George or Coulibaly: Who’s the Wizards’ Forward of the Future?

[closg00]

George or Coulibaly: Who’s the Wizards’ Forward of the Future?
https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nba/george-or-coulibaly-who-s-the-wizards-forward-of-the-future/ar-AA1JPO4o

[nate33]

closg00 posted this in the offseason thread, but with us in the summer doldrums, I figured this would be an interesting thread for discussion.

[nate33]

I'm still on team Bilal, by the way. I know everyone is worried about the regression in 3-point shooting, but I still recall how impressive he looked over the first month of the season when he carried us to those two wins against Atlanta by shutting down Trae while also being the one guy on our offense who could bend the defense and get to the rim.

I see a progression not unlike both Deni and Beal in that he is improving at everything across the board except the shots just aren't actually going in yet. I think that shot will click, and when it does, you will see an extremely dynamic and well-rounded offensive player who passes really well, can get to the rim and finish, and will be a serviceable 3-point shooter. And, oh yeah, he will be an All-NBA caliber defender who can guard 1 through 5.

I like Kyshawn a lot too, but I do think there's a ceiling to his upside because he is not very explosive.

[The Consiglieri]

What makes it even more interesting is that 2 of the top 4 prospects in next years draft basically play the same position in Dybantsa, and Ament (I do think Ament's growth/size may move him eventually to the 4, but for now he's viewed as a Wing prospect).

That's part of the reason that, if we keep our pick, things could be super super interesting with where we land if we're top 5. There's a combo guard with probably a PG tag in Peterson, there's a stretch 4/PF in Boozer, and for now, the top rated, pure PG is Mikel Brown at #5 overall, but Karim Lopez, yet another Wing, is also often sliding in at 5th overall. So it could be that come next June, we have a pick (I hope), sliding in somewhere in that area (the higher the better of course), and yet 3 of the top 5 or 6 guys will be wings.

What happens with George and Coulibaly at that point?

I think we'll be most attracted to the traditional big 4 and Brown, for now, but man does that make landing spot important, to have nearly all our best prospects 2 guards and 3's/Wings would be absolutely nuts. But here we are. I just did a couple of tankathon sims, and did land #2 three times, #3 once, and #1 once, that Suns swap, for now, is paying HUGE dividends in simulations.

Personally, I'm still betting on Coulibaly, but it's hard to argue that George is showing hints of being far more valuable than slotted during that '24 draft, time will tell, but he's definitely not a bust, and looks like he's a fantastic bench player with starter potential.

[Zonkerbl]

aren't you allowed to have 2 forwards

[WallToWall]

With the PF and SF positions having such blurry lines between them, and the need for backups, along with players of different skillsets, I think there is room for both - I dont see it as a choice between them. I see Bilal primarily as a SF. He can play PF against smaller PF's, or SG against all but the quickest SG's. I see Kyshawn as the more physical SF who can also play PF against the slower PF. We can certainly have lineups with both of them starting.

A lineup of Sarr, Whitmore, George, Coulibaly, Carrington would be an interesting defensive lineup, and we may get the best out of both of them.

[nate33]

What makes it even more interesting is that 2 of the top 4 prospects in next years draft basically play the same position in Dybantsa, and Ament (I do think Ament's growth/size may move him eventually to the 4, but for now he's viewed as a Wing prospect).

That's part of the reason that, if we keep our pick, things could be super super interesting with where we land if we're top 5. There's a combo guard with probably a PG tag in Peterson, there's a stretch 4/PF in Boozer, and for now, the top rated, pure PG is Mikel Brown at #5 overall, but Karim Lopez, yet another Wing, is also often sliding in at 5th overall. So it could be that come next June, we have a pick (I hope), sliding in somewhere in that area (the higher the better of course), and yet 3 of the top 5 or 6 guys will be wings.

What happens with George and Coulibaly at that point?

I think we'll be most attracted to the traditional big 4 and Brown, for now, but man does that make landing spot important, to have nearly all our best prospects 2 guards and 3's/Wings would be absolutely nuts. But here we are. I just did a couple of tankathon sims, and did land #2 three times, #3 once, and #1 once, that Suns swap, for now, is paying HUGE dividends in simulations.

Personally, I'm still betting on Coulibaly, but it's hard to argue that George is showing hints of being far more valuable than slotted during that '24 draft, time will tell, but he's definitely not a bust, and looks like he's a fantastic bench player with starter potential.

The way I see things panning out, we will end up with 5 or 6 big wings, none of whom are considered a pure PG (except maybe Bub), but all of them will have a decent handle and passing ability so that we can just run a PG by committee - not unlike what OKC or Boston do. If we land, say, Dybantsa, in the draft, we could just run a starting lineup of Tre, Bilal, Dybantsa, George (or Whitmore) and Sarr, and I wouldn't be all that worried about the absence of a true PG. Then we come off the bench with even more guys like Bub, Riley, JC, Whitmore (or George) and just run teams into the ground.

The best case scenario is to draft Peterson and play him as the nominal PG. A lineup of Peterson, Tre, Bilal, either Whitmore or George at the 4, and Sarr at the 5 would be just fine with me. It's an incredibly versatile lineup on both offense and defense with everybody capable of doing a little of everything at both ends of the court. Hopefully, Peterson (or maybe Tre) would be the primary defense bender that can force the opposition into rotation.

[closg00]

Looking forward to Bilal demonstrating that he is a wing whose shot must be respected, I know he has been working hard this offseason, I expect to see even the beginnings of a bag.

If Keyshawn develops a consistent stroke, he could come out ahead in the horse race between the two, Bilal would become our glove if the offense improvement doesn’t happen.

[Doug_Blew]

Usually, i'd go with the extreme athlete. But Kyshawn is looking like a complete player. I love the way he plays defense. He looks like he can effortlessly gets the ball to the rim with ease. And his shot looked really good to me after the first month or two of his rookie season (eyeball test only. I dont look at stats too much).

Bilal has a lot of potential. I was really high on him his rookie season but i lost a little bit of that loving feeling with Bilal. He still has the potential to be the better player between the two. But, I'm betting on Kyshawn.

[DCZards]

I see Bilal as potentially being better than George at creating his own shot (due in large part to his superior athleticism) while I see Kyshawn as the better outside shooter and playmaker.

Defensively they are both going to be special—Bilal with his length and quickness and Ky because of his defensive IQ and instincts.

Close call overall between the two. They are just so very different on both ends of the court.

[Zonkerbl]

Is 33-35 wins going to get the five pick? I think the 9 pick is much more likely

[dckingsfan]

What makes it even more interesting is that 2 of the top 4 prospects in next years draft basically play the same position in Dybantsa, and Ament (I do think Ament's growth/size may move him eventually to the 4, but for now he's viewed as a Wing prospect).

That's part of the reason that, if we keep our pick, things could be super super interesting with where we land if we're top 5. There's a combo guard with probably a PG tag in Peterson, there's a stretch 4/PF in Boozer, and for now, the top rated, pure PG is Mikel Brown at #5 overall, but Karim Lopez, yet another Wing, is also often sliding in at 5th overall. So it could be that come next June, we have a pick (I hope), sliding in somewhere in that area (the higher the better of course), and yet 3 of the top 5 or 6 guys will be wings.

What happens with George and Coulibaly at that point?

I think we'll be most attracted to the traditional big 4 and Brown, for now, but man does that make landing spot important, to have nearly all our best prospects 2 guards and 3's/Wings would be absolutely nuts. But here we are. I just did a couple of tankathon sims, and did land #2 three times, #3 once, and #1 once, that Suns swap, for now, is paying HUGE dividends in simulations.

Personally, I'm still betting on Coulibaly, but it's hard to argue that George is showing hints of being far more valuable than slotted during that '24 draft, time will tell, but he's definitely not a bust, and looks like he's a fantastic bench player with starter potential.

And broadening it a bit more, if you look at Cam Whitmore; Bilal Coulibaly; Kyshawn George; Justin Champagnie; and (I personally think he fits here)
Alex Sarr. And then if you get AJ Dybantsa or Cameron Boozer things get pretty messy in a way.

So, it will be really important to identify who the top 3 are and if you think that Sarr is more forward that C (ducks).

[closg00]

Bilal hitting a corner 3 in today’s friendly, he is comfortable shooting from here.

Read on Twitter

[doclinkin]

I see Bilal as potentially being better than George at creating his own shot (due in large part to his superior athleticism) while I see Kyshawn as the better outside shooter and playmaker.

Defensively they are both going to be special—Bilal with his length and quickness and Ky because of his defensive IQ and instincts.

Close call overall between the two. They are just so very different on both ends of the court.

Right. Which means you can play the two together so it’s a moot point.

KG is so versatile that he may end up earning more minutes even if he comes off the bench. Especially if he keeps adding muscle. He said he’s still growing and was told he may top out at 6’10”. If he adds the bulk to guard in the low post and hold his own on the boards you could legitimately play him 1-4.
You can build strength in ways that you can’t build bounce or a quick twitch first step.

With Bilal’s improving dribble drive game and long quick step he can earn minutes at guard. He too is still growing. Was interviewed saying he’s 6’9” in shoes. If you are who you guard Bilal plays 1-3.

Neither of them is strong on the boards though so if we run out this line up:

Bub
Tre
Bilal
Key
Sarr

we will force misses but give up 2nd chances. I agree Sarr counts as a giant PF until he gets big. Why I wanted a true C as a back up. But if we draft Cam Boozer I’m not worried about it since Boozer plays large and figures to steadily get bigger and stronger.

[payitforward]

This thread gives me the willies a little.

Neither of these guys has been genuinely "good" yet.
Not for a season, not for half a season, not over a dizen game stretdch.

Nor has Sarr; nor has Bub.

I want them to be good! Obviously. But I don't want to invoke the curse of les Boulez by giving them premature props!

[smoothSeph]

I still think Bilal has the highest ceiling on the team. Ky possibly has the highest floor.

[doclinkin]

Talent wise see our roster like this:

1G. … Bub … AJJ
2G. Tre … Cam. Riley.
Swingman: Bilal/Cam/KyG/Champ.
PF: Sarr …
C: … Sarr

The blank spots are places where we don’t have the talent filled. Growth opportunities or open for audition. Not yet starters/subs at that spot. Til we draft one or someone grows up.

If Bub develops as a floor general he very well could be a legit lead guard. He needs to work on imposing his will in the game and making teammates better. Ranged shooting. Drawing fouls. Setting up allies for easy buckets. I’m confident It’s coming. Agree with doubters that it’s Not there yet. More than anything it’s about aggression. He’s still learning where to pick his spots. Hasn’t figured out how to take control. That part takes time. He’s still a baby out there.

Tre profiles as a legit true shooting guard who as he develops should start on any team in the league. Not a combo guard, even if his playmaking develops. He’s a weapon. His best role.

Bilal’s biggest upside comes with development of his handle. And shot. The ability to realistically play him as a back up guard as well as starting SF will make him a serious problem for opponents. His talent says he’ll get there as a legit starter for any team in the league. Currently at 3. But could be 2-4 potentially.

I see Riley as a guard, eventually. His handle, reads, hesitation game— all suggest he’s a better on-ball player than a 3&D guy waiting in the corner. His height is an asset at guard, whereas his short arms are a liability at SF. Needs muscle. Confidence in his shot.

Cam is a bucket. 6th man scorer type. Same way, it clears up the logjam If he is playable as a 2/3. He doesn’t rebound well enough to be a front court player on D. Doesn’t pass enough to be called a guard on offense.

But we have enough length and outside shooters that with his strength he’s like a SG/PF. He’s our most probable interior scorer. And-1 threat. Too strong for guards to stop. Between playmakers like Kyshawn, Sarr and Bub you can live without passing from the off guard spot.

Similar deal with AJJ. He’s a PG on defense but only playable on offense if he’s not a lead guard. Surround him with big playmakers and he’s a fun watch.

Kyshawn will play no matter what. Starter. Off the bench. Doesn’t matter. Defense and playmaking will make him any coach’s favorite. If his outside shot starts dropping you can’t keep him off the court. Personally I want him to add bulk. But if his handle tightens up he may play at PG.

Likewise Champagnie will earn steady minutes off the bench. He’ll be a +/- champion. As our only rebounder I want him buried this year but after the draft he’s probably the biggest threat to Whitmore’s minutes once we decide to try winning.

Sarr. Playmaking finesse 5? Or giant 3&D wing. Until he can rebound inside and finish at a high percentage he’s not a 5 to me. I like the shot blocking but he’s better as a weak side mistake eraser. I do like that he’s improved as a screen setter. I still would like a true big as an option on the inside.

Or grow our own. Put Vukcevic on a diet of GNC powders and lock him in the gym til he swells like a mutant. Teach him to play on the inside on defense.

I still expect we will have to draft into those blank spots though

[nate33]

I still expect we will have to draft into those blank spots though

I think one of Bilal our Kyshawn could pan out as our PF in a few years as they add bulk. I noted a year or so ago that Bilal has the same exact height and wingspan measurements as Precious Achiuwa, and that guy plays small ball center.

[trast66]

Whichever one can shoot at least 37% from 3. If they can’t they will have limited roles.

[doclinkin]

This thread gives me the willies a little.

Neither of these guys has been genuinely "good" yet.
Not for a season, not for half a season, not over a dizen game stretdch.

Nor has Sarr; nor has Bub.

I want them to be good! Obviously. But I don't want to invoke the curse of les Boulez by giving them premature props!

Fiddlesticks. We’re not talking about the Forward of Right Now. We’re talking about young draft picks and projecting that they will get better, because that is generally how young players turn into good players. They start out bad. They learn grow and improve. But we drafted them for a reason. They showed signs of eventually being good. Otherwise why draft anybody other than upperclassmen?

These are the guys we got. Given that they play similar positions, if they develop like they ‘should’ the question is: which of the two do we project to have a higher upside? Better fit?

If you want to create a thread about the Forward of Right Now we can do so to fuss about how little play time we expect Champagnie to get this year. But you can’t have it both ways: you want new threads and new content, so you can have something worth complaining about. Or at least something inconsequential.

Anyway. Fair to project. Hope. The seeds of who they will become are right there. Advanced defensive metrics based on video studies show both as having a solid effect. That’s rare for players on rookie deals. Offense should come around. Rebounding may improve as they get bigger. Though I tend to think rebounding remains more static than most stats. Shooting however does improve. More than anything that’s what will help the game of both players given their role and styles.