RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3)

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Who's the GOAT

Bill Russell
6
4%
Lebron James
32
21%
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
5
3%
Michael Jordan
101
66%
Wilt Chamberlain
2
1%
Tim Duncan
3
2%
Hakeem Olajuwon
0
No votes
Jerry West
0
No votes
Shaquille O'Neal
0
No votes
Other
4
3%
 
Total votes: 153

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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#441 » by Jamaaliver » Thu Aug 7, 2025 7:54 pm

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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#442 » by Iwasawitness » Fri Aug 8, 2025 12:21 am

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In an effort to get this thread back on the right track, can we come up with better arguments than this? I mean, one of the categories is "titles won outside of Disney". There's no attempts at legitimacy or anything of the sort with this argument. Hell, one of the categories aren't even correct.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#443 » by michaelm » Fri Aug 8, 2025 12:38 am

The Explorer wrote:
K N U C K L E S wrote:Wilt and Russell played against mostly white guys who were at least 6 inches shorter than them. That's the only reason they put up video game stats. If they played today, they'd still be among the best in the game, but wouldn't put up video game numbers.

Conversely, if you put todays best players in their era, they would put up video game stats.


That's neither here nor there, though. There's so much unknown in hypotheticals that I believe it's pointless to draw meaningful conclusions from them in the goat discourse. Players did what they could given what they had and once you start the time travel debate, the comparisons become unfair both going forward and backward. I tend to compare on what players did in their own eras.

Exactly. It is not as though the rosters which were constructed around them or the game plans employed by the teams of the respective players was independent of said players anyway.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#444 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 8, 2025 12:55 am

Iwasawitness wrote:In an effort to get this thread back on the right track, can we come up with better arguments than this?



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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#445 » by Iwasawitness » Fri Aug 8, 2025 3:45 am

Jamaaliver wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:In an effort to get this thread back on the right track, can we come up with better arguments than this?



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Again, you're going to need to come up with better arguments than this.

A good amount of those 11 times the person here is counting are situations where LeBron barely played in the fourth and/or his team was being blown out. We have plenty of instances of LeBron showing he can in fact be a tremendous fourth quarter performer. And he's one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer of all time so we know he's capable of coming up big when it counts most.

We don't have to resort to using faulty arguments. A couple of posters who did nothing but that are now gone from the thread for a bit. All I or anyone else asks for is a little bit of effort. It's not much to ask for.
LakerLegend wrote:LeBron was literally more athletic at 35 than he was at 20
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#446 » by Iwasawitness » Fri Aug 8, 2025 3:48 am

michaelm wrote:
The Explorer wrote:
K N U C K L E S wrote:Wilt and Russell played against mostly white guys who were at least 6 inches shorter than them. That's the only reason they put up video game stats. If they played today, they'd still be among the best in the game, but wouldn't put up video game numbers.

Conversely, if you put todays best players in their era, they would put up video game stats.


That's neither here nor there, though. There's so much unknown in hypotheticals that I believe it's pointless to draw meaningful conclusions from them in the goat discourse. Players did what they could given what they had and once you start the time travel debate, the comparisons become unfair both going forward and backward. I tend to compare on what players did in their own eras.

Exactly. It is not as though the rosters which were constructed around them or the game plans employed by the teams of the respective players was independent of said players anyway.


Doesn't mean we can't have fun at least speculating.

Like, how would Wilt be able to use his insane physical gifts to his advantage in today's league? How would he be able to implement his great skillset to adjust to how the game is played now? What I've always been curious about as well is how would he be able to defend at the perimeter like a lot of centers are forced to do? He had tremendous footwork and was quick for a center. I can't help but imagine he'd be able to thrive in todays game no problem.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#447 » by 70sFan » Fri Aug 8, 2025 8:50 am

K N U C K L E S wrote:Wilt and Russell played against mostly white guys who were at least 6 inches shorter than them. That's the only reason they put up video game stats. If they played today, they'd still be among the best in the game, but wouldn't put up video game numbers.

Conversely, if you put todays best players in their era, they would put up video game stats.

1. The league was half black by 1965, which wasn't even half of Wilt's career.

2. Of course the average player was 6 inches shorter than Wilt... that would also be the case today. If you mean the average center, then it's bullsh*t, because centers in the 1960s were the same height as today.

3. They put up video game stats because of insane pace, not because of lack of competition.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#448 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 8, 2025 3:02 pm

These distinctions feel...fairish.

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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#449 » by Iwasawitness » Fri Aug 8, 2025 3:14 pm

Jamaaliver wrote:These distinctions feel...fairish.

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Kobe is definitely not the greatest scorer of all time.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#450 » by Jamaaliver » Fri Aug 8, 2025 3:30 pm

Iwasawitness wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:These distinctions feel...fairish.

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Kobe is definitely not the greatest scorer of all time.


That would be the ish.

Though I acknowledge he's likely in the conversation.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#451 » by Jamaaliver » Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:52 am

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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#452 » by Rust_Cohle » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:28 am

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Really is astonishing how piss poor the east was compared to the west for so so long.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#453 » by Rust_Cohle » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:31 am

Iwasawitness wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:In an effort to get this thread back on the right track, can we come up with better arguments than this?



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Again, you're going to need to come up with better arguments than this.

A good amount of those 11 times the person here is counting are situations where LeBron barely played in the fourth and/or his team was being blown out. We have plenty of instances of LeBron showing he can in fact be a tremendous fourth quarter performer. And he's one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer of all time so we know he's capable of coming up big when it counts most.

We don't have to resort to using faulty arguments. A couple of posters who did nothing but that are now gone from the thread for a bit. All I or anyone else asks for is a little bit of effort. It's not much to ask for.


And even when they do provide stays and charts IWasastatdenier just dismisses them and uses his memory as the end all be all and his “word” :crazy:
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#454 » by Iwasawitness » Sun Aug 10, 2025 1:03 pm

Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Jamaaliver wrote:

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Again, you're going to need to come up with better arguments than this.

A good amount of those 11 times the person here is counting are situations where LeBron barely played in the fourth and/or his team was being blown out. We have plenty of instances of LeBron showing he can in fact be a tremendous fourth quarter performer. And he's one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer of all time so we know he's capable of coming up big when it counts most.

We don't have to resort to using faulty arguments. A couple of posters who did nothing but that are now gone from the thread for a bit. All I or anyone else asks for is a little bit of effort. It's not much to ask for.


And even when they do provide stays and charts IWasastatdenier just dismisses them and uses his memory as the end all be all and his “word” :crazy:


Well I'll tell you what, how about you get basic stats correct (like what Irving averaged in the 2016 finals), and then you can have enough credibility to call someone out for (correctly) stating why faulty stats lacking context are faulty stats lacking context. Until then, leave this kind of thing to people who know better.

Dial it back please. We are allowed to attack the content of each other's posts, but don't get personal and attack/bait the poster himself. -b
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#455 » by Rust_Cohle » Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:14 pm

Iwasawitness wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Again, you're going to need to come up with better arguments than this.

A good amount of those 11 times the person here is counting are situations where LeBron barely played in the fourth and/or his team was being blown out. We have plenty of instances of LeBron showing he can in fact be a tremendous fourth quarter performer. And he's one of, if not the greatest elimination game performer of all time so we know he's capable of coming up big when it counts most.

We don't have to resort to using faulty arguments. A couple of posters who did nothing but that are now gone from the thread for a bit. All I or anyone else asks for is a little bit of effort. It's not much to ask for.


And even when they do provide stays and charts IWasastatdenier just dismisses them and uses his memory as the end all be all and his “word” :crazy:


Well I'll tell you what, how about you get basic stats correct (like what Irving averaged in the 2016 finals), and then you can have enough credibility to call someone out for (correctly) stating why faulty stats lacking context are faulty stats lacking context. Until then, leave this kind of thing to people who know better.


Nah, you just going by memory is even sillier. You were wrong and couldn’t own up to it. And then to have the most asinine remark of “it doesn’t count because the defender is too short” is beyond ridiculous.

Let’s leave it to people who actually put in effort and instead of talking out their ass with what they think they remember from 8 years ago.

Personal attacks are still not allowed. I'm sure you noticed all the folks who got banned in this thread for the same types of insults, and here you are picking it right back up. Please debate the post without insulting the poster. -b
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#456 » by Iwasawitness » Sun Aug 10, 2025 2:31 pm

Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
And even when they do provide stays and charts IWasastatdenier just dismisses them and uses his memory as the end all be all and his “word” :crazy:


Well I'll tell you what, how about you get basic stats correct (like what Irving averaged in the 2016 finals), and then you can have enough credibility to call someone out for (correctly) stating why faulty stats lacking context are faulty stats lacking context. Until then, leave this kind of thing to people who know better.


Nah, you just going by memory is even sillier. You were wrong and couldn’t own up to it. And then to have the most asinine remark of “it doesn’t count because the defender is too short” is beyond ridiculous.

Let’s leave it to people who actually put in effort and instead of talking out their ass with what they think they remember from 8 years ago.


Well first off, no I wasn't wrong. Unlike you I didn't go off faulty stats and highlight videos (which I can't stress enough how stupid that is). I never go off memory, I actually take time to research these things and see if they have any legitimate credibility. Yours didn't. You also need to learn what being tightly guarded means.Second and more importantly though, you of all people have no room to talk after getting multiple things wrong in a single post about something from nine years ago that, by the way, you've continued to ignore being called out on multiple times now because you, like you're claiming I do, can't own up to being wrong about something.

Please, quit wasting my and everyone else's time, and take your pettiness to another thread. You lost an argument, big deal. Get over it.

Last time I'm wasting my energy reading your posts. I have better things to do.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#457 » by Rust_Cohle » Sun Aug 10, 2025 3:10 pm

Iwasawitness wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Well I'll tell you what, how about you get basic stats correct (like what Irving averaged in the 2016 finals), and then you can have enough credibility to call someone out for (correctly) stating why faulty stats lacking context are faulty stats lacking context. Until then, leave this kind of thing to people who know better.


Nah, you just going by memory is even sillier. You were wrong and couldn’t own up to it. And then to have the most asinine remark of “it doesn’t count because the defender is too short” is beyond ridiculous.

Let’s leave it to people who actually put in effort and instead of talking out their ass with what they think they remember from 8 years ago.


Well first off, no I wasn't wrong. Unlike you I didn't go off faulty stats and highlight videos (which I can't stress enough how stupid that is). I never go off memory, I actually take time to research these things and see if they have any legitimate credibility. Yours didn't. You also need to learn what being tightly guarded means.Second and more importantly though, you of all people have no room to talk after getting multiple things wrong in a single post about something from nine years ago that, by the way, you've continued to ignore being called out on multiple times now because you, like you're claiming I do, can't own up to being wrong about something.

Please, quit wasting my and everyone else's time, and take your pettiness to another thread. You lost an argument, big deal. Get over it.

Last time I'm wasting my energy reading your posts. I have better things to do.


No, you lost the argument with zero stats to back up anything you said. And when I said highlights, it was of Duran't scoring, not of the whole finals. You were completely wrong and got exposed and can't have the deceny to just own up to it and then backtrack with some moronic "it doesn't count if a shorter defender was on Durant!" which was the most asinine thing I have ever read on this forum and I'm glad other posters in that thread rightfully called you out for such a brain dead take.

And I ALWAYS acknowledge when I am wrong, you corrected me before when I pulled data from ChatGPT and I gladly acknowledged that it wouldn't be best to using chatbots moving forward. I recall it being a very civil convo unlike now where it must be that time of the month for you.

I even pulled all data from nba.com this time, but no, we must refer to your biased memory of what happened instead of how it actually played out. It's sad to see because you were one of the more reasonable lebron fanboys but clearly I had you mistaken for someone else.

In life, it is okay to be wrong man, it's just a forum, but your ego just can't let you see the forest from the trees. When you start to improve your emotional IQ you'll see how much you can learn from others instead of having the blinders on your whole life.

Here's some more stats from Durant and the 2017 finals for you to throw a hissy fit about:

https://nesn.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-has-in-fact-worn-out-lebron-james-and-the-stats-prove-it/
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#458 » by michaelm » Sun Aug 10, 2025 4:46 pm

Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
Nah, you just going by memory is even sillier. You were wrong and couldn’t own up to it. And then to have the most asinine remark of “it doesn’t count because the defender is too short” is beyond ridiculous.

Let’s leave it to people who actually put in effort and instead of talking out their ass with what they think they remember from 8 years ago.


Well first off, no I wasn't wrong. Unlike you I didn't go off faulty stats and highlight videos (which I can't stress enough how stupid that is). I never go off memory, I actually take time to research these things and see if they have any legitimate credibility. Yours didn't. You also need to learn what being tightly guarded means.Second and more importantly though, you of all people have no room to talk after getting multiple things wrong in a single post about something from nine years ago that, by the way, you've continued to ignore being called out on multiple times now because you, like you're claiming I do, can't own up to being wrong about something.

Please, quit wasting my and everyone else's time, and take your pettiness to another thread. You lost an argument, big deal. Get over it.

Last time I'm wasting my energy reading your posts. I have better things to do.


No, you lost the argument with zero stats to back up anything you said. And when I said highlights, it was of Duran't scoring, not of the whole finals. You were completely wrong and got exposed and can't have the deceny to just own up to it and then backtrack with some moronic "it doesn't count if a shorter defender was on Durant!" which was the most asinine thing I have ever read on this forum and I'm glad other posters in that thread rightfully called you out for such a brain dead take.

And I ALWAYS acknowledge when I am wrong, you corrected me before when I pulled data from ChatGPT and I gladly acknowledged that it wouldn't be best to using chatbots moving forward. I recall it being a very civil convo unlike now where it must be that time of the month for you.

I even pulled all data from nba.com this time, but no, we must refer to your biased memory of what happened instead of how it actually played out. It's sad to see because you were one of the more reasonable lebron fanboys but clearly I had you mistaken for someone else.

In life, it is okay to be wrong man, it's just a forum, but your ego just can't let you see the forest from the trees. When you start to improve your emotional IQ you'll see how much you can learn from others instead of having the blinders on your whole life.

Here's some more stats from Durant and the 2017 finals for you to throw a hissy fit about:

https://nesn.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-has-in-fact-worn-out-lebron-james-and-the-stats-prove-it/

You did say Kyrie averaged 30 points when he “only” averaged 27.

I am a huge fan of KD’s but an even bigger Curry fan and could not find fault with your argument about the 2017 finals, how on earth can any issue be taken with how KD performed, his numbers were totally ridiculous any way you want to slice it. It is a matter of opinion how much was down to Curry, but they were a totally unstoppable tandem, and why shouldn’t they have been ?.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#459 » by Rust_Cohle » Sun Aug 10, 2025 4:50 pm

michaelm wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
Iwasawitness wrote:
Well first off, no I wasn't wrong. Unlike you I didn't go off faulty stats and highlight videos (which I can't stress enough how stupid that is). I never go off memory, I actually take time to research these things and see if they have any legitimate credibility. Yours didn't. You also need to learn what being tightly guarded means.Second and more importantly though, you of all people have no room to talk after getting multiple things wrong in a single post about something from nine years ago that, by the way, you've continued to ignore being called out on multiple times now because you, like you're claiming I do, can't own up to being wrong about something.

Please, quit wasting my and everyone else's time, and take your pettiness to another thread. You lost an argument, big deal. Get over it.

Last time I'm wasting my energy reading your posts. I have better things to do.


No, you lost the argument with zero stats to back up anything you said. And when I said highlights, it was of Duran't scoring, not of the whole finals. You were completely wrong and got exposed and can't have the deceny to just own up to it and then backtrack with some moronic "it doesn't count if a shorter defender was on Durant!" which was the most asinine thing I have ever read on this forum and I'm glad other posters in that thread rightfully called you out for such a brain dead take.

And I ALWAYS acknowledge when I am wrong, you corrected me before when I pulled data from ChatGPT and I gladly acknowledged that it wouldn't be best to using chatbots moving forward. I recall it being a very civil convo unlike now where it must be that time of the month for you.

I even pulled all data from nba.com this time, but no, we must refer to your biased memory of what happened instead of how it actually played out. It's sad to see because you were one of the more reasonable lebron fanboys but clearly I had you mistaken for someone else.

In life, it is okay to be wrong man, it's just a forum, but your ego just can't let you see the forest from the trees. When you start to improve your emotional IQ you'll see how much you can learn from others instead of having the blinders on your whole life.

Here's some more stats from Durant and the 2017 finals for you to throw a hissy fit about:

https://nesn.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-has-in-fact-worn-out-lebron-james-and-the-stats-prove-it/

You did say Kyrie averaged 30 points when he “only” averaged 27.

I am a huge fan of KD’s but an even bigger Curry fan and could not find fault with your argument about the 2017 finals, how on earth can any issue be taken with how KD performed, his numbers were totally ridiculous any way you want to slice it. It is a matter of opinion how much down tomCurry, but they were a totally unstoppable tandem, and why shouldn’t they have been ?.


Kyrie averaged 29.4 points, one of the highest scoring second options in an nba finals of the last ten years. I’m talking finals scoring 2017, not the whole season.


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kyrie-irving-finals-stats-2017


And yes, bizarre for others say I don’t do research when I provided multiple sources charts/stats etc..

Durant was always going to be tightly guarded, he’s KD for a reason. Even rewatching just his scoring from that finals while he had some open shots, he was absolutely accounted for and guarded tightly much of the time. Curry was being chased around screens but Durant if anything was the “easier” one to keep up with since he doesn’t run around nearly as much as curry which may play into how he had less open shots than curry.
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Re: RGM GOAT Debate Thread (Part 3) 

Post#460 » by michaelm » Sun Aug 10, 2025 5:18 pm

Rust_Cohle wrote:
michaelm wrote:
Rust_Cohle wrote:
No, you lost the argument with zero stats to back up anything you said. And when I said highlights, it was of Duran't scoring, not of the whole finals. You were completely wrong and got exposed and can't have the deceny to just own up to it and then backtrack with some moronic "it doesn't count if a shorter defender was on Durant!" which was the most asinine thing I have ever read on this forum and I'm glad other posters in that thread rightfully called you out for such a brain dead take.

And I ALWAYS acknowledge when I am wrong, you corrected me before when I pulled data from ChatGPT and I gladly acknowledged that it wouldn't be best to using chatbots moving forward. I recall it being a very civil convo unlike now where it must be that time of the month for you.

I even pulled all data from nba.com this time, but no, we must refer to your biased memory of what happened instead of how it actually played out. It's sad to see because you were one of the more reasonable lebron fanboys but clearly I had you mistaken for someone else.

In life, it is okay to be wrong man, it's just a forum, but your ego just can't let you see the forest from the trees. When you start to improve your emotional IQ you'll see how much you can learn from others instead of having the blinders on your whole life.

Here's some more stats from Durant and the 2017 finals for you to throw a hissy fit about:

https://nesn.com/2017/06/kevin-durant-has-in-fact-worn-out-lebron-james-and-the-stats-prove-it/

You did say Kyrie averaged 30 points when he “only” averaged 27.

I am a huge fan of KD’s but an even bigger Curry fan and could not find fault with your argument about the 2017 finals, how on earth can any issue be taken with how KD performed, his numbers were totally ridiculous any way you want to slice it. It is a matter of opinion how much down tomCurry, but they were a totally unstoppable tandem, and why shouldn’t they have been ?.


Kyrie averaged 29.4 points, one of the highest scoring second options in an nba finals of the last ten years. I’m talking finals scoring 2017, not the whole season.


https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/kyrie-irving-finals-stats-2017


And yes, bizarre for others say I don’t do research when I provided multiple sources charts/stats etc..

Durant was always going to be tightly guarded, he’s KD for a reason. Even rewatching just his scoring from that finals while he had some open shots, he was absolutely accounted for and guarded tightly much of the time. Curry was being chased around screens but Durant if anything was the “easier” one to keep up with since he doesn’t run around nearly as much as curry which may play into how he had less open shots than curry.

I may have made the same mistake as him, I thought you were talking about the 2016 finals in which he averaged 27 points. Like 29.4, 27 isn’t far off 30 though. If we are talking lack of coring support from starting players Harrison Barnes averaging 9.3 points in the 2016 finals despite being allowed many open shots might have had some influence on the outcome of the 2016 finals in addition to LeBron and Kyrie playing great in the deciding games.

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