Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Sofia]

Imagine still complaining about muh super teams in 2025.

[MrPainfulTruth]

Lebron was in a no-win situation. He stays in Cleveland, in his first stint, he never wins championship. He goes to Miami he is ring chaser and his rings are devalued.

The typical straw man as if there wasnt a honorable third way - leave Cleveland but dont go and build a superteam with two other top tier superstars and hide in the east and fill up with great role players.

He could have done a dozen other things people would have accepted, he could have won titles - a few less maybe but a lot more respectable. He chose the easiest possible way while still demanding people call him GOAT. But...GOATs do not need to take the easiest way.

Dirk, Giannis, Kawhi, Joker won without the weak stuff. When all the media manipulation and hype is over, it will be commonly accepted those people are more relevant than LeBron in the big picture.

[TwitterFingers]

Stockton is right. LeBron’s championships are tainted.

[A_Fernz23]

The only Finals you can really hold against LeBron is 2011 and even then, there were so many variables to be considered that didn't just simply entail Bron playing bad. Mavs had more depth than Heat and played at a 62 win pace with Dirk, the Heat were legitimately trash outside their big three from a washed up Mike Bibby who only came in at the end of the season, Joel Anthony, Chalmers who wasn't as developed nor received as much play time to Miller who had both his wrists injured. That Heat team was heavily dependent on LeBron closing out games, he played 10 full second halves and five 45 minute games including 2 overtimes leading up to the Finals, that along with his weight gain would've contributed to fatigue, that's the biggest minute load of any wing in over 40 years, only AI, Shaq and Bron in 2007 played similar or more minutes during a full playoff run if I recall, he hasn't played the same kind of minutes since even in 2018 when he had a worse team. That's not to mention Spoelstra's coaching decisions throughout the 2011 Finals including repeatedly using a lineup that only had like 30 minutes of play time together in the regular season and stagnant offensive schemes.

[Cavsfansince84]

Go look at some of the teams ai tmac iverson pierce carter Kobe etc had in the early to mid 2000s. They’d be begging to have the talent LeBron was surrounded with in his first Cleveland run.

You mean after Kobe had played with prime/peak Shaq for 6 years and TMac was 25 when he left Orl to go play with Yao(same age LeBron was when he went to Miami). Even AI got to play with dpoy Dikembe and McKie who was 6moty. Kobe had 3 years of that to LeBron's first 7 and with 3 rings already in the bank and still requested a trade a couple of times.

[MrPainfulTruth]

The only Finals you can really hold against LeBron is 2011 and even then, there were so many variables to be considered that didn't just simply entail Bron playing bad. Mavs had more depth than Heat and played at a 62 win pace with Dirk, the Heat were legitimately trash outside their big three from a washed up Mike Bibby who only came in at the end of the season, Joel Anthony, Chalmers who wasn't as developed nor received as much play time to Miller who had both his wrists injured. That Heat team was heavily dependent on LeBron closing out games, he played 10 full second halves and five 45 minute games including 2 overtimes leading up to the Finals, that along with his weight gain would've contributed to fatigue, that's the biggest minute load of any wing in over 40 years, only AI, Shaq and Bron in 2007 played similar or more minutes during a full playoff run if I recall, he hasn't played the same kind of minutes since even in 2018 when he had a worse team. That's not to mention Spoelstra's coaching decisions throughout the 2011 Finals including repeatedly using a lineup that only had like 30 minutes of play time together in the regular season and stagnant offensive schemes.

Remarkable talent for comedy. This entire post made me laugh, thank you.

What you basically say is that Dirk was better than the combined talent of LeBron, Wade and Bosh. And id agree. The self declared GOAT mocked Dirk and then crumbled and disappeared.

[A_Fernz23]

The only Finals you can really hold against LeBron is 2011 and even then, there were so many variables to be considered that didn't just simply entail Bron playing bad. Mavs had more depth than Heat and played at a 62 win pace with Dirk, the Heat were legitimately trash outside their big three from a washed up Mike Bibby who only came in at the end of the season, Joel Anthony, Chalmers who wasn't as developed nor received as much play time to Miller who had both his wrists injured. That Heat team was heavily dependent on LeBron closing out games, he played 10 full second halves and five 45 minute games including 2 overtimes leading up to the Finals, that along with his weight gain would've contributed to fatigue, that's the biggest minute load of any wing in over 40 years, only AI, Shaq and Bron in 2007 played similar or more minutes during a full playoff run if I recall, he hasn't played the same kind of minutes since even in 2018 when he had a worse team. That's not to mention Spoelstra's coaching decisions throughout the 2011 Finals including repeatedly using a lineup that only had like 30 minutes of play time together in the regular season and stagnant offensive schemes.

Remarkable talent for comedy. This entire post made me laugh, thank you.

What you basically say is that Dirk was better than the combined talent of LeBron, Wade and Bosh. And id agree. The self declared GOAT mocked Dirk and then crumbled and disappeared.

Never said that, basketball's a team game and Bosh was literally a net negative in the 2011 Finals who played worse than Bron, watch the games and look beyond just ppg. The Mavs were literally a deeper team and had better synergy than the Heat whom hadn't figured out how to maximise their talents yet. LeBron choked, there's also other variables to consider in basketball and to dismiss them is just simply bad discourse. Actually engage with the points instead of talking trash. Even MJ never played the same level of minutes as LeBron in his playoff runs to the Finals despite the 2011 Heat being such an "unstoppable superteam", they were amazing in stretches but also extremely volatile and prone to falling apart which was solved in 2012

[zimpy27]

Might be the stupidest thing I read all year

[Maxthirty]

Might be the stupidest thing I read all year

Idk. Have you read some of the posts in this thread?

[picc]

They are not worth nothing, they are just worth less.

Beautifully said.

[levon]

Stockton would know how much titles mean

[og15]

Go look at some of the teams ai tmac iverson pierce carter Kobe etc had in the early to mid 2000s. They’d be begging to have the talent LeBron was surrounded with in his first Cleveland run.

Why is this supposed to be an argument against Lebron's decision? If there was a Celtics or Magic team like we had in the mid to late 2000s in the early 2000s, Jason Kidd and Iverson would not even have a finals appearance as the lead guy, so why is this arguing against Lebron's decision, you're arguing for the decision by saying this.

None of those guys had a true contending roster in those seasons, and most years were 1st round, at best 2nd round exits. AI got to the finals in a weak East where his team was no match, LeBron's 2007 Cavs were an equally poor roster relative to competition in the East as that Philly team.

Carter asked for trade, TMac asked for a trade. Kobe after Shaq threatened to leave if the roster didn't improve and that was what, like 3 seasons? Lebron gave the Cavs 7 seasons.

So you're arguing that Lebron should have hung around on 1st/2nd round teams and then asked for a trade?

No, I’m saying he went and repeatedly tried to form super teams in his prime with different franchises when the going got rough where he was. None of those guys did that to that degree. No one in history besides kd and harden.

Well, first of all LeBron's prime was like 3 times as long as 3 of those guys, so they didn't even have a chance to do it if they wanted to.

Second, regardless, take out Kobe who got to play on the franchise that gets all the players and championships and already had 3 championships, none of those guys won a championship or were ever on a contender.

So if you're argument is, well, look, these guys on poor or mediocre run franchises had worse rosters and accomplished nothing, so Lebron shouldn't have tried to form strong teams, it's an argument for, not against Lebron.

Kobe on the Lakers, in LA, the land of getting top players, already with 3 chips in the bag, and only 3 years of "suffering", I'm not even sure why he's being mentioned. Oh no, what a hard situation, lol

[Ice Trae]

Stockton is such a dumbass good lord

[picc]

Stockton would know how much titles mean

Would you estimate you know more, or less, about how much titles mean than John Stockton?

[cupcakesnake]

Stockton got to spend his entire career in a super stable sitatution, got to play his whole career with a player every bit as good as him or better, and one of the greatest coaches of all-time.

I hate players acting like they took the tough road, when really they got lucky. Guys who don't leave their teams, typically dont leave because the team provides them the competitive situation they desire (unless you're KG or Dame, but hey, they got paid!) The Jazz took care of Stockton, so why would Stockton have left?

Stockton and Malone never won a title, because Hakeem and MJ were better than them, or their teams were better. Even after those two top-10 all-time guys, Stockton's Jazz had to compete against Payton/Kemp Sonics, Drexler's Blazers, Robinson's Spurs, and a bunch of other solid WC teams.

I rooted hard against the Heatles, but it's hard to picture Lebron choosing to stay with the Cavs. That team had exhausted all their resources, and failed to put a semi-serious contender around an all-time great. Had Lebron stayed, he would have still had some deep playoff runs because the East wasn't super deep, but he would have had a KG-like career.

[Cavsfansince84]

The typical straw man as if there wasnt a honorable third way - leave Cleveland but dont go and build a superteam with two other top tier superstars and hide in the east and fill up with great role players.

He could have done a dozen other things people would have accepted, he could have won titles - a few less maybe but a lot more respectable. He chose the easiest possible way while still demanding people call him GOAT. But...GOATs do not need to take the easiest way.

Dirk, Giannis, Kawhi, Joker won without the weak stuff. When all the media manipulation and hype is over, it will be commonly accepted those people are more relevant than LeBron in the big picture.

This post was written like we are still in the year 2012 by people who also thought LeBron's impact would steeply decline after age 30. Here we are in 2025 with LeBron the all time leader in points in both the rs & ps(by huge margins), led 3 different franchises to titles and people are making posts like this one. I mean.. come on. At some point you gotta come back to reality even if you are the biggest LeBron hater in the world. 4 mvps, 4 fmvps, 40k+ pts, 13x all nba 1st team. That speaks for itself.

[ImSlower]

Lebron was in a no-win situation. He stays in Cleveland, in his first stint, he never wins a championship. He goes to Miami he is a ring chaser and his rings are devalued.

Never wins a championship his entire career? I bag on LeBron's choices often and I loathe What If / different era player comps, but I'm skeptical of that hypothetical.

[og15]

Lots of whining from Stockton. Not worth listening to at all.

It's also easy for Stockton to say

"let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener?"

...when he had Malone his whole career, with a HOF coach in a stable system and situation, and it was just about building around them, not about, "can we even get another proper star here".

That statement doesn't apply to Lebron leaving Cleveland. You can apply it to leaving Miami, but there was an aspect of the burden, whatever you want to call it of going back to Cleveland and getting a championship there.

The LA transition was less about that and more about, "I did my duty in Cleveland, now I go where I want". Of course you go to LA, the place where players want to go, and also to a franchise that has clout, and there's always a possibility of greener pastures.

[HMFFL]

Lebron has been THE GUY on all of his teams. They would never win without him. I don't see the problem.

Is teaming up with best friend Dwayne Wade really that big of a deal? How he went about it rubbed many people the wrong way because they didn't want Lebron to win.

It's the Warriors and Dray's fault he beat them in 2016. They helped Brons legacy.

In his 30's you can blame the Warriors in 15-16 and all the other teams not being as prepared as the Lakers in the bubble during the 19-20 season.

[Tor_Raps]

I'd agree that they have less value, not no value. Lebron stans forget the outrage of him chickening out by forming a super team during the start of his prime.

It was just unheard of at that time. He ushered in a era where everyone became super buddy buddy because of it.