Bird or Garnett?

[70sFan]

re: Bird in today's NBA. Bird vs. Jokic would be another interesting one, and could answer the question...interesting if for no other reason than because I suspect people's all-time ranking and their "head-to-head" opinion have a good chance of clashing

I'm pretty sure Jokic would take that one, to be honest.

You might want to reexamine your opinion. Bird in a league in which more than half of the top 20 scorers were SFs dominated to the point that he needed challenges like only shooting left-handed to stave off boredom because his peers were so inferior.

Bird definitely talked a lot of smack, but it's worth remembering how often he failed and struggled and what-not. It helps offset the sort of hyperbole in comments like this. He ran his mouth because they were good mind games, he knew how to manipulate his opponent and he was also an exceptional player, to be sure.

LBJ and Durant needed to team up with multiple all-stars to compete, but Bird turned journey men and washed-up players and carried them into all-star games and eventually the HoF.

Bird, who won all of his titles with Parish, McHale and DJ. Parish, who was a 9-time All-Star who made a couple of All-NBA Teams in the 80s, including as late as 89. DJ, who was a 5-time All-Star who made 9 All-Defensive Teams (6 1st Teams) and was twice on the All-NBA Team (one 1st team), and was an NBA champion before ever coming to Boston. DJ was Finals MVP for the 79 title Sonics, and was an All-Star and All-D 1st Teamer that year, then two years later was All-NBA 1st team before he was anywhere near the Celtics. And McHale, who was a 6-time All-D guy, 7-time All-Star, 2-time 6MOY, led the league in FG% twice, finished 4th in the MVP race in 87, and made an All-NBA 1st Team.

And don't forget Danny Ainge, who also snuck in an AS appearance with Boston in 88.

And you want to talk about the talent Lebron had around him?

Do me a favor.

Imagine an NBA that had 20 SFs that were as good or better than Tatum and he was the best player in the world doing things nobody had ever seen.

That... isn't anything like what happened with Bird in the 80s. That's incredible hyperbole.

Bird had none of Parish, McHale, and DJ in 1980 when they won 61 games and had an elite SRS. It feels disingenuous to say 'he never won a title without those 3', when you'd likely take the 1980 Celtics over the title winners in 79, 78, 77, etc. There was also no DJ in 81 when they were champs, and Parish and McHale played 28mpg and 17mpg that playoffs.

1980 Celtics would have very little chance against 1977 Blazers and I doubt they'd beat the Sonics either.

[Warspite]

re: Bird in today's NBA. Bird vs. Jokic would be another interesting one, and could answer the question...interesting if for no other reason than because I suspect people's all-time ranking and their "head-to-head" opinion have a good chance of clashing

I'm pretty sure Jokic would take that one, to be honest.

You might want to reexamine your opinion. Bird in a league in which more than half of the top 20 scorers were SFs dominated to the point that he needed challenges like only shooting left-handed to stave off boredom because his peers were so inferior.

Bird definitely talked a lot of smack, but it's worth remembering how often he failed and struggled and what-not. It helps offset the sort of hyperbole in comments like this. He ran his mouth because they were good mind games, he knew how to manipulate his opponent and he was also an exceptional player, to be sure.

LBJ and Durant needed to team up with multiple all-stars to compete, but Bird turned journey men and washed-up players and carried them into all-star games and eventually the HoF.

Bird, who won all of his titles with Parish, McHale and DJ. Parish, who was a 9-time All-Star who made a couple of All-NBA Teams in the 80s, including as late as 89. DJ, who was a 5-time All-Star who made 9 All-Defensive Teams (6 1st Teams) and was twice on the All-NBA Team (one 1st team), and was an NBA champion before ever coming to Boston. DJ was Finals MVP for the 79 title Sonics, and was an All-Star and All-D 1st Teamer that year, then two years later was All-NBA 1st team before he was anywhere near the Celtics. And McHale, who was a 6-time All-D guy, 7-time All-Star, 2-time 6MOY, led the league in FG% twice, finished 4th in the MVP race in 87, and made an All-NBA 1st Team.

And don't forget Danny Ainge, who also snuck in an AS appearance with Boston in 88.

And you want to talk about the talent Lebron had around him?

Do me a favor.

Imagine an NBA that had 20 SFs that were as good or better than Tatum and he was the best player in the world doing things nobody had ever seen.

That... isn't anything like what happened with Bird in the 80s. That's incredible hyperbole.

DJ was considered washed up and unloaded by the Suns after being unloaded by the Sonics. DJ was on his 3rd team and about to be out of the league. Parish was a mid-tier C who did nothing for the Warriors before being traded to Boston (I challenge you to find a player that had such a huge increase in FG% on similar production year to year). He essentially was a throw-in for the JBC for McHale trade. McHale was a 6th man. Yes, McHale and Parrish won all these accolades but that was because they played with Bird who made them into Hof players. To believe that Parish and McHale would have both finished top 5 in MVP playing for the Warriors is nonsense. The Celtics were a great organization that found players that fit under Birds leadership and play.

Put Larry Bird on any NBA team with a good front office and he is going to win multiple titles and whatever players he plays with will play in all-star games and reach the HoF.

[kcktiny]

DJ was considered washed up and unloaded by the Suns after being unloaded by the Sonics. DJ was on his 3rd team and about to be out of the league.

Oh? About to be out of the league?

This by chance the same Dennis Johnson that was all-defensive 1st team each of his 3 seasons with Phoenix? That was all-NBA 1st team his first year in Phoenix?

The same Dennis Johnson that in his 3 seasons with the Suns scored the 8th most points (4140) among all guards in the league, blocked the 3rd most shots (155), and grabbed the 6th most offensive rebounds (394)?

That Dennis Johnson?

Parish was a mid-tier C who did nothing for the Warriors before being traded to Boston

In 1978-79 and 1979-80 Parish was 4th in blocks (332), 6th in rebounds (1699), 7th in points scored (2527), yet played just the 16th most minutes (4530) among all Cs in the league. He was just 26 years of age and well on his way to being one of the better Cs in the league.

To believe that Parish and McHale would have both finished top 5 in MVP playing for the Warriors is nonsense.

Says who? Parish and McHale on a team with Bernard King and World Free? With Larry Smith and Purvis Short too? That would have been an awesome team.

This idea that one player is responsible for the success of others is what is nonsense. Bird was an all-time great player.

But to craft this fictional narrative that it was he and only he that was responsible for players like Parish, McHale, and D.J. being great is complete nonsense.

[theonlyclutch]

both in their primes

Bird quite easily. Bird was the better scorer, better shooter, better passer, had higher IQ, more clutch, a better leader than Garnett. There was talk of Bird being in the conversation of GOAT back in the 80s. It's hard to top a peak of 3 straight MVPs. This a ridiculous comparison.

It's hilarious how Bird's long track record as a playoff dropper gets ignored when that isn't convenient to the narrative:

Just look at Bird's long list of playoff failures:

1980- Averaged a .511 TS% in the postseason. In game 5 vs. the Sixers, he shot poorly, 5-19 with just 12 points, as the Celtics lost the game. His man (Dr. J) averaged 25 PPG in this series. His team loses in 5 games despite having HCA and winning 61 games. Had a 18.3 PER in the postseason

1981- Has a .532 TS% in the postseason. He had a bad finals where he averaged just 15 PPG on .419 shooting and .460 TS%.

1982- PPG average dropped from 22.9 PPG to 17.8 PPG. He has an embarrassing .474 TS% in the playoffs. He averaged a pedestrian 18.3 PPG against the Sixers. Averages 17 PPG in the final 2 games of the series. The Celtics lose again with HCA. The Celtics won 63 games and had the #1 SRS in the league. Has a 17.9 PER in the postseason.

1983- The Celtics get swept by the Bucks. The Celtics win 56 games and had the #2 SRS in the league and lose again with HCA. Bird plays awful again. .478 TS%. His PPG average drops 2 PPG in the playoffs. Bird missed a game in the series but that game happened to be the closest one (Celtics lose by 4). In the 3 other games, the Celtics lose by 14.3 PPG with Bird on the court.

1984- Great playoffs. Averaged 27-14-4 in the Finals and had a .607 TS% in the playoffs. First great playoff of his career. Celtics win the title over the Lakers.

1985- Celtics make the finals, but Bird's numbers drop in the playoffs. His PPG drops by 2.8 PPG, Reb by 1.2 Reb, and AST by 0.7 AST. Had an average .536 TS% in the postseason. Bird plays even worse in the finals. His PPG dropped 4.9 PPG, his Reb 1.7 Reb, and AST by 1.6 AST in the finals compared to his regular season average. His Finals TS% is just .527. Not only that, but Celtics finish with 63 wins and lose once again with HCA a constant theme in Bird's career. This is the first time in Celtics history they lost in the finals with HCA.

1986- Great year. His best year ever. Wins the title. .615 TS% in the postseason and amazing finals.

1987- I think this is his most admirable playoffs up until the finals. The Celtics were quite banged up this year. Averaged 27-10-7 in the postseason with .577 TS%. Though his numbers in the finals dropped off once again. His PPG was 3.9 PPG down from the regular season, AST down by 2.1 AST and his TS% was just .534. In game 6, Bird scored just 16 points on 6-16 (.375) shooting. In the final 3 games of this series, Bird averaged just 20 PPG on .377 shooting and .492 TS% with 3.7 TOV. This is the first time Bird has played without HCA in the playoffs and his team loses.

1988- Bird's PPG drops by 5.4 PPG, Reb by 0.5 Reb. Bird shoots an awful 40-114 (.351) against the Pistons. Has a mediocre .538 TS% and 20.2 PER in the playoffs. The Celtics had HCA and the #1 SRS in the league and you probably guessed what happened next, Larry Bird loses with HCA once again.

1989- Injured doesn't play in the postseason.

1990- Bird shoots .539 TS% and has 3.6 TOV as the Celtics once again you guessed it, lose with HCA.

1991- In the first round, his team needs to go 5 vs. the 41 win Pacers. His PPG drop by 2.3 PPG and his Rebounds and Assists also drop quite a bit. Has a .490 TS% 15.8 PER in the playoffs. Against the Pistons Bird averages 13.4 PPG on .446 TS%. His 56 win team played with you guessed it HCA and loses with it.

1992- Doesn't play in the first round as the Celtics sweep the Pacers. In round 2, his team goes 7 against the Cavs, but Bird plays in 4 games and his team was 1-3 in those games. Averages a pathetic 11.3 PPG and 4.5 Reb which are 8.4 PPG and 5.2 Reb down from his regular season average. He has a .514 TS% and 16.4 PER in the postseason.


So out of 12 years, you get 9 years under .540 TS%, 5 under .520 TS%, and 3 under .500 TS%. From 80-83, he had a 19.9 playoff PER. In that span, Johnny Moore, Franklin Edwards, Gus Williams, and Bob Lanier all had better playoff PER and WS/48. Teammates Parish, McHale, Tiny Archibald, and Cedric Maxwell had better TS% in that span. From 88-92, he had a 18.8 PER which is 25th among players with 10 playoff games played. Players who had better playoff PER's in that span include Fat Lever, Terry Cummings, Roy Tarpley, Cedric Ceballos, and Sarunas Marciulionis. His teammates Reggie Lewis and Kevin McHale had better playoff PER's in that span.

With Bird you get a nice 4 year run that had 4 straight finals appearances but outside of that you get a 4 year span of .505 TS% (80-83) and a .525 TS% span (88-92). In 12 years, you get 7 losses with HCA. Basically out of Bird's 13 year career, you have 1 injury season and 3 non-descript postseasons at the end of his plus some playoff disappointments early in his career.

Here's how both players performed during their primes in win-or-go-home situations, I wonder who is KG and who is Bird here?

A - 24.1/11.7/5.9 on 44/32/92, 51.5% TS
B - 21.5/13.5/4.6 on 45/27/72, 50.6% TS

[One_and_Done]

You should probably do those stats per100.

[McBubbles]

both in their primes

Bird quite easily. Bird was the better scorer, better shooter, better passer, had higher IQ, more clutch, a better leader than Garnett. There was talk of Bird being in the conversation of GOAT back in the 80s. It's hard to top a peak of 3 straight MVPs. This a ridiculous comparison.

There "was talk", of Larry Bird being in the GOAT conversation before;

Michael Jordan
Hakeem Olajuwon
Kevin Garnett
Shaquille O'Neal
Tim Duncan
Kobe Bryant
LeBron James

Had finished their careers. Respectfully, who cares lol.

[Jaivl]

LBJ and Durant needed to team up with multiple all-stars to compete, but Bird turned journey men and washed-up players and carried them into all-star games and eventually the HoF.

The post-truth world really is fascinating.

[70sFan]

LBJ and Durant needed to team up with multiple all-stars to compete, but Bird turned journey men and washed-up players and carried them into all-star games and eventually the HoF.

The post-truth world really is fascinating.

Frightening is the better word in my opinion.

[falcolombardi]

LBJ and Durant needed to team up with multiple all-stars to compete, but Bird turned journey men and washed-up players and carried them into all-star games and eventually the HoF.

The post-truth world really is fascinating.

Frightening is the better word in my opinion.

Is also such a hilarious example to use

Dennis johnson - former finals mvp

Robert parish - top end player in warriors before joining boston

Kevin mchale - star player during bird injured seasons

Walton that one year - literally a former mvp playing super backup minutes

[theonlyclutch]

You should probably do those stats per100.

Given those are individual games spread through literally 4 decades of basketball I am not going to do that, except as a general point that statline A was produced in a generally higher paced, more efficient era than statline B, which blunts the raw volume and efficiency advantage significantly.

And in any case, the overriding point is that in the highest stake situations (win-or-go-home), Larry Bird and Kevin Garnett can be expected to produce remarkably similarly on offense - which is not the predominant argument for Garnett.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

KG to be honest. Bird's not that good by eyetest lol

[70sFan]

KG to be honest. Bird's not that good by eyetest lol

Depending on the eyes to be fair, plenty of people are high on Bird because of eye test.

[IlikeSHAIguys]

KG to be honest. Bird's not that good by eyetest lol

Depending on the eyes to be fair, plenty of people are high on Bird because of eye test.

Yeah that's true for sure but those guys are kind of vague and stuff when they were praising Bird. Like even here the gap in like detail during the retro thing was kind of wild like you had guys just talking about MVP votes vs deep dives into defense and passing and all that.

[migya]

A good question is how do the TWolves perform with Bird in place of Sczerbiak? Obviously two alltime greats in Bird and KG but so were Kobe and Shaq and they could have just won one. A great mix with Bird and KG and really doesn't take adding much for them to compete most years.

[letskissbro]

KG is better. Didn’t think this would still be a debate on a board that’s usually good at moving on from dated takes.

It's night and day defensively. I struggle to call Bird an outright positive on D. He was a situational positive whose flaws were masked by his personnel. Struggled to guard in space but McHale (rare quick-footed 4) could take the 3 matchup so he could guard slower 4s and roam for steals.

Offense is Bird’s entire argument here, but the gap isn’t there (2025 IA PTS/75 / AST/75 / TS%):
Bird ’84–’86: 25.6 / 6.4 / 60.6
KG ’03–’05: 25.8 / 6.4 / 61.2

They're in the same tier in scoring, efficiency, and creation with KG being a big. Plus keep in mind KG was doing this with rosters that were often 1-deep in creation, while Bird had multiple HOFers and all-stars in their primes. Intangibles matter, but if we’re not careful, that’s where we risk drifting into the usual mental gymnastics to protect the Bird mythologizing status quo. To erase the defensive gulf Bird would need Steph-tier gravity and KG would have to be a spacing killing stiff. Or Bird would have to live up to his reputation as a PO assassin. Which simply is not the case.

[kcktiny]

I struggle to call Bird an outright positive on D.

Larry Bird? All-defensive team 3 straight years, played - by far - the most minutes on a Celtics team that over 9 seasons was the 2nd best defensive team in the league.

Talk about missing the obvious.

[migya]

I struggle to call Bird an outright positive on D.

Larry Bird? All-defensive team 3 straight years, played - by far - the most minutes on a Celtics team that over 9 seasons was the 2nd best defensive team in the league.

Talk about missing the obvious.

And yet Lebron is rated highly defensively, with so many years of lackluster and laziness.

[kcktiny]

And yet Lebron is rated highly defensively, with so many years of lackluster and laziness.

James was named to an all-defensive team six times (all-1st team 5 times, all-2nd team once), 2008-09 to 2013-14, 2 years with Cleveland (who he lead in playing time at 6020 minutes), then 4 years with Miami (again lead them in playing time at 11,168 minutes).

Those 6 seasons the teams he played on averaged 102.6 pts/100poss allowed on defense.

Those same 6 years the only individual teams that were better than that on defense were Chicago (101.9 pts/100poss allowed) and Boston (102.1 pts/100poss allowed). The other 28 teams averaged 103.2 to 109.4 pts/100poss allowed.

So the seasons he was named to an all-defensive team his team was very good defensively.

[Elpolo_14]

I Would take Kevin Garnett to be honest.( I usually have him really high when evaluating player )

His ability to anchor All time defensive team with his ability as all around defender whom elite on every aspect of defense ( On-ball / on-ball / Prerimeter / Interior / Switch / PnR-PnP defense ) Add to that the best defensive Motor I ever seen by a player post 60s . His capabilities on defense still impact whenever he is in floor riser situation ( Minnesota )or Ceiling rising situation ( Celtics ).
WITH his aptitude as a defender he still have enough room to be great on the offensive side of the floor.
Very Versatile Scorer and Shot making at long range to create more Spacing but he still lack on efficiency as a first option. A great PnR-PnP scorer and operator. Great Passing Playmaking as the first or Secondary Creator on the team *he better as the second just like bird tho* or to facilitate his team on-ball with bringing the ball up and set the offense "in Minnesota" or off ball as a slasher / catch shoot and being an Elite Screener.
Also the Rebounding ability is easily on KG favor IMO.

I know that KG has more limitations as a offensive engine compare to Larry bird but the defensive side of the ball make me pick KG instead. Other than that I think KG Peak higher and Have a better Longevity.

[migya]

And yet Lebron is rated highly defensively, with so many years of lackluster and laziness.

James was named to an all-defensive team six times (all-1st team 5 times, all-2nd team once), 2008-09 to 2013-14, 2 years with Cleveland (who he lead in playing time at 6020 minutes), then 4 years with Miami (again lead them in playing time at 11,168 minutes).

Those 6 seasons the teams he played on averaged 102.6 pts/100poss allowed on defense.

Those same 6 years the only individual teams that were better than that on defense were Chicago (101.9 pts/100poss allowed) and Boston (102.1 pts/100poss allowed). The other 28 teams averaged 103.2 to 109.4 pts/100poss allowed.

So the seasons he was named to an all-defensive team his team was very good defensively.

Doesn't mean he was a big part of that. He had teammates that were solid on that end and the coaching focussed on that also. He had some good defense but is nowhere near the best at his position at that.