Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[CS707]

This is just a message to JK's camp through the media. I suspect it's JK's agent that has been leaking information to the media the last couple of weeks, so it's really just negotiation turnabout, IMO. I actually feel bad for Kuminga as I think his agent is largely responsible for this. If he were more realistic with what they were looking for last year, I expect JK would have never made it to FA. Speculation obviously.

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

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Lacob speaks.

I've thought I heard this before, hmm... maybe just over half a year ago? How is it the team that benefited in a problematic situation like this can't see the risks.

Read on Twitter

[vvoland]

Spoiler:

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Lacob speaks.

I've thought I heard this before, hmm... maybe just over half a year ago?

Read on Twitter

I don't believe these situations, or the people making the statement, are in any way comparable.

[Onus]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

So there's no need for the 1st statement "will not trade" since they want to trade him for "value". The double speak is hilarious to me.

[Onus]

Spoiler:

Read on Twitter

Lacob speaks.

I've thought I heard this before, hmm... maybe just over half a year ago?

Read on Twitter

I don't believe these situations, or the people making the statement, are in any way comparable.

Why are we only offering a 1 + 1 deal?

[AirP.]

Spoiler:

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Lacob speaks.

I've thought I heard this before, hmm... maybe just over half a year ago?

Read on Twitter

I don't believe these situations, or the people making the statement, are in any way comparable.

I think you're wrong.

Butler was going to play out his season last year but when he showed up to training camp Spoelstra changed the offense to no longer feature him and that offense took away Butler's strengths.... the midrange, catering it to a 3pt shooter like Herro (in GS... Curry). So going into FA a year later Butler was going to be playing in a system that didn't showcase his strengths and with that, probably would have gotten less money. Kuminga is in the same situation, being strongarmed into staying another year in an offense that doesn't display his strengths right before free agency.

There's a lot of parallels between the 2 situations. Sure, there are some differences but a lot of the same things.

[CS707]

GSW is offering guaranteed only +20mln and Kuminga is dick not accepting this?

Kuminga alone is to blame for his failure to not now be signed to a more lucrative deal. For the last year, we were all left to believe that Kuminga was offered 5 years / $150 million prior to last season - Only to reject that offer because he wanted more. During this entire time, Kuminga's agent (Aaron Turner) remained silent regarding the rumor. Only recently has Turner suddenly become quite coy - claiming that no such offer was ever made. Now, when all other possible suitors for Kuminga's services have gone away. Now, when all there is to do is try to save face. None of this clusterf@ck can be laid at the feet of the Dubs. Kuminga sat on the pot and refused to poop, acting as though the market for his flawed services would always be there and acting as though the Dubs had no alternatives to him. Once the Dubs traded for Butler though, everything changed. Now, the Dubs are calling Kuminga's stupid bluff - If you think you're worth so much, then sign the QO and be an unrestricted free agent next year. Act like a dick. Get treated like a dick.

It's Kuminga's fault for overestimating his value and not getting what he wants, but nope, the Warriors are still to blame for it from their side. If they weren't getting anywhere in negotiations and weren't getting a good feeling about it, then they should have moved him before he became an RFA and the restrictions clamped in. Nothing prevented them from doing that and I think every one of us here at least felt like we were watching the same bad re-run for the last 3 or so years between Kuminga and Kerr and does he fit with Curry, etc., so it's not like it came out of nowhere. Maybe they had plans to move him after the Jimmy acquisition but the injury messed up their plans, but that's just bad luck and it was bad luck for Kuminga too.

The only counter I'd offer here is that we don't know what the market looked like for Kuminga last year. It's hard to get a sense of his real market is now given all the context surrounding his FA, but teams aren't killing themselves to find a way to bring him in. It's very possible that nobody was looking to give up assets for him, especially knowing that he was looking to get paid.

[tal57]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

Keon is value to us. To kerr. To mjd.

Im not sure Keon is value to lacob.

Precisely. There is one factor that has to be accounted for first and foremost, Lacob's ego. Going all the way back to West's success in building the dynasty and dismissing him because Lacob's ego couldn't handle that. Then GMing into making 3 horrible to very bad lotto pics. His ego had no choice but to already eat Wiseman full of **** pick, moody is the bench meh at best and now he has to eat full bucket of more **** on JK? Lacob will die before his ego allows that last act of his lotto GMing.

[vvoland]

I've thought I heard this before, hmm... maybe just over half a year ago?

Read on Twitter

I don't believe these situations, or the people making the statement, are in any way comparable.

Why are we only offering a 1 + 1 deal?

Not sure how that relates to my comment about this being very different from Riley's statement on Jimmy, but it's a valid question

1. Because the dubs don't believe in JK's long term fit and don't want to commit the money for more than 2 years.

2. For the same reasons they made Dray and Iggy find offers elsewhere before not-quite-matching them at the very end. Tried to do the same w/ Klay but his pride got in the way. Thought about doing the same w/ Steph and Klay ('19) but were talked out of it by Iggy & co, if you were to believe Iggy.

3. Because they ARE looking to trade him for good value. What they will consider good value changes and will depend, in large part, on JK's play with Butler. In addition to the injury, I think he wasn't moved at the deadline because he did show he could play with steph/dray before JB got here. Whether that was fool's gold or, even if 24K, if he can do it w/ Jimmy in the mix, remains to be seen.

4. and most importantly, I think they're making a pretty big mistake with how late and contentious they allow these negotiations to go. It has only 'hurt' them with Klay. I put that in quotes because, from the reporting, they wanted to make an offer before Klay signed w/ Dallas, but to him, that was too late.

At the end of the day, they are very likely to end up at a reasonable compromise (3/75 w/ a mutual option or 2/50) with JK. They could have saved themselves, JK, and all of us two months of aggravation. It would have also allowed for the offseason to get started on time, have better chemistry, get JK back to the facilities earlier, etc, etc, etc. That has real monetary value, though I'll refrain from trying to calculate it here.

For a team/coach that clearly values vibes, all of these contract negotiations seem so out of character. Like most orgs, I bet there's a guy that's in charge of the money/cap/contracts and his only KPI is how they do in negotations so he's treating everything like it's WW3. Especially, post JP3. Just a hunch. Most teams do this to separate the FO from the contact negotiations and make that role the scapegoat but, imho, it's a gross miscalculation.

[DonaldSanders]

Both JK and the Warriors are attempting to do what is best for each side, it's the new S&T rules that are making this awkward. If the same rules during the season applied now, a trade would be done. Kuminga just wants the deal now with his new team and doesn't want to spend time on a team he will ultimately leave, which makes sense. The Warriors want max value in the current situation (ignoring past lost value) which is why what they are doing sense.

Both sides are acting rationally at the point we're in *now*, we're just in a weird CBA. Obviously both parties could have done things different in the past, but what both sides are doing now is logical.

[wco81]

Just got an alert, Giannis "unsure" if he will stay with the Bucks.

[vvoland]

Kuminga alone is to blame for his failure to not now be signed to a more lucrative deal. For the last year, we were all left to believe that Kuminga was offered 5 years / $150 million prior to last season - Only to reject that offer because he wanted more. During this entire time, Kuminga's agent (Aaron Turner) remained silent regarding the rumor. Only recently has Turner suddenly become quite coy - claiming that no such offer was ever made. Now, when all other possible suitors for Kuminga's services have gone away. Now, when all there is to do is try to save face. None of this clusterf@ck can be laid at the feet of the Dubs. Kuminga sat on the pot and refused to poop, acting as though the market for his flawed services would always be there and acting as though the Dubs had no alternatives to him. Once the Dubs traded for Butler though, everything changed. Now, the Dubs are calling Kuminga's stupid bluff - If you think you're worth so much, then sign the QO and be an unrestricted free agent next year. Act like a dick. Get treated like a dick.

It's Kuminga's fault for overestimating his value and not getting what he wants, but nope, the Warriors are still to blame for it from their side. If they weren't getting anywhere in negotiations and weren't getting a good feeling about it, then they should have moved him before he became an RFA and the restrictions clamped in. Nothing prevented them from doing that and I think every one of us here at least felt like we were watching the same bad re-run for the last 3 or so years between Kuminga and Kerr and does he fit with Curry, etc., so it's not like it came out of nowhere. Maybe they had plans to move him after the Jimmy acquisition but the injury messed up their plans, but that's just bad luck and it was bad luck for Kuminga too.

The only counter I'd offer here is that we don't know what the market looked like for Kuminga last year. It's hard to get a sense of his real market is now given all the context surrounding his FA, but teams aren't killing themselves to find a way to bring him in. It's very possible that nobody was looking to give up assets for him, especially knowing that he was looking to get paid.

If they were truly more concerned about BYC stuff and being able to trade him for a big fish in '24-'25, I don't think there was any contract they would have offered, other than something proportionally more than moody got (~4/60?). Small enough that his 4th year salary and his starting salary in the 1st year of the extension weren't too far apart. He would have NEVER taken that deal last summer.

This summer, it looks like they offered the 2/45 just the other week, when it was reported that the dubs were 'getting serious' about their offers to JK. That's 2/45, with a TO and no NT. xdrta mentioned dlo, a bunch of vet mins on MIL, and Hayes as folks that turned down the NTC but all but Hayes had a PO, not TO, in year two. Hayes just had the 1 year deal. So no one has accepted a 2nd non-guaranteed year that wasn't a Player option AND waived the inherent NTC. They dub's "serious" offer is trying to make JK the first to get reamed that way.

IF JK came out after that offer and said, we're done negotiating, it's the 3/82, the QO, or trade me, I'd be afraid that it's too toxic to move forward. All he's done is post an IG story saying 'I'd be on myself everyday.' Not exactly antonio brown on the dolphins. I wonder what their 'non-serious' offer was, an expired voucher to a vegas buffet after a 4 hour timeshare presentation?

[vvoland]

Both JK and the Warriors are attempting to do what is best for each side, it's the new S&T rules that are making this awkward. If the same rules during the season applied now, a trade would be done. Kuminga just wants the deal now with his new team and doesn't want to spend time on a team he will ultimately leave, which makes sense. The Warriors want max value in the current situation (ignoring past lost value) which is why what they are doing sense.

Both sides are acting rationally at the point we're in *now*, we're just in a weird CBA. Obviously both parties could have done things different in the past, but what both sides are doing now is logical.

Absolutely. The RFA market has been dead for years and we all should have realized when Austin Reaves got the midlevel exception and 0 offers from other teams. I remember Simmons killing the Spurs at the time, as they had the cap space and no reason to chase a big FA, but even then, that was just 1 suitor.

I wonder how quickly the other 3 RFAs get done once the first domino falls.

[DaHef]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

Keon is value to us. To kerr. To mjd.

Im not sure Keon is value to lacob.

Precisely. There is one factor that has to be accounted for first and foremost, Lacob's ego. Going all the way back to West's success in building the dynasty and dismissing him because Lacob's ego couldn't handle that. Then GMing into making 3 horrible to very bad lotto pics. His ego had no choice but to already eat Wiseman full of **** pick, moody is the bench meh at best and now he has to eat full bucket of more **** on JK? Lacob will die before his ego allows that last act of his lotto GMing.

Run West out of town, hire your children, butt into personnel affairs ala Jerry Jones instead of relying on good basketball people,,, what could go wrong?

[EvanZ]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

So there's no need for the 1st statement "will not trade" since they want to trade him for "value". The double speak is hilarious to me.

I believe they said "will not trade him THIS SUMMER"...because they aren't getting any offers that they deem valuable enough. They have made that determination. I don't really see doublespeak here tbh. In a counterfactual world where Keon Ellis was on the table, I think Kuminga would be gone already. They are not saying Kuminga is untouchable.

[HiRez]

Both JK and the Warriors are attempting to do what is best for each side, it's the new S&T rules that are making this awkward. If the same rules during the season applied now, a trade would be done. Kuminga just wants the deal now with his new team and doesn't want to spend time on a team he will ultimately leave, which makes sense. The Warriors want max value in the current situation (ignoring past lost value) which is why what they are doing sense.

Both sides are acting rationally at the point we're in *now*, we're just in a weird CBA. Obviously both parties could have done things different in the past, but what both sides are doing now is logical.

I agree with you the weird restrictions are a huge problem. And I'm wondering what on earth is the reason for that rule. There are deals that all parties want to get done and they can't do it. Isn't the CBA supposed to encourage player movement and happiness? I'm failing to see how these rules benefit anyone. The teams, the players, the agents, and the fans, and by extension the league, all lose here.

[vvoland]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

So there's no need for the 1st statement "will not trade" since they want to trade him for "value". The double speak is hilarious to me.

I believe they said "will not trade him THIS SUMMER"...because they aren't getting any offers that they deem valuable enough. They have made that determination. I don't really see doublespeak here tbh. In a counterfactual world where Keon Ellis was on the table, I think Kuminga would be gone already. They are not saying Kuminga is untouchable.

With AfroBasket starting next Tue, I can see this being the warriors final trade negotiation. I can see JK wanting to play and get his contract done by then and, if this really isn't as toxic as many believe, the dubs may oblige and give in on a compromise offer by then, barring a decent trade proposal.

We 'wont trade him this summer' might mean, 'are you sure Keon is off the table or that pick is protected' before we sign him and make it impossible to trade JK before Feb. While I hope this is not the case, the way they've publicly negotiated with JK, the Kings, Suns, etc. makes me think this is just one more salvo in those battles. I hope not but we'll just have to wait and see.

[Onus]

Well what they're saying is they won't trade him because they're not getting "real value". If the Kings offered Keon, I'm sure they would trade him immediately.

So there's no need for the 1st statement "will not trade" since they want to trade him for "value". The double speak is hilarious to me.

I believe they said "will not trade him THIS SUMMER"...because they aren't getting any offers that they deem valuable enough. They have made that determination. I don't really see doublespeak here tbh. In a counterfactual world where Keon Ellis was on the table, I think Kuminga would be gone already. They are not saying Kuminga is untouchable.

Really? so they would trade JK for the right value hence the will not trade JK this summer is factually incorrect. Basically he's just continuing the negotiations that the offers this summer aren't up to Lacob's perceived value and will continue to wait until someone meets his threshold. Which has been said countless times this summer. Again it's likely if the Kings remove the protections for 2030 then JK could be likely traded, so again will not trade him this summer is meaningless.

[statsman]

Both JK and the Warriors are attempting to do what is best for each side, it's the new S&T rules that are making this awkward. If the same rules during the season applied now, a trade would be done. Kuminga just wants the deal now with his new team and doesn't want to spend time on a team he will ultimately leave, which makes sense. The Warriors want max value in the current situation (ignoring past lost value) which is why what they are doing sense.

Both sides are acting rationally at the point we're in *now*, we're just in a weird CBA. Obviously both parties could have done things different in the past, but what both sides are doing now is logical.

I agree with you the weird restrictions are a huge problem. And I'm wondering what on earth is the reason for that rule. There are deals that all parties want to get done and they can't do it. Isn't the CBA supposed to encourage player movement and happiness? I'm failing to see how these rules benefit anyone. The teams, the players, the agents, and the fans, and by extension the league, all lose here.

The rules were put into place to prevent a small number of large markets from jumping well into the luxury tax (funny thing is that luxury tax money was divided amongst the non-taxpaying teams). Unfortunately, while the rules haven't impacted the stars in the league (nothing will), it's the middle of the league who are taking the salary haircuts, both in terms of salary and in terms of guaranteed years.

Teams may be looking at this offseason and will decide to get their players under contract before next offseason. There looks to be several UFAs next year, and those will likely eat up most of the cap space that is currently anticipated. We may run into yet another offseason where it won't pay to be a RFA.

[vvoland]

So there's no need for the 1st statement "will not trade" since they want to trade him for "value". The double speak is hilarious to me.

I believe they said "will not trade him THIS SUMMER"...because they aren't getting any offers that they deem valuable enough. They have made that determination. I don't really see doublespeak here tbh. In a counterfactual world where Keon Ellis was on the table, I think Kuminga would be gone already. They are not saying Kuminga is untouchable.

Really? so they would trade JK for the right value hence the will not trade JK this summer is factually incorrect. Basically he's just continuing the negotiations that the offers this summer aren't up to Lacob's perceived value and will continue to wait until someone meets his threshold. Which has been said countless times this summer. Again it's likely if the Kings remove the protections for 2030 then JK could be likely traded, so again will not trade him this summer is meaningless.

Not unless they realize they aren't getting anything better and plan on inking JK in the next day or two, making a trade impossible until feb.

I also think this is a negotiating tactic to get a better deal now but won't be surprised if they get something signed in the next 24-48 hours.