Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[zimpy27]

Might be the stupidest thing I read all year

Idk. Have you read some of the posts in this thread?

I try not to comment on them negatively, it ain't easy

[D.Brasco]

They are not worth nothing, they are just worth less.

His 2016 title alone should count for double.

[seren]

I say John Stockton titles don’t have value. Oh wait. Nevermind

[tsherkin]

It's also easy for Stockton to say

"let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener?"

...when he had Malone his whole career, with a HOF coach in a stable system and situation, and it was just about building around them, not about, "can we even get another proper star here".

100%. I think it's an element too often not given enough credence in criticism of Lebron, where people struggle to separate The Decision from his actual decision. And then further, from their hero worship of (insert other player here).

[Airmiess]

The 16' was decent enough, but Kyrie doesn't get enough credit.

[levon]

Stockton would know how much titles mean

Would you estimate you know more, or less, about how much titles mean than John Stockton?

I'm not making a claim about the value of LeBron's titles. Evidently you are, so you tell me.

[Snakebites]

Lebron also had to go up against better teams in the finals too. The sword cuts both ways.

You can say you don’t “like” the way LeBron teams were built, but I don’t think those things really have a clearly defined place when discussing the merit of his career.

[levon]

Lebron has been THE GUY on all of his teams. They would never win without him. I don't see the problem.

Is teaming up with best friend Dwayne Wade really that big of a deal? How he went about it rubbed many people the wrong way because they didn't want Lebron to win.

It's the Warriors and Dray's fault he beat them in 2016. They helped Brons legacy.

In his 30's you can blame the Warriors in 15-16 and all the other teams not being as prepared as the Lakers in the bubble during the 19-20 season.

Everyone remembers 2012 and 2013 as if LeBron had 2008 Wade. Honestly by 2012 he wasn't the same guy. In the 2013 playoffs he put up 16 5 5 on 50% TS (rounding up). Great player, but that wasn't a Curry-Durant situation at all.

It's like saying Shaq's 2001 and 2002 titles don't have value.

In fact, let's throw in the 2000 playoffs where Kobe averagde 19 4 4 on 52% TS adjusted for Wade's minutes.

[A_Fernz23]

Lebron has been THE GUY on all of his teams. They would never win without him. I don't see the problem.

Is teaming up with best friend Dwayne Wade really that big of a deal? How he went about it rubbed many people the wrong way because they didn't want Lebron to win.

It's the Warriors and Dray's fault he beat them in 2016. They helped Brons legacy.

In his 30's you can blame the Warriors in 15-16 and all the other teams not being as prepared as the Lakers in the bubble during the 19-20 season.

Everyone remembers 2012 and 2013 as if LeBron had 2008 Wade. Honestly by 2012 he wasn't the same guy. In the 2013 playoffs he put up 16 5 5 on 50% TS (rounding up). Great player, but that wasn't a Curry-Durant situation at all.

It's like saying Shaq's 2001 and 2002 titles don't have value.

Wade was great but not on the same level, I'd still consider him top 10 in 2012, in 13 he was having his knee drained and was an offensive liability in multiple playoff games. He almost lost the Heat game 6 by dominating the ball on multiple possessions in the closing minutes

[EmpireFalls]

I, for one, cannot think of a player who won 4 titles that meant “more” than his did. No one with 4 titles or less contributed more to their titles than he did to his, pretty simple.

Of course those with more titles can say differently, but he’s by far the greatest player and winner of the 4 title and below crowd.

[A_Fernz23]

Funny how the renowned playoff dropper and loser alongside Malone is talking about rings when 2/4 of his rings came as an underdog along with only being favoured 3 of 10 Finals so if we want to be technical, he "overachieved", even then, that 2013 Spurs team was incredibly neck and neck with the Heat along with Wade not being 100%, sansterre has a good post on them pertaining to how significantly they load managed and how their regular season record doesn't fully reflect how great they actually were.

[HMFFL]

Lebron has been THE GUY on all of his teams. They would never win without him. I don't see the problem.

Is teaming up with best friend Dwayne Wade really that big of a deal? How he went about it rubbed many people the wrong way because they didn't want Lebron to win.

It's the Warriors and Dray's fault he beat them in 2016. They helped Brons legacy.

In his 30's you can blame the Warriors in 15-16 and all the other teams not being as prepared as the Lakers in the bubble during the 19-20 season.

Everyone remembers 2012 and 2013 as if LeBron had 2008 Wade. Honestly by 2012 he wasn't the same guy. In the 2013 playoffs he put up 16 5 5 on 50% TS (rounding up). Great player, but that wasn't a Curry-Durant situation at all.

It's like saying Shaq's 2001 and 2002 titles don't have value.

In fact, let's throw in the 2000 playoffs where Kobe averagde 19 4 4 on 52% TS adjusted for Wade's minutes.

Wade was just fine during the back to back title runs. He was a top 10 MVP candidate and he made the All NBA team both years.

I will acknowledge there was a slight decline and that's one reason why Lebron left. It was the right decision to go back to Cleveland. It was huge for his legacy and beating the Warriors after being down 1-3 in the series.

[NyKnicks1714]

You live in a rural area with no other options and you have a daughter with a severe autoimmune disorder. Who would you rather have as her pediatrician: Malone or Stockton?

[JRoy]

King of the front runners

[A_Fernz23]

You live in a rural area with no other options and you have a daughter with a severe autoimmune disorder. Who would you rather have as her pediatrician: Malone or Stockton?

No.

[boogiezen]

Agree or disagree? They do feel like mercenary chips: https://sports.yahoo.com/article/top-75-nba-player-throws-175054096.html

The only time I agree with Stockton.

[meekrab]

You live in a rural area with no other options and you have a daughter with a severe autoimmune disorder. Who would you rather have as her pediatrician: Malone or Stockton?

Why am I making all these terrible life choices?

[bkkrh]

Go look at some of the teams ai tmac iverson pierce carter Kobe etc had in the early to mid 2000s. They’d be begging to have the talent LeBron was surrounded with in his first Cleveland run.

Iverson: Stackhouse, Derrick Coleman, Jim Jackson, Theo Ratliff, Aaron McKie, Joe Smith, Tim Thomas, Larry Hughes, Toni Kukoč, Dikembe Mutombo, Keith Van Horn, Glenn Robinson, Samuel Dalembert, Kyle Korver, Chris Webber, Corliss Williamson, Andre Iguodala

TMac: Marcus Camby, Damon Stoudamire, Doug Christie, Vince Carter, Antonio Davis, Darrell Armstrong, Grant Hill, Mike Miller, Juwan Howard

Pierce: Antoine Walker, Ron Mercer, Kenny Anderson, Ricky Davis, Gary Payton, Al Jefferson, Wally Szczerbiak, Rajon Rondo, Kevin Garnett, Ray Allen

Carter: TMac, Marcus Camby, Damon Stoudamire, Doug Christie, Antonio Davis, Jalen Rose, Chris Bosh, Richard Jefferson, Jason Kidd

Kobe: Shaquille O'Neal, Eddie Jones, Nick Van Exel, Robert Horry, Glen Rice, Isaiah Rider, Gary Payton, Karl Malone, Lamar Odom, Caron Butler, Andrew Bynum, Pau Gasol, Trevor Ariza, Ron Artest

In what world did those players have less help than Lebron? All of them had way more talented rosters at one point, especially when they came into the league. That they might have been a few years on a rebuild team or had some bad luck doesn´t change the fact that all of them played with other star players, while Lebron´s best team mates were players like Big Z, Mo Williams and Larry Hughes.

AI had tons of talented and accomplished team mates during his stint in Philly. Normally never long, since pretty much nobody seemed to work out next to him, which makes it seem more like he was the problem.

It´s funny that you mention McGrady, a player who did exactly the same than Lebron. He was on a super talented team already and decided to become a free agent to form a super team in Orlando. It´s actually funny how nobody cares about it, when he literally did the exact same thing than Lebron, just that it didn´t work out for him, since Duncan changed his mind and Grant Hill had injury issues.

Yep, Paul Pierce had exactly one season of a real rebuild and was considering leaving Boston based on that:

"People don't know, I was almost out of Boston. I was having meetings with the ownership, like, this ain't working -- this is the year before we got KG, the year Kevin Durant was in college. We lost 18 in a row so I'm like, "we weak." You know, I'm in my prime.

Straight up -- we weak. I'm in my prime, we losing, we not getting to the playoffs, I was like "y'all should trade me, draft Kevin Durant, tank the year, and build on out."

"I was really trying to get to Dallas, people don't even know, I was trying to get to Dallas. Really. Cause they got upset and I was like I would have been the t to help them get over the top. That was a good reason for me to be like -- I can help that team."

So yeah, he "just wanted to join a team that won 67 games that season and made it to the finals the previous season, but hey luckily the Celtics did build a super team anyhow.

Vince is also a great example, since he forced the Raptors to trade him, then magically became a good player again as soon as he was traded to New Jersey.

But Kobe is definitely the best example, the guy who declined to play for the team that draft him and wound up on a contender instead. It is really humble of him to accept 2-3 seasons of being on a mediocre team after winning 3 titles with the most loaded teams of the 2000s. Or it would be, if he didn´t consider leaving in free agency in 2004 and publicly demanding a trade in 2007.

[bonita_the_frog]

Chris "Mad Dog" Russo and John "Mailroom" Stockton are the 2 coolest men in NBA history, i love every word of what they say and enjoy hearing their voices too. Totally agree with Mailroom on this subject!

[mastermixer]

I hate LeBron as much as the next guy but he’s had an all-time career.

Give the man his flowers