ATL - Fox Extension 4/229

[Ron Swanson]

Fitting that Harden played with both guys, because I'm fascinated to see how people will view him, Embiid, and Chris Paul's careers 15-years from now. Two MVP's and zero championship equity between three players with their kind of talent usually only happens when there's some dynasty type team or singular player blocking their path (Baylor/West/Oscar in the 60's, Malone/Stockton/Ewing/Barkley in the 90's), but for them it's largely just been injuries and/or their own fault (just blowing it in the biggest moments/games).

[Bernman]

The owners and players need to come together to amend the CBA before it expires in 5 years. I don't know if they can make it that long with there being such extreme salaries in each direction. Very good not great players are getting 57 million a year, while good players are netting a few mill.

That is not a product so much of the market rather restrictive rules. Teams are penny-pinching at the aprons but up to them they're splurging. Maybe just get rid of the 2nd apron & some hard-caps. But keep the 1st apron & punitive luxury tax. If they're spending the same what's the diff.

[emunney]

Was he not one of the best 3 players in the league for a several year stretch? 3x all defense, 2 scoring titles. On a basketball level, Embiid stands in rarefied air. I think he'll have a Chris Paul legacy where his greatness is overshadowed by his injuries.

Can you think of a player who's been more celebrated for accomplishing less? Chris Paul absolutely does not qualify.

What do you mean by accomplishing less? I think Embiid has accomplished a ton.

Define it however you want. His resume is closer to Dantley's than to Chris Paul's.

[skbucks1985]

There really isn't a great comparison for Embiid. Ralph Sampson and Brandon Roy aren't terrible but they were never top-tier MVP candidates much less won it. Derrick Rose isn't bad, but his peak was only 2 seasons and its very unlikely Embiid has the 2nd act Rose did as a good 3rd guard for a decade. The best comparison for Embiid in terms of accomplishments might be the last 76er to win an MVP, Allen Iverson minus the cultural cache Iverson had. The massive difference is I don't think many people have 'what if' questions about Iverson and also unlike Embiid injuries are not a big part of the conversation around Iverson's career.

[soxperry]

Fox is not worth that contract, not even close. And a new fear has arisen...

Do the Spurs do this thinking they can trade him to us as part of a Giannis deal down the road? Is Fox the stay-competitive copium pill?

Im gonna throw up

[KidA24]

There really isn't a great comparison for Embiid. Ralph Sampson and Brandon Roy aren't terrible but they were never top-tier MVP candidates much less won it. Derrick Rose isn't bad, but his peak was only 2 seasons and its very unlikely Embiid has the 2nd act Rose did as a good 3rd guard for a decade. The best comparison for Embiid in terms of accomplishments might be the last 76er to win an MVP, Allen Iverson minus the cultural cache Iverson had. The massive difference is I don't think many people have 'what if' questions about Iverson and also unlike Embiid injuries are not a big part of the conversation around Iverson's career.

Walton?

[Ron Swanson]

Eh, Dantley was always just a scorer on bad teams though. Never a legit MVP caliber guy, never a good defender, only a passable play-maker. One of the most efficient, one-dimensional shot merchants in league history, but a one-dimensional shot merchant nonetheless. If Brad Daugherty had a 2-3 year Orlando Shaq prime/peak, I think that's Embiid's career in a nutshell.

[emunney]

Eh, Dantley was always just a scorer on bad teams though. Never a legit MVP caliber guy, never a good defender, only a passable play-maker. One of the most efficient, one-dimensional shot merchants in league history, but a one-dimensional shot merchant nonetheless. If Brad Daugherty had a 2-3 year Orlando Shaq prime/peak, I think that's Embiid's career in a nutshell.

No argument that Embiid is a much better player than Dantley and that his peak capability puts him in the echelon of a Chris Paul. The question is what has he actually done, and the answer is not a hell of a lot relative to that level of esteem.

[skbucks1985]

There really isn't a great comparison for Embiid. Ralph Sampson and Brandon Roy aren't terrible but they were never top-tier MVP candidates much less won it. Derrick Rose isn't bad, but his peak was only 2 seasons and its very unlikely Embiid has the 2nd act Rose did as a good 3rd guard for a decade. The best comparison for Embiid in terms of accomplishments might be the last 76er to win an MVP, Allen Iverson minus the cultural cache Iverson had. The massive difference is I don't think many people have 'what if' questions about Iverson and also unlike Embiid injuries are not a big part of the conversation around Iverson's career.

Walton?

Walton's probably a better comparison than Roy, Sampson and Rose. But if Embiid had a finals MVP, his legacy would have a baseline floor that I don't think it does

[midranger]

What a gross contract for Fox

[DingleJerry]

I think we just have to get used to these contract. That is gonna be the new norm going forward, it just seems gross seeing it as we see them for the first time. Teams really have to learn to grow a backbone or find a way to keep the maxes for actual max level players and guys like Fox take 10-15 mil in the new cba setup or its gonna kill them from roster building aspects

[mattg]

Embiid has played with pretty excellent surrounding talent his entire career, and he's never made it past the 2nd round of the playoffs while playing at a much lower level in the playoffs than his typical regular season production.

He's the center version of T-Mac.

[Prez]

I do feel bad for Embiid. But one of the weird things that's happened recently is because he's been so hampered by injuries throughout his career, there's been a shift by many in the media to act as if every single playoff failure he's had was entirely injury related, as though much of it wasn't for pure basketball limitations in his game. Like he straight up isn't a good playoff performer by superstar standards (e.g. Jokic, Giannis, Curry, KD, LeBron obviously, prime Kawhi, etc) and it feels like when this is all over for him, that's just going to get glossed over in favor of "man he just never got a fair chance because of the injuries".

Also, I recognize we're in a different world $$$ wise in the league today, but my god that Fox deal. Wemby's such an absurd talent though it might not matter, and I'm super high on Harper/Castle moving forward too.

[Bucks4005]

Fitting that Harden played with both guys, because I'm fascinated to see how people will view him, Embiid, and Chris Paul's careers 15-years from now. Two MVP's and zero championship equity between three players with their kind of talent usually only happens when there's some dynasty type team or singular player blocking their path (Baylor/West/Oscar in the 60's, Malone/Stockton/Ewing/Barkley in the 90's), but for them it's largely just been injuries and/or their own fault (just blowing it in the biggest moments/games).

I mean, Chris Paul has at least been a key piece of a team that made it to the Finals. So the argument for him being better isn’t so bad, and it’s not like you can bash him for losing a close series with the Bucks. It’d be like bashing Haliburton for the Pacers losing to OKC a bit? Yea, it sucks for him, but it shouldn’t really hurt his legacy because getting to the Finals is an accomplishment in itself.

[GoldenAntlers]

I do feel bad for Embiid. But one of the weird things that's happened recently is because he's been so hampered by injuries throughout his career, there's been a shift by many in the media to act as if every single playoff failure he's had was entirely injury related, as though much of it wasn't for pure basketball limitations in his game. Like he straight up isn't a good playoff performer by superstar standards (e.g. Jokic, Giannis, Curry, KD, LeBron obviously, prime Kawhi, etc) and it feels like when this is all over for him, that's just going to get glossed over in favor of "man he just never got a fair chance because of the injuries".

Also, I recognize we're in a different world $$$ wise in the league today, but my god that Fox deal. Wemby's such an absurd talent though it might not matter, and I'm super high on Harper/Castle moving forward too.

I figured that was a "salary slot" future trade signing, but I don't know enough about contracts.

[midranger]

I do feel bad for Embiid. But one of the weird things that's happened recently is because he's been so hampered by injuries throughout his career, there's been a shift by many in the media to act as if every single playoff failure he's had was entirely injury related, as though much of it wasn't for pure basketball limitations in his game. Like he straight up isn't a good playoff performer by superstar standards (e.g. Jokic, Giannis, Curry, KD, LeBron obviously, prime Kawhi, etc) and it feels like when this is all over for him, that's just going to get glossed over in favor of "man he just never got a fair chance because of the injuries".

Also, I recognize we're in a different world $$$ wise in the league today, but my god that Fox deal. Wemby's such an absurd talent though it might not matter, and I'm super high on Harper/Castle moving forward too.

I figured that was a "salary slot" future trade signing, but I don't know enough about contracts.

I was just thinking about this framing.

For instance, now Fox and Castle (or Harper) for Jaylen Brown works under the CBA if the Celts are treading water and want to do a soft rebuild to balance the roster while Tatum is out.

[FlagsFlyForever]

Can you think of a player who's been more celebrated for accomplishing less? Chris Paul absolutely does not qualify.

What do you mean by accomplishing less? I think Embiid has accomplished a ton.

Define it however you want. His resume is closer to Dantley's than to Chris Paul's.

MVP, Olympic gold medal, 70 point/18 rebound game.

Who are some players with comparable accomplishments who are much less celebrated than Embiid?


Career MVP voting shares >2.0:

1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
4. Larry Bird
5. Magic Johnson
6. Bill Russell
7. Nikola Jokic
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Shaquille O'Neal
10. Karl Malone
11. Tim Duncan
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Giannis Antetokounmpo
14. James Harden
15. Kevin Durant
16. David Robinson
17. Moses Malone
18. Kevin Garnett
19. Bob Pettit
20. Stephen Curry
21. Oscar Robertson
22. Hakeem Olajuwon
23. Charles Barkley
24. Steve Nash
25. Joel Embiid
26. Jerry West

[midranger]

I think guys like

D Rose
TMac
Grant Hill
Amare Stoudamire
Yao Ming
Ray Allen


Would be in that conversation

Hell, even Mitch Richmond and Joe Johnson are top 50 all time in points.

[German Athens]

Fitting that Harden played with both guys, because I'm fascinated to see how people will view him, Embiid, and Chris Paul's careers 15-years from now. Two MVP's and zero championship equity between three players with their kind of talent usually only happens when there's some dynasty type team or singular player blocking their path (Baylor/West/Oscar in the 60's, Malone/Stockton/Ewing/Barkley in the 90's), but for them it's largely just been injuries and/or their own fault (just blowing it in the biggest moments/games).

For Chris Paul, I’m expecting his reputation to rise in 15 to 20 years, possibly nauseatingly so.

He led the league in EPM more than anyone else over the last 25years, and I think the stats community will latch onto that. I’m thinking he might be the next gen’s KG.

I suppose that would be an improvement of discourse, because rather than just looking at skills and saying he could do anything, and attributing extra value for things he didn’t actually do, they’d be giving CP credit for stats on things he accomplished, but it’ll probably swing too hard in the other direction.

[drew881]

The owners and players need to come together to amend the CBA before it expires in 5 years. I don't know if they can make it that long with there being such extreme salaries in each direction. Very good not great players are getting 57 million a year, while good players are netting a few mill.

That is not a product so much of the market rather restrictive rules. Teams are penny-pinching at the aprons but up to them they're splurging. Maybe just get rid of the 2nd apron & some hard-caps. But keep the 1st apron & punitive luxury tax. If they're spending the same what's the diff.

Not sure they’ll be interested in making a fix until mid range players bolt for other leagues.