Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[vvoland]

Both JK and the Warriors are attempting to do what is best for each side, it's the new S&T rules that are making this awkward. If the same rules during the season applied now, a trade would be done. Kuminga just wants the deal now with his new team and doesn't want to spend time on a team he will ultimately leave, which makes sense. The Warriors want max value in the current situation (ignoring past lost value) which is why what they are doing sense.

Both sides are acting rationally at the point we're in *now*, we're just in a weird CBA. Obviously both parties could have done things different in the past, but what both sides are doing now is logical.

I agree with you the weird restrictions are a huge problem. And I'm wondering what on earth is the reason for that rule. There are deals that all parties want to get done and they can't do it. Isn't the CBA supposed to encourage player movement and happiness? I'm failing to see how these rules benefit anyone. The teams, the players, the agents, and the fans, and by extension the league, all lose here.

The rules were put into place to prevent a small number of large markets from jumping well into the luxury tax (funny thing is that luxury tax money was divided amongst the non-taxpaying teams). Unfortunately, while the rules haven't impacted the stars in the league (nothing will), it's the middle of the league who are taking the salary haircuts, both in terms of salary and in terms of guaranteed years.

Teams may be looking at this offseason and will decide to get their players under contract before next offseason. There looks to be several UFAs next year, and those will likely eat up most of the cap space that is currently anticipated. We may run into yet another offseason where it won't pay to be a RFA.

Been the case since Austin Reaves or earlier. We're just late to the game.

Overall, I think you're right but missed one thing. This CBA is about putting in a hard cap, calling it a 2nd apron, and having everyone kinda miss that. Like every CBA, this is about saving the owners from themselves and giving them a huge chip in contract negotiations, restricted or otherwise. With the money drowning out every other detail, the owners gave it to the players, no vaseline, again.

[Old_Blue]

This CBA is about putting in a hard cap, calling it a 2nd apron, and having everyone kinda miss that. Like every CBA, this is about saving the owners from themselves and giving them a huge chip in contract negotiations, restricted or otherwise. With the money drowning out every other detail, the owners gave it to the players, no vaseline, again.

The players had exceptionally poor representation. Draymond gets it. That said, the players are all locked into this new dynamic for the next four seasons. So, they better get used to it. And, it's not just the players who lose out. The fans of financially well performing teams lose out too. Absent the restraints, the Dubs would be splashing around a lot of cash right now and Kuminga's salary tantrum would be an afterthought.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/draymond-green-blames-the-new-cba-and-the-second-apron-for-killing-nba-free-agency-as-we-once-knew-it/

[Twinkie defense]

You guys need to listen/watch the podcast from 95.7 the game is morning.

I am trying to say this the whole time. Fans here think all is good to start the season no matter what happened. Dubs already press the Nuke button. If they don't start pulling back... all I see is QO and drama.

Let's see how this drama work out. Even when Myers gave all the money for Poole boy. That didn't fix sh@t. Now Dubs want to do the opposite and you guys think all is good? And the Kerr/JK drama is not an issue? Just like Dray/Poole was not an issue?

Kuminga (and Poole) are just not that important in the scheme of things.

If the lost 1st round picks for dumping was so unimportant, so why are they nick picking on the Sacto 1st round pick protection then?

Giving out a bad contract that you have to spend a first round pick to get off of is definitely important - which is why they don’t want to do that again with Kuminga.

[Twinkie defense]

If the lost 1st round picks for dumping was so unimportant, so why are they nick picking on the Sacto 1st round pick protection then?

Regarding the Kings offer, I think the Warriors have a couple problems with it - it’s an undesirable contract that extends beyond the Curry/Butler/Green contracts, messing up their future flexibility. And they have to dump Hield or Moody to take it on. No way. So the Warriors get a protected pick for that, and what exactly do they get for Kuminga? Nothing?

Another problem with protected picks is the rules around trading picks and you lose flexibility if you don’t know when it will convey. And they already have that Poole pick hanging out there.

[EvanZ]

The pick is almost guaranteed to be the Spurs first round pick in 2031. So like…29? Lol

[vvoland]

The pick is almost guaranteed to be the Spurs first round pick in 2031. So like…29? Lol

Exactly. A garbage pick for a garbage deal.

[vvoland]

This CBA is about putting in a hard cap, calling it a 2nd apron, and having everyone kinda miss that. Like every CBA, this is about saving the owners from themselves and giving them a huge chip in contract negotiations, restricted or otherwise. With the money drowning out every other detail, the owners gave it to the players, no vaseline, again.

The players had exceptionally poor representation. Draymond gets it. That said, the players are all locked into this new dynamic for the next four seasons. So, they better get used to it. And, it's not just the players who lose out. The fans of financially well performing teams lose out too. Absent the restraints, the Dubs would be splashing around a lot of cash right now and Kuminga's salary tantrum would be an afterthought.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/draymond-green-blames-the-new-cba-and-the-second-apron-for-killing-nba-free-agency-as-we-once-knew-it/

I read that article, Green was spot on. Still disagree with you putting the blame on JK and calling it a tantrum but bygones and such..

[Twinkie defense]

For what contract?

That's up to Kuminga! He has two options.

[Twinkie defense]

LMAO WILL NOT TRADE but will TRADE FOR REAL VALUE. Basically keeping us in the same holding pattern. Yea this JK situation is all on Lacob, does not bode well for the future.

Nobody is offering anything good for Kuminga.

[Twinkie defense]

they should have moved him before he became an RFA and the restrictions clamped in.

Kuminga missing two months due to injury and spanning the trade deadline didn't make it easy to trade him.

[Twinkie defense]

The only counter I'd offer here is that we don't know what the market looked like for Kuminga last year. It's hard to get a sense of his real market is now given all the context surrounding his FA, but teams aren't killing themselves to find a way to bring him in. It's very possible that nobody was looking to give up assets for him, especially knowing that he was looking to get paid.

Yep I think that's right. Fans were assuming the Warriors were unwilling to trade Kuminga, e.g. for Paul George or Lauri Markkanen. However I don't think teams were that interested in Kuminga - he was going to be a (restricted) free agent and was signaling that he wanted a big pay day - and that's exactly what happened. I think teams were much more interested in Podz, who is a more reliable player and under team control at only $9 mil total over two seasons.

Having a guy who can get on the court with only a $4 mil cap hit and who is trending upwards is super valuable in the first and second apron era - valuable to the Warriors for sure, who are always up against the aprons.

[statsman]

they should have moved him before he became an RFA and the restrictions clamped in.

Kuminga missing two months due to injury and spanning the trade deadline didn't make it easy to trade him.

Yeah, that didn't help, if there ever was a plan to do it then.

OTOH, the Butler trade was done with the narrowest of margins under the hard cap at the 1st apron. The Warriors had no room under that hard cap to take on more salary after the Butler trade. They couldn't have switched SloMo to Kuminga because of the salary difference (which might have allowed the Warriors to have retained their 2025 first round pick).

I don't think Kuminga's salary by himself would have done the Warriors much good. Maybe one or two young players on rookie contracts. On second thought, that might have been better than what they've gone through since Kuminga returned from injury.

But if Lacob thought that Kuminga was the ticket to acquiring Giannis ...

[CS707]

It's Kuminga's fault for overestimating his value and not getting what he wants, but nope, the Warriors are still to blame for it from their side. If they weren't getting anywhere in negotiations and weren't getting a good feeling about it, then they should have moved him before he became an RFA and the restrictions clamped in. Nothing prevented them from doing that and I think every one of us here at least felt like we were watching the same bad re-run for the last 3 or so years between Kuminga and Kerr and does he fit with Curry, etc., so it's not like it came out of nowhere. Maybe they had plans to move him after the Jimmy acquisition but the injury messed up their plans, but that's just bad luck and it was bad luck for Kuminga too.

The only counter I'd offer here is that we don't know what the market looked like for Kuminga last year. It's hard to get a sense of his real market is now given all the context surrounding his FA, but teams aren't killing themselves to find a way to bring him in. It's very possible that nobody was looking to give up assets for him, especially knowing that he was looking to get paid.

If they were truly more concerned about BYC stuff and being able to trade him for a big fish in '24-'25, I don't think there was any contract they would have offered, other than something proportionally more than moody got (~4/60?). Small enough that his 4th year salary and his starting salary in the 1st year of the extension weren't too far apart. He would have NEVER taken that deal last summer.

This summer, it looks like they offered the 2/45 just the other week, when it was reported that the dubs were 'getting serious' about their offers to JK. That's 2/45, with a TO and no NT. xdrta mentioned dlo, a bunch of vet mins on MIL, and Hayes as folks that turned down the NTC but all but Hayes had a PO, not TO, in year two. Hayes just had the 1 year deal. So no one has accepted a 2nd non-guaranteed year that wasn't a Player option AND waived the inherent NTC. They dub's "serious" offer is trying to make JK the first to get reamed that way.

IF JK came out after that offer and said, we're done negotiating, it's the 3/82, the QO, or trade me, I'd be afraid that it's too toxic to move forward. All he's done is post an IG story saying 'I'd be on myself everyday.' Not exactly antonio brown on the dolphins. I wonder what their 'non-serious' offer was, an expired voucher to a vegas buffet after a 4 hour timeshare presentation?

I'm taking all the leaks about what the Dubs were/weren't looking for, doing, etc. with a grain of salt. It seems to me that Kuminga's agent went on the PR offensive a few weeks ago and my guess is that most of what we think we know is through that lens. I'm not saying you're not ultimately correct, just that there's a lot of conflicting logic when you start piecing it all together.

[Twinkie defense]

At the end of the day, they are very likely to end up at a reasonable compromise (3/75 w/ a mutual option or 2/50) with JK.

No way Warriors are going to give Kuminga $25 mil per. For one thing, their current offer is the biggest 25/26 salary on offer to Kuminga, why would they outbid themselves? And why would they lock themselves into a contract that could cripple their cap or be hard to get off of? Makes no sense.

Also, you can't have a mutual option - either it's a team option or a player option.

Why 1+1? They are essentially saying to Kuminga, we'll do something for you if you do something for us - instead of making $7.9 mil this season you'll make ~$22.5 mil. $14.6 mil free money! And we'll still grant your wish of playing for another team, and even work you into the lineup more regularly so you can showcase your skills. It's that second year of the contract that allows the Warriors to get something in return for Kuminga - at the cost of $14.6 mil.

[Twinkie defense]

I'm wondering what on earth is the reason for that rule. There are deals that all parties want to get done and they can't do it. Isn't the CBA supposed to encourage player movement and happiness? I'm failing to see how these rules benefit anyone. The teams, the players, the agents, and the fans, and by extension the league, all lose here.

All the NBA cap rules seem to be to try to prevent good teams from staying good for a long time. It's all in the name of "parity." They want to make it harder for teams over the cap to acquire players (especially expensive, good players).

[Twinkie defense]

But if Lacob thought that Kuminga was the ticket to acquiring Giannis ...

The Warriors cap is top- and bottom-heavy. A BAD Kuminga contract doesn't help them get Giannis but a $23 mil salary slot would sure help.

[EvanZ]

In terms of expected value Kuminga doesn't really have a choice but to take the GS offer. It seems like bad business to make any other decision and what I mean by that is to make a decision based on emotion.

[Onus]

LMAO WILL NOT TRADE but will TRADE FOR REAL VALUE. Basically keeping us in the same holding pattern. Yea this JK situation is all on Lacob, does not bode well for the future.

Nobody is offering anything good for Kuminga.

So they would trade him for something good, hence will not trade him is meaningless

[EvanZ]

LMAO WILL NOT TRADE but will TRADE FOR REAL VALUE. Basically keeping us in the same holding pattern. Yea this JK situation is all on Lacob, does not bode well for the future.

Nobody is offering anything good for Kuminga.

So they would trade him for something good, hence will not trade him is meaningless

They said they won't trade him this summer because there aren't any good deals. You seem to be fixated on the first part and not the second.

[Onus]

Nobody is offering anything good for Kuminga.

So they would trade him for something good, hence will not trade him is meaningless

They said they won't trade him this summer because there aren't any good deals. You seem to be fixated on the first part and not the second.

So if the kings removed the protections on the 2030 pick they would trade him this summer, so the only pertinent information is that they will only trade JK for "value".

TBH I think at the deadline they probably won't trade JK either because his value then isn't going to change and they aren't going to get anything of real "value" so we'll just end up picking that 2nd year up. So we'll probably have JK for the next 2 years as it's unlikely any team is going to "value" jk the way Lacob "values" JK. The 1+1 is really just in case another team values an expiring contract more than they value JK.