills to be a great ss and ability to be decent at the plate. It's fine to say that you think AI was a better athlete than Kobe. That doesn't mean he could have been great at any sport. You just sound like a giant fanboy right now tbh. I think Kobe did pop off the screen at times in his early days. He was one of the best in game dunkers in the league.

Peak For Peak More Athletic: A.I or Young Kobe