2025 Offseason Thread Vol.6

[SoFlaKingReal]

It’s becoming more and more obvious that the Heat had their hands tied with the Duncan situation. Once Duncan opted out, they were free and clear…why would they take on Fontecchio’s 8 mil?

It appears our only options were Duncan opting in to the 20 or we trade him to Detroit for Fontecchio.

[twix2500]

Watch on YouTube

The beginning of the Heat Mavs rivalry

[twix2500]

Watch on YouTube

[SA37]

Spoiler:

I dont think it's unfathomable for the Bucks to see:

Jak as the pg of the future.
Ware as the C of the future.
Herro as the hometown kid and stop gap

Multiple unprotected picks and swaps

As the basis of a deal.

IMO, Herro is a "run of the mill" guard. That sounds harsh, but he's not even top-10 at his position. And it's less about him and more about the talent in the league: the NBA is just full of guards than can get you 20-25 a game. How much better is Herro than Coby White, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Austin Reaves, Cam Thomas, Bradley Beal, Anfernee Simons, Devin Vassell, or CJ McCollum?

And, that Miami offer is beatable and Giannis goes to a better team:

OKC: Holmgren, Dieng, Topic, and picks (from other teams)

San Antonio: Harper, Sochan, Johnson, and picks.

Houston: Sengun OR Jabari Smith, Sheppard, and picks


Bam is "unique"; there are very few players who can play both sides of the ball as well as he does. Yeah, he's passive offensively, but he still gets you 20/game and is an all-NBA level defender.

What 10 SGs do you have better than Herro? Not disagreeing, just curious. I haven’t dug into it much but off the top of my head it’s probably one of the weaker if not the weakest position in the league.

Yes, it's a weak position, but there is a bit of an issue with the position argument because positions and roles aren't quite as clearly defined as before. Is Paul George a SG or a SF? Is Harden a PG or a SG? Is Curry a PG or a SG? What about Tyrese Maxey? Even Herro handles the ball so much it's hard to define him purely as a SG.

In any case, I think (no particular order) S Curry, D Booker, J Brown, D Mitchell, A Edwards, and SGA are clearly superior. Then it's personal taste when it comes to Z Lavine, D Bane, Jalen Green, Bradley Beal, Austin Reaves, CJ McCollum, D Vassell, and RJ Barrett.

If you throw in "primary offensive initiators" and/or point guards like Doncic, Tyrese Maxey, James Harden, K Irving, D DeRozan, Paul George, K Leonard, J Tatum, Lillard, Jalen Williams, J Brunson...etc it gets even more complicated.

[carnageta]

Spoiler:

IMO, Herro is a "run of the mill" guard. That sounds harsh, but he's not even top-10 at his position. And it's less about him and more about the talent in the league: the NBA is just full of guards than can get you 20-25 a game. How much better is Herro than Coby White, Norman Powell, RJ Barrett, Austin Reaves, Cam Thomas, Bradley Beal, Anfernee Simons, Devin Vassell, or CJ McCollum?

And, that Miami offer is beatable and Giannis goes to a better team:

OKC: Holmgren, Dieng, Topic, and picks (from other teams)

San Antonio: Harper, Sochan, Johnson, and picks.

Houston: Sengun OR Jabari Smith, Sheppard, and picks


Bam is "unique"; there are very few players who can play both sides of the ball as well as he does. Yeah, he's passive offensively, but he still gets you 20/game and is an all-NBA level defender.

What 10 SGs do you have better than Herro? Not disagreeing, just curious. I haven’t dug into it much but off the top of my head it’s probably one of the weaker if not the weakest position in the league.

Yes, it's a weak position, but there is a bit of an issue with the position argument because positions and roles aren't quite as clearly defined as before. Is Paul George a SG or a SF? Is Harden a PG or a SG? Is Curry a PG or a SG? What about Tyrese Maxey? Even Herro handles the ball so much it's hard to define him purely as a SG.

In any case, I think (no particular order) S Curry, D Booker, J Brown, D Mitchell, A Edwards, and SGA are clearly superior. Then it's personal taste when it comes to Z Lavine, D Bane, Jalen Green, Bradley Beal, Austin Reaves, CJ McCollum, D Vassell, and RJ Barrett.

If you throw in "primary offensive initiators" and/or point guards like Doncic, Tyrese Maxey, James Harden, K Irving, D DeRozan, Paul George, K Leonard, J Tatum, Lillard, Jalen Williams, J Brunson...etc it gets even more complicated.

I don't think it's really that complicated. Curry is clearly a PG. Harden is clearly a PG. Jaylen Brown is a SF (Jrue Holiday and Derrick white were the starting backcourt for the Celtics). Paul George was a SG like 12 years ago, he's been a forward for the past 6 seasons. Tyrese Maxey is a point guard. Kyrie is a PG. Derozan is a forward. Brunson is a PG.


Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards, SGA, and JDub are all SGs and they are better than Tyler. Herro falls in the 6-10 range, depending on how you want to stack him next to Beal, Bane, Lavine, McCollum, etc. Personally I think he's better than all of those guys.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Fontechccio waive and stretch has to be done by the end of August so we still have some time to decide but as of right now it seems like a very viable solution to get under the tax and sign some of the free agents that are still out there. Could be a combination of Burks or a buyout of Vucevic.

[VaDe255]

Spoiler:

What 10 SGs do you have better than Herro? Not disagreeing, just curious. I haven’t dug into it much but off the top of my head it’s probably one of the weaker if not the weakest position in the league.

Yes, it's a weak position, but there is a bit of an issue with the position argument because positions and roles aren't quite as clearly defined as before. Is Paul George a SG or a SF? Is Harden a PG or a SG? Is Curry a PG or a SG? What about Tyrese Maxey? Even Herro handles the ball so much it's hard to define him purely as a SG.

In any case, I think (no particular order) S Curry, D Booker, J Brown, D Mitchell, A Edwards, and SGA are clearly superior. Then it's personal taste when it comes to Z Lavine, D Bane, Jalen Green, Bradley Beal, Austin Reaves, CJ McCollum, D Vassell, and RJ Barrett.

If you throw in "primary offensive initiators" and/or point guards like Doncic, Tyrese Maxey, James Harden, K Irving, D DeRozan, Paul George, K Leonard, J Tatum, Lillard, Jalen Williams, J Brunson...etc it gets even more complicated.

I don't think it's really that complicated. Curry is clearly a PG. Harden is clearly a PG. Jaylen Brown is a SF (Jrue Holiday and Derrick white were the starting backcourt for the Celtics). Paul George was a SG like 12 years ago, he's been a forward for the past 6 seasons. Tyrese Maxey is a point guard. Kyrie is a PG. Derozan is a forward. Brunson is a PG.


Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards, SGA, and JDub are all SGs and they are better than Tyler. Herro falls in the 6-10 range, depending on how you want to stack him next to Beal, Bane, Lavine, McCollum, etc. Personally I think he's better than all of those guys.

This perspective doesn’t align with the modern game of basketball, where traditional positional labels have become increasingly outdated. In today’s NBA, it’s more about schemes, matchups and overall versatility than rigid roles. The rise of "pace and space" has transformed the game, offenses are more efficient than ever, not because defense matters less, but because rule changes and analytics have optimized offensive execution to its highest level.

Players are now evaluated less by their position and almost exclusively by the skills they bring to a system. Ball-handling, playmaking, shooting, off-ball movement and defensive switchability are expected across the board, whether you're labeled a guard, wing, or forward. That’s why drawing firm positional lines has become so difficult: the modern game simply doesn’t operate within those boundaries.

[CrossOver]

It’s becoming more and more obvious that the Heat had their hands tied with the Duncan situation. Once Duncan opted out, they were free and clear…why would they take on Fontecchio’s 8 mil?

It appears our only options were Duncan opting in to the 20 or we trade him to Detroit for Fontecchio.

It was an early termination option for Duncan so if he didn't terminate his deal Miami would have waived him and they would have had 10mil in dead cap because $9.9 mil was guaranteed to him if he went into that last year of his 20mil deal.

Miami likely told him if he terminated his deal they would help get him moved to somewhere he can find a longer term team without losing that money. Taking back Fontecchio saved some money in the process given where the original outcome was. If they waive and stretch him then they would just have 2.8mil of dead cap to deal with for the following two seasons. It would also allow them to sign someone to a minimum for this year if they want to find a big for depth.

[MettaWorldPanda]

It’s becoming more and more obvious that the Heat had their hands tied with the Duncan situation. Once Duncan opted out, they were free and clear…why would they take on Fontecchio’s 8 mil?

It appears our only options were Duncan opting in to the 20 or we trade him to Detroit for Fontecchio.

It was an early termination option for Duncan so if he didn't terminate his deal Miami would have waived him and they would have had 10mil in dead cap because $9.9 mil was guaranteed to him if he went into that last year of his 20mil deal.

Miami likely told him if he terminated his deal they would help get him moved to somewhere he can find a longer term team without losing that money. Taking back Fontecchio saved some money in the process given where the original outcome was. If they waive and stretch him then they would just have 2.8mil of dead cap to deal with for the following two seasons. It would also allow them to sign someone to a minimum for this year if they want to find a big for depth.

We would have enough under the line to sign two vet free agents at 1.8 per or Sign someone for like 3 mil and have enough for a two way. It opens up plenty of options.

[lastb1ckman]

Spoiler:

What 10 SGs do you have better than Herro? Not disagreeing, just curious. I haven’t dug into it much but off the top of my head it’s probably one of the weaker if not the weakest position in the league.

Yes, it's a weak position, but there is a bit of an issue with the position argument because positions and roles aren't quite as clearly defined as before. Is Paul George a SG or a SF? Is Harden a PG or a SG? Is Curry a PG or a SG? What about Tyrese Maxey? Even Herro handles the ball so much it's hard to define him purely as a SG.

In any case, I think (no particular order) S Curry, D Booker, J Brown, D Mitchell, A Edwards, and SGA are clearly superior. Then it's personal taste when it comes to Z Lavine, D Bane, Jalen Green, Bradley Beal, Austin Reaves, CJ McCollum, D Vassell, and RJ Barrett.

If you throw in "primary offensive initiators" and/or point guards like Doncic, Tyrese Maxey, James Harden, K Irving, D DeRozan, Paul George, K Leonard, J Tatum, Lillard, Jalen Williams, J Brunson...etc it gets even more complicated.

I don't think it's really that complicated. Curry is clearly a PG. Harden is clearly a PG. Jaylen Brown is a SF (Jrue Holiday and Derrick white were the starting backcourt for the Celtics). Paul George was a SG like 12 years ago, he's been a forward for the past 6 seasons. Tyrese Maxey is a point guard. Kyrie is a PG. Derozan is a forward. Brunson is a PG.


Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards, SGA, and JDub are all SGs and they are better than Tyler. Herro falls in the 6-10 range, depending on how you want to stack him next to Beal, Bane, Lavine, McCollum, etc. Personally I think he's better than all of those guys.

In the year 2025, the only guy on that list outside Booker, Mitchell, Edwards, SGA and JDub thats debatable is Bane. Herro is much younger and had a much better season than those last couple of guys. And even then Bane has a lot less experience as the main guy.

[MettaWorldPanda]

Breaking down the math for everyone up in arms about the potential waive and stretch of Simone Fontechccio

Current depth chart

C Kelel Ware C
PF Bam Adebayo PF Nikola Jovic PF Keshad Johnson
SF Andrew Wiggins SF Jaime Jaquez Jr SF Haywood Highsmith (SF Simone Fontechccio)
SG Norman Powell SG/SF Pelle Larrson
PG/SG Tyler Herro PG Davion Mitchell PG Kasparus Jakucionis (PG Terry Rozier)

Current roster at 14 with 1 roster spot opt

Currently 1.4 million over the tax line with 1 roster spot open

* Simone Fontechccio currently making 8.3 million as the 4th wing on the depth chart

* Potential buy out waive and stretch would be 2.7 x 3 years

* Buyout opens up 5.6 million worth of cap space this year. Deduct the 1.4 currently over and it leaves us with 4.2 million to fill out two roster spots with vet minimums. NBA vet minimums for 10 year tenured vets you are allowed to sign them for something like 3.2 million but it only counts 1.8 against the cap. We would be able to sign two tenured vets to fill out the roster.

* Potential vets we could sign include bringing back vet SG Alec Burks who would fit in nicely backing up Larrson. Potential buyout of Nikola Vucevic could be looming would fill the void left at backup C. Precious Achuiwa is still out there, Gary Payton or Malcom Brogden if we want to shore up the PG spot with a vet. We would have plenty of options.

[SoFlaKingReal]

It’s becoming more and more obvious that the Heat had their hands tied with the Duncan situation. Once Duncan opted out, they were free and clear…why would they take on Fontecchio’s 8 mil?

It appears our only options were Duncan opting in to the 20 or we trade him to Detroit for Fontecchio.

It was an early termination option for Duncan so if he didn't terminate his deal Miami would have waived him and they would have had 10mil in dead cap because $9.9 mil was guaranteed to him if he went into that last year of his 20mil deal.

Miami likely told him if he terminated his deal they would help get him moved to somewhere he can find a longer term team without losing that money. Taking back Fontecchio saved some money in the process given where the original outcome was. If they waive and stretch him then they would just have 2.8mil of dead cap to deal with for the following two seasons. It would also allow them to sign someone to a minimum for this year if they want to find a big for depth.

We are on the same page. What I’m saying is that there was clearly some sort of under the table agreement.

When the news broke that Duncan opted to become a free agent…that meant we were off the hook for the entire contract. That was too good to be true though because we were already working with Detroit and had to bring back Font. There was never a scenario where Duncan just became a free agent and gave us the full cap relief.

[MartyConlonJr]

Read on Twitter

Absolutely not, WAY too much!!

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but:

C - Bam Adebayo / Simone Fontecchio
PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo / Haywood Highsmith
SF - Nikola Jovic /Jaime Jaquez Jr
SG - Norm Powell / Pelle Larsson
PG - Davion Mitchell / Kasparas Jakucionis / Terry Rozier

Is unlikely to have a pick swap actually happen with Milwaukee in 27 or 29.

I do worry that Giannis will be 35 in 2030, and Bam 32, so the 30, 31 and 32 picks could be significant, but Milwaukee has very few avenues to improve with all their own draft picks gone.

So Milwaukee themselves would be banking on the growth of Herro and Ware primarily to not be in the lotto, as well as FA which I doubt goes well for them for the next 5 years. I would imagine we would be pick swapping something moderately different in 2031. So it is the 2030 and 2032 picks that are the big deal, and that is a cost you pay for an MVP player.

[Johnny Fontane]

Breaking news: the cost of superstars is exorbitant unless your name is Luka doncic and the receiver is lakers. Yes it would cost that much to get Giannis

[3ammy3uck3ts]

Read on Twitter

Absolutely not, WAY too much!!

I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not, but:

C - Bam Adebayo / Simone Fontecchio
PF - Giannis Antetokounmpo / Haywood Highsmith
SF - Nikola Jovic /Jaime Jaquez Jr
SG - Norm Powell / Pelle Larsson
PG - Davion Mitchell / Kasparas Jakucionis / Terry Rozier

Is unlikely to have a pick swap actually happen with Milwaukee in 27 or 29.

I do worry that Giannis will be 35 in 2030, and Bam 32, so the 30, 31 and 32 picks could be significant, but Milwaukee has very few avenues to improve with all their own draft picks gone.

So Milwaukee themselves would be banking on the growth of Herro and Ware primarily to not be in the lotto, as well as FA which I doubt goes well for them for the next 5 years. I would imagine we would be pick swapping something moderately different in 2031. So it is the 2030 and 2032 picks that are the big deal, and that is a cost you pay for an MVP player.

100% sarcasm, by 2030 we’d already have 3 championships with that build so I’m not too worried about their ages tbh.

[SA37]

Yes, it's a weak position, but there is a bit of an issue with the position argument because positions and roles aren't quite as clearly defined as before. Is Paul George a SG or a SF? Is Harden a PG or a SG? Is Curry a PG or a SG? What about Tyrese Maxey? Even Herro handles the ball so much it's hard to define him purely as a SG.

In any case, I think (no particular order) S Curry, D Booker, J Brown, D Mitchell, A Edwards, and SGA are clearly superior. Then it's personal taste when it comes to Z Lavine, D Bane, Jalen Green, Bradley Beal, Austin Reaves, CJ McCollum, D Vassell, and RJ Barrett.

If you throw in "primary offensive initiators" and/or point guards like Doncic, Tyrese Maxey, James Harden, K Irving, D DeRozan, Paul George, K Leonard, J Tatum, Lillard, Jalen Williams, J Brunson...etc it gets even more complicated.

I don't think it's really that complicated. Curry is clearly a PG. Harden is clearly a PG. Jaylen Brown is a SF (Jrue Holiday and Derrick white were the starting backcourt for the Celtics). Paul George was a SG like 12 years ago, he's been a forward for the past 6 seasons. Tyrese Maxey is a point guard. Kyrie is a PG. Derozan is a forward. Brunson is a PG.


Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards, SGA, and JDub are all SGs and they are better than Tyler. Herro falls in the 6-10 range, depending on how you want to stack him next to Beal, Bane, Lavine, McCollum, etc. Personally I think he's better than all of those guys.

In the year 2025, the only guy on that list outside Booker, Mitchell, Edwards, SGA and JDub thats debatable is Bane. Herro is much younger and had a much better season than those last couple of guys. And even then Bane has a lot less experience as the main guy.

Youth means nothing. It's just something like to bring up to speculate on a player getting better, which is a different discussion to who is currently better.

Zach Lavine just put up 23-4-4 on 51 fg% 44 3pt% 82 ft%. Nothing to sneeze at.

The point is less about debating whether Herro is slightly better/worse than X; my larger point is Herro is farther behind the guys I listed than he is in front of the guys he is ostensibly better than. At least that is where things currently stand.

Herro may build on his excellent season last year, but I need to see it and so does the organization if it is going to commit $120-$140M extending him.

[Vertical Limit]

Breaking news: the cost of superstars is exorbitant unless your name is Luka doncic and the receiver is lakers. Yes it would cost that much to get Giannis

It would cost more than that.. and i would still do it. Id field Giannis Bam and a bunch of g leaguers for a seasons sacrifice and build from there. And we still make the playoffs on that first “rough draft” season.

[contract]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Entertaining ludicrous hypotheticals for a moment, if you can get Giannis for that package you do it and worry about the rest later.

That being said, Giannis is also a guy I'm also kind of lukewarm on for that true superstar label, he has some glaring weaknesses in his game for the type of role he likes to play, and I can see that squad failing to bring home a chip with a lot of fans scrambling to blame the coaches or the team for not acquiring the right pieces around them.

Just something about a 6'10'' guy who can't shoot and is also only an average passer, but wants to handle the ball on the perimeter, doesn't jive with me. He gets away with it with pure dominance, but the further removed we get from 2021 the more I begin to question if that year was a bit of a fluke. Not saying you don't take him if you can get him, but he's always felt like a flawed archetype to me.

Also the fact he relies so heavily on his athleticism for his game makes you question if his career trajectory will match guys like Dwight Howard or Shawn Kemp... and that is a scary thought if you want to be the team paying him the max until 35.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Entertaining ludicrous hypotheticals for a moment, if you can get Giannis for that package you do it and worry about the rest later.

That being said, Giannis is also a guy I'm also kind of lukewarm on for that true superstar label, he has some glaring weaknesses in his game for the type of role he likes to play, and I can see that squad failing to bring home a chip with a lot of fans scrambling to blame the coaches or the team for not acquiring the right pieces around them.

Just something about a 6'10'' guy who can't shoot and is also only an average passer, but wants to handle the ball on the perimeter, doesn't jive with me. He gets away with it with pure dominance, but the further removed we get from 2021 the more I begin to question if that year was a bit of a fluke. Not saying you don't take him if you can get him, but he's always felt like a flawed archetype to me.

Also the fact he relies so heavily on his athleticism for his game makes you question if his career trajectory will match guys like Dwight Howard or Shawn Kemp... and that is a scary thought if you want to be the team paying him the max until 35.

You get me giannis and 4 starters who can defend and shoot (and 6th man bucket getter), I like my chances vs anyone for the next 2 or 3 years.