2025 Offseason Thread Vol.6

[lastb1ckman]

I don't think it's really that complicated. Curry is clearly a PG. Harden is clearly a PG. Jaylen Brown is a SF (Jrue Holiday and Derrick white were the starting backcourt for the Celtics). Paul George was a SG like 12 years ago, he's been a forward for the past 6 seasons. Tyrese Maxey is a point guard. Kyrie is a PG. Derozan is a forward. Brunson is a PG.


Devin Booker, Donovan Mitchell, Anthony Edwards, SGA, and JDub are all SGs and they are better than Tyler. Herro falls in the 6-10 range, depending on how you want to stack him next to Beal, Bane, Lavine, McCollum, etc. Personally I think he's better than all of those guys.

In the year 2025, the only guy on that list outside Booker, Mitchell, Edwards, SGA and JDub thats debatable is Bane. Herro is much younger and had a much better season than those last couple of guys. And even then Bane has a lot less experience as the main guy.

Youth means nothing. It's just something like to bring up to speculate on a player getting better, which is a different discussion to who is currently better.

Zach Lavine just put up 23-4-4 on 51 fg% 44 3pt% 82 ft%. Nothing to sneeze at.

The point is less about debating whether Herro is slightly better/worse than X; my larger point is Herro is farther behind the guys I listed than he is in front of the guys he is ostensibly better than. At least that is where things currently stand.

Herro may build on his excellent season last year, but I need to see it and so does the organization if it is going to commit $120-$140M extending him.

If we're strictly talking about this season, Herro had a better season than Bane, Beal, Lavine, McCollum. So he's better right now.

But the thing is, when considering whether a player is worth a contract, how can you do that without considering age? For example, its far more likely Herro keeps up his current production over the next 4-5 seasons than the guys lower than him because he's 25 and they're 30 or older. So he's worth more/more likely to get big money atm.

[al bondiga]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

[broke]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

I don't think it was the fact fans and people thought Duncan was overrated, just overpaid.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

In the year 2025, the only guy on that list outside Booker, Mitchell, Edwards, SGA and JDub thats debatable is Bane. Herro is much younger and had a much better season than those last couple of guys. And even then Bane has a lot less experience as the main guy.

Youth means nothing. It's just something like to bring up to speculate on a player getting better, which is a different discussion to who is currently better.

Zach Lavine just put up 23-4-4 on 51 fg% 44 3pt% 82 ft%. Nothing to sneeze at.

The point is less about debating whether Herro is slightly better/worse than X; my larger point is Herro is farther behind the guys I listed than he is in front of the guys he is ostensibly better than. At least that is where things currently stand.

Herro may build on his excellent season last year, but I need to see it and so does the organization if it is going to commit $120-$140M extending him.

If we're strictly talking about this season, Herro had a better season than Bane, Beal, Lavine, McCollum. So he's better right now.

But the thing is, when considering whether a player is worth a contract, how can you do that without considering age? For example, its far more likely Herro keeps up his current production over the next 4-5 seasons than the guys lower than him because he's 25 and they're 30 or older. So he's worth more/more likely to get big money atm.

I think it's a coin toss with Lavine, but otherwise I agree.

Age matters to a degree, but older players tend to get a bad rap. In general, people like to run with fantasies about the improvement young players will make and jump to conclusions about when a player will decline. That's just the nature of things. In Herro's case, he'll turn 26 in January and, in general, players hit their ceiling around this age.

Herro has largely underperformed in the playoffs and is far from being an elite player. I see his impact somewhere in the Eddie Jones range. Miami paid a premium for Jones to pair him with Mourning (along with maxing out Brian Grant). I see parallels with Adebayo/Herro, except Miami doesn't have an Alonzo Mourning. Miami ended up with 2 very overpaid players.

In an ideal world, Miami would wait until Herro's deal expires before re-signing/extending him. I understand that would likely create a lot of tension in the real world, but I am hopeful this is something Miami and Herro will put off until next summer to see how Herro produces and how this team fits with (or without) the improvements from Miami's unproven guys (Mitchell, Ware, Jovic...etc)

[contract]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

There are plenty of shooters in the NBA as good or better than Duncan. Duncan was a near special shooter for a minute.

Exactly 1 minute.

[Crazy-Canuck]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

There are plenty of shooters in the NBA as good or better than Duncan. Duncan was a near special shooter for a minute.

Exactly 1 minute.

Duncan is a movement shooter which is insanely valuable. On this team, you have herro, now Powell, and sometimes wiggins. These 3 can get their 3 ball off of movement or self creation. The rest of the team is essentially catch and shoot.

The problem with Robinson was his contract and role. If he was paid less, he'd be valuable. At 20+? Not so much. 2nd was his role/roster construction. If he's your 6th or 7th man surrounded by 4 defenders and a creator? He's a weapon. Put him out there with no other creators and poor defenders? He's a liability. Imo, he will regain value in Detroit. They've got a creator and defenders around him. Duncan will produce.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Spoiler:

Youth means nothing. It's just something like to bring up to speculate on a player getting better, which is a different discussion to who is currently better.

Zach Lavine just put up 23-4-4 on 51 fg% 44 3pt% 82 ft%. Nothing to sneeze at.

The point is less about debating whether Herro is slightly better/worse than X; my larger point is Herro is farther behind the guys I listed than he is in front of the guys he is ostensibly better than. At least that is where things currently stand.

Herro may build on his excellent season last year, but I need to see it and so does the organization if it is going to commit $120-$140M extending him.

If we're strictly talking about this season, Herro had a better season than Bane, Beal, Lavine, McCollum. So he's better right now.

But the thing is, when considering whether a player is worth a contract, how can you do that without considering age? For example, its far more likely Herro keeps up his current production over the next 4-5 seasons than the guys lower than him because he's 25 and they're 30 or older. So he's worth more/more likely to get big money atm.

I think it's a coin toss with Lavine, but otherwise I agree.

Age matters to a degree, but older players tend to get a bad rap. In general, people like to run with fantasies about the improvement young players will make and jump to conclusions about when a player will decline. That's just the nature of things. In Herro's case, he'll turn 26 in January and, in general, players hit their ceiling around this age.

Herro has largely underperformed in the playoffs and is far from being an elite player. I see his impact somewhere in the Eddie Jones range. Miami paid a premium for Jones to pair him with Mourning (along with maxing out Brian Grant). I see parallels with Adebayo/Herro, except Miami doesn't have an Alonzo Mourning. Miami ended up with 2 very overpaid players.

In an ideal world, Miami would wait until Herro's deal expires before re-signing/extending him. I understand that would likely create a lot of tension in the real world, but I am hopeful this is something Miami and Herro will put off until next summer to see how Herro produces and how this team fits with (or without) the improvements from Miami's unproven guys (Mitchell, Ware, Jovic...etc)

That's basically a list of overpaid scoring guards who cant win anything as a high paying starter. Bane might be the exception because he can somewhat hold his own. We'll see what he does in Orlando.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Entertaining ludicrous hypotheticals for a moment, if you can get Giannis for that package you do it and worry about the rest later.

That being said, Giannis is also a guy I'm also kind of lukewarm on for that true superstar label, he has some glaring weaknesses in his game for the type of role he likes to play, and I can see that squad failing to bring home a chip with a lot of fans scrambling to blame the coaches or the team for not acquiring the right pieces around them.

Just something about a 6'10'' guy who can't shoot and is also only an average passer, but wants to handle the ball on the perimeter, doesn't jive with me. He gets away with it with pure dominance, but the further removed we get from 2021 the more I begin to question if that year was a bit of a fluke. Not saying you don't take him if you can get him, but he's always felt like a flawed archetype to me.

Also the fact he relies so heavily on his athleticism for his game makes you question if his career trajectory will match guys like Dwight Howard or Shawn Kemp... and that is a scary thought if you want to be the team paying him the max until 35.

You get me giannis and 4 starters who can defend and shoot (and 6th man bucket getter), I like my chances vs anyone for the next 2 or 3 years.

I won't say no to him, don't get me wrong, but he's not LeBron, he's got flaws that can be exploited vs good teams. Still, far better than anything we have right now.

It does beg the question though, who is the ideal running mate for him? I would have thought Dame would fill a lot of those boxes but that tandem never really clicked (Dame tended to perform better without Giannis on the floor). Pairing him with Joker covers each others weaknesses really well, that would be frightening if Denver found a way to get him there.

[Crazy-Canuck]

Entertaining ludicrous hypotheticals for a moment, if you can get Giannis for that package you do it and worry about the rest later.

That being said, Giannis is also a guy I'm also kind of lukewarm on for that true superstar label, he has some glaring weaknesses in his game for the type of role he likes to play, and I can see that squad failing to bring home a chip with a lot of fans scrambling to blame the coaches or the team for not acquiring the right pieces around them.

Just something about a 6'10'' guy who can't shoot and is also only an average passer, but wants to handle the ball on the perimeter, doesn't jive with me. He gets away with it with pure dominance, but the further removed we get from 2021 the more I begin to question if that year was a bit of a fluke. Not saying you don't take him if you can get him, but he's always felt like a flawed archetype to me.

Also the fact he relies so heavily on his athleticism for his game makes you question if his career trajectory will match guys like Dwight Howard or Shawn Kemp... and that is a scary thought if you want to be the team paying him the max until 35.

You get me giannis and 4 starters who can defend and shoot (and 6th man bucket getter), I like my chances vs anyone for the next 2 or 3 years.

I won't say no to him, don't get me wrong, but he's not LeBron, he's got flaws that can be exploited vs good teams. Still, far better than anything we have right now.

It does beg the question though, who is the ideal running mate for him? I would have thought Dame would fill a lot of those boxes but that tandem never really clicked (Dame tended to perform better without Giannis on the floor). Pairing him with Joker covers each others weaknesses really well, that would be frightening if Denver found a way to get him there.

I was listening to a podcast recently and they talked about the new blueprint being "only as good as your weakest link". Meaning no liabilities on either end of the floor. It made sense to me.

One way players aren't valued in the new NBA compared to the past.

The one way scorers are diminished.
The one way defenders are gone.

Scorers need to defend and defenders need to at least be able to shoot. There's a reason Mitchell got passed around. Now is his 3 ball legit? If not, that's another tough contract to get off of.

So giannis had the most success with a pg who can defend and shoot (jrue), a wing who could defend and shoot(middleton), a big who could defend and shoot (lopez). Then a bunch of bench players who could do one or the other to mix and match with the core 4.

They messed up badly by adding Dame and kuzma. Its basically the opposite of what made them successful. Its why the turner move happened regardless of cost: it fits. It's also why they inquired about Wiggins.lakers are trying to follow the blueprint, gsw, Houston, magic, etc..etc..

[MartyConlonJr]

We get to spend another 3 seasons paying off Duncan's ridiculous contract?

Oh boy!

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

There are plenty of shooters in the NBA as good or better than Duncan. Duncan was a near special shooter for a minute.

Exactly 1 minute.

I remember watching game by game as Duncan climbed the charts of 3 point accuracy and volume. It was truly verging on historic at one point.

At 22/01/2021, he was 333/756 for his career, shooting 44.05% from 3 in 27.36 mpg over 102 games. That is 3.26 3's per game, or 4.3 threes per 36 mins.

That would have placed him 0.04% off 2nd place all time in accuracy (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_pct_career.html), and first all time in rate per 36 mins (https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/fg3_per_mp_career.html).

The guys above him in accuracy, Steve Kerr and Hubert Davis, were putting up 1.6 and 1.7 3 pointers per 36 mins. He actually still comes in 2nd to Steph Curry in 3 pointers per 36 all time, even after cooling down.

I'd say he peaked on that day, but stayed fairly good rest of the season. Unfortunately, that was when he got paid. In fact, maybe he peaked after that video clip where he snuck up on some dude who was saying he was overrated and overpaid in a car park.

[Kobewade11]

I won't say no to him, don't get me wrong, but he's not LeBron, he's got flaws that can be exploited vs good teams. Still, far better than anything we have right now.

It does beg the question though, who is the ideal running mate for him?

Steph Curry

[eddieheatfan]

Watch on YouTube

Miami Heat Already Thinking Of Dumping Simone Fontecchio? | Trae Young Worth A Pat Riley Harpoon?

[SA37]

For my part I think that The robinson situation wasn't that bad ... Especially not as it seemed to be... it was All a miraĝe

The team hasn't done Any significant
Moves after getting rid of him

duncan wasn't as bad as People make him out to be and throughout the NBA he was regarded as one of the biggest 3 point threads... Although he was one dimensional

There are plenty of shooters in the NBA as good or better than Duncan. Duncan was a near special shooter for a minute.

Exactly 1 minute.

Duncan is a movement shooter which is insanely valuable. On this team, you have herro, now Powell, and sometimes wiggins. These 3 can get their 3 ball off of movement or self creation. The rest of the team is essentially catch and shoot.

The problem with Robinson was his contract and role. If he was paid less, he'd be valuable. At 20+? Not so much. 2nd was his role/roster construction. If he's your 6th or 7th man surrounded by 4 defenders and a creator? He's a weapon. Put him out there with no other creators and poor defenders? He's a liability. Imo, he will regain value in Detroit. They've got a creator and defenders around him. Duncan will produce.

Players like Robinson are a distraction. He has improved off the dribble, but he's still limited. He's a target for the other team and they attack him relentlessly. Players have gotten a lot better at shooting the 3, and you have guys with much more well-rounded games that can shoot on par with Robinson.

No functional, rational team makes any plans to "surround" a limited role player. If Robinson at least could score like Klay Thompson, then ok. But Robinson is not that kind of scorer, which is why he eventually lost his spot to Max Strus and Gabe Vincent in Miami.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

If we're strictly talking about this season, Herro had a better season than Bane, Beal, Lavine, McCollum. So he's better right now.

But the thing is, when considering whether a player is worth a contract, how can you do that without considering age? For example, its far more likely Herro keeps up his current production over the next 4-5 seasons than the guys lower than him because he's 25 and they're 30 or older. So he's worth more/more likely to get big money atm.

I think it's a coin toss with Lavine, but otherwise I agree.

Age matters to a degree, but older players tend to get a bad rap. In general, people like to run with fantasies about the improvement young players will make and jump to conclusions about when a player will decline. That's just the nature of things. In Herro's case, he'll turn 26 in January and, in general, players hit their ceiling around this age.

Herro has largely underperformed in the playoffs and is far from being an elite player. I see his impact somewhere in the Eddie Jones range. Miami paid a premium for Jones to pair him with Mourning (along with maxing out Brian Grant). I see parallels with Adebayo/Herro, except Miami doesn't have an Alonzo Mourning. Miami ended up with 2 very overpaid players.

In an ideal world, Miami would wait until Herro's deal expires before re-signing/extending him. I understand that would likely create a lot of tension in the real world, but I am hopeful this is something Miami and Herro will put off until next summer to see how Herro produces and how this team fits with (or without) the improvements from Miami's unproven guys (Mitchell, Ware, Jovic...etc)

That's basically a list of overpaid scoring guards who cant win anything as a high paying starter. Bane might be the exception because he can somewhat hold his own. We'll see what he does in Orlando.

And, for now, Herro belongs on that list, which is precisely why I said Miami should wait on extending Herro. His career playoff averages are: 14-4r-3a on 41-33-89. Miami has accomplished nothing with Herro as the primary ball-handler or even a significant contributor in the playoffs.

You can't put it all of Miami's shortcomings on Herro, but it isn't like he's had incredible personal output. Just the opposite, in fact.

[contract]

There are plenty of shooters in the NBA as good or better than Duncan. Duncan was a near special shooter for a minute.

Exactly 1 minute.

Duncan is a movement shooter which is insanely valuable. On this team, you have herro, now Powell, and sometimes wiggins. These 3 can get their 3 ball off of movement or self creation. The rest of the team is essentially catch and shoot.

The problem with Robinson was his contract and role. If he was paid less, he'd be valuable. At 20+? Not so much. 2nd was his role/roster construction. If he's your 6th or 7th man surrounded by 4 defenders and a creator? He's a weapon. Put him out there with no other creators and poor defenders? He's a liability. Imo, he will regain value in Detroit. They've got a creator and defenders around him. Duncan will produce.

Players like Robinson are a distraction. He has improved off the dribble, but he's still limited. He's a target for the other team and they attack him relentlessly. Players have gotten a lot better at shooting the 3, and you have guys with much more well-rounded games that can shoot on par with Robinson.

No functional, rational team makes any plans to "surround" a limited role player. If Robinson at least could score like Klay Thompson, then ok. But Robinson is not that kind of scorer, which is why he eventually lost his spot to Max Strus and Gabe Vincent in Miami.

I think that people forget that Duncan topped out at 13.5 ppg.

[SA37]

Spoiler:

Duncan is a movement shooter which is insanely valuable. On this team, you have herro, now Powell, and sometimes wiggins. These 3 can get their 3 ball off of movement or self creation. The rest of the team is essentially catch and shoot.

The problem with Robinson was his contract and role. If he was paid less, he'd be valuable. At 20+? Not so much. 2nd was his role/roster construction. If he's your 6th or 7th man surrounded by 4 defenders and a creator? He's a weapon. Put him out there with no other creators and poor defenders? He's a liability. Imo, he will regain value in Detroit. They've got a creator and defenders around him. Duncan will produce.

Players like Robinson are a distraction. He has improved off the dribble, but he's still limited. He's a target for the other team and they attack him relentlessly. Players have gotten a lot better at shooting the 3, and you have guys with much more well-rounded games that can shoot on par with Robinson.

No functional, rational team makes any plans to "surround" a limited role player. If Robinson at least could score like Klay Thompson, then ok. But Robinson is not that kind of scorer, which is why he eventually lost his spot to Max Strus and Gabe Vincent in Miami.

I think that people forget that Duncan topped out at 13.5 ppg.

We were living in the peak overvaluation of role players. Gobert, D Green, J Holiday...etc. Robinson -- and other shooters like him -- profited immensely from this overvaluation.

In his defense -- and partly in Herro's -- Miami has never been very good offensively. Has Miami ever had a top 15 offense under Spo that wasn't a product of having the Big 3?

It'll be interesting to see how Robinson does in Detroit.

[Vertical Limit]

Spoiler:

Players like Robinson are a distraction. He has improved off the dribble, but he's still limited. He's a target for the other team and they attack him relentlessly. Players have gotten a lot better at shooting the 3, and you have guys with much more well-rounded games that can shoot on par with Robinson.

No functional, rational team makes any plans to "surround" a limited role player. If Robinson at least could score like Klay Thompson, then ok. But Robinson is not that kind of scorer, which is why he eventually lost his spot to Max Strus and Gabe Vincent in Miami.

I think that people forget that Duncan topped out at 13.5 ppg.

We were living in the peak overvaluation of role players. Gobert, D Green, J Holiday...etc. Robinson -- and other shooters like him -- profited immensely from this overvaluation.

In his defense -- and partly in Herro's -- Miami has never been very good offensively. Has Miami ever had a top 15 offense under Spo that wasn't a product of having the Big 3?

It'll be interesting to see how Robinson does in Detroit.

Spoiler:

Players like Robinson are a distraction. He has improved off the dribble, but he's still limited. He's a target for the other team and they attack him relentlessly. Players have gotten a lot better at shooting the 3, and you have guys with much more well-rounded games that can shoot on par with Robinson.

No functional, rational team makes any plans to "surround" a limited role player. If Robinson at least could score like Klay Thompson, then ok. But Robinson is not that kind of scorer, which is why he eventually lost his spot to Max Strus and Gabe Vincent in Miami.

I think that people forget that Duncan topped out at 13.5 ppg.

We were living in the peak overvaluation of role players. Gobert, D Green, J Holiday...etc. Robinson -- and other shooters like him -- profited immensely from this overvaluation.

In his defense -- and partly in Herro's -- Miami has never been very good offensively. Has Miami ever had a top 15 offense under Spo that wasn't a product of having the Big 3?

It'll be interesting to see how Robinson does in Detroit.

No, but Spo has not been blessed with scoring talent on his rosters.. we have acquired talent with very limited resources.

If we are talking since the Big 3, these are the biggest names we have had on our roster

Dragic - probably the most complete player we have had offensively since the big 3, especially when you look back from 2015-2018 and yet he was never considered a “threat”
Whiteside - it was lightning in a bottle, and he faded away to irrelevance very fast..
Butler - our best offensive player we have had since the big3, great midrange offensive player, not a great shooter from distance
Bam - limited offensive arsenal, elite defense
Herro - limited offensive arsenal

Then spo has had to make chicken salad out of chicken **** with roleplayers like TJ, Dion Waiters, Caleb, Strus, Gabe Vincent, Ellington, Duncan, Tucker, Crowder, Solomon, Burks, Winslow, Richardson, etc…

Hell Whiteside, was on like 7 different teams in 3 years before we signed him to a 10 day.. he was on like 2 lebanese teams, 2 chinese teams and 3 different g league teams

Whiteside and all those roleplayers i listed were well on their way to getting a CDL license and driving a truck fulltime

We barely gave up anything for Butler.. that was luck..

The most expensive trade we have had since the big 3 was Dragic. And that was a decade ago where we traded 2 firsts.

We have not had a trade for a player like Dragic since. The way we are operating right now is unrecognizable. What we usually do is, we trade everything we can for the big fish. Now we try to get the big fish for free and no one is picking up the phone. They dont even respect us to entertain the call because we are unserious about what we offer.

Since Dragic, we have traded a first for Terry Rozier..

Thats the kind of talent we have given Spo since the Big 3.

[SoFlaKingReal]

Duncan was also a boneheaded player these last few years. So many turnovers, fouls, and mental mistakes. This was the result of asking him to do anything more than just catch and shoot.

[Vertical Limit]

Duncan was also a boneheaded player these last few years. So many turnovers, fouls, and mental mistakes. This was the result of asking him to do anything more than just catch and shoot

He didnt even do that correctly…

A catch and shoot 3 point shooter has their position and legs locked in and takes a high percentage open 3 or mildly contested 3.

he was trying to do some Kobe/Ray Allen type of catch and shooting, running around in circles, catching and fade jump shooting, which a lot of times led to long rebounds… he was not and is NOT that guy.. he should have been camping in position like Mike Miller.

Duncan was top 3 most expensive “DID NOT PLAY - COACH’S DECISION” in the 22-23 season because how bad his offense was for our transition defense. It lead to quick points the other **** way. Literally shot us out of victories.

[Daffy]

Guess we're on to the Trae Young watch now.