Who was better in 1990? Magic or Jordan

[Narigo]

I think this is a close comparison. I think Magic peaked on offense in 1990 and was Arguably better than Jordan on offense. He became a good 3pt shooter His cast was worse than Jordan in the playoffs with Pippen playing better than Worthy and Scott in the playoffs. What do you think?

[70sFan]

I think Magic was better offensive player than Jordan. He just didn't have any weaknesses that could be exploited and his playmaking edge is so significant.

That said, Jordan was a clear positive on defense while Magic costed his team quite a bit on that end.

[lessthanjake]

I think it’s Jordan, but it’s closer than one might think. Peak Magic is actually pretty underrated IMO, and I think 1990 is arguably right there with 1987 as being Magic’s peak.

The data we have on both these guys that year is pretty stunning. Magic had a +20.27 on-off per 48 minutes in the 56 full regular-season games we have data for. Jordan’s was +24.49 per 48 minutes in 56 games as well. Squared’s RAPM has them #1 and #2 that year, with Magic actually being the one a bit ahead (though the sample of games happens to be a bit more biased against the Bulls, in terms of the team doing worse in the sample than in the full season). We don’t have playoff on-off data for Magic that year as far as I know, but we do know that Jordan had a gargantuan +30.10 on-off per 48 minutes in the 1990 playoffs. Meanwhile, in terms of box data, Magic had a 10.1 BPM and Jordan had a 11.2 BPM. Jordan’s playoff BPM was 13.7 and Magic’s was 8.0. In terms of Thinking Basketball BPM, Jordan was at 7.8 and Magic was at 7.7. In the playoffs, Jordan had a 9.4 Thinking Basketball BPM, compared to 8.1 for Magic. With win shares, Jordan had 0.285 WS/48 in the regular season, compared to 0.270 for Magic. In the playoffs, it was 0.284 for Jordan and 0.222 for Magic. Jordan also had a 12.3 RS+Playoff RAPTOR compared to 9.3 for Magic.

On balance, I think the data we have indicates that Jordan was better, but that it was actually pretty close. Which is a real testament to Magic. I think this data is consistent with popular perception of the players. I think perception of Magic has deteriorated a little bit over time, as there’s fewer and fewer fans that actually watched Magic when he played, but even as Jordan was being considered the GOAT by the end of the first three-peat, Magic wasn’t considered very far off. And I think the on-off data that we’re getting for Magic really bears out that he was in the very top-tier all time.

[Dr Positivity]

I have Jordan as the better player overall and this year and 91 are his best cases for peak season, so him.

[eminence]

What do we think about Suns v Lakers this season?

[tsherkin]

What do we think about Suns v Lakers this season?

How does that relate to Jordan/Magic in 1990? Am I missing something?

[eminence]

What do we think about Suns v Lakers this season?

How does that relate to Jordan/Magic in 1990? Am I missing something?

Magic Johnson played in that series? I haven't watched it at all recently, but overall the Lakers underperformed - how involved in that underperformance was Magic? Namely looking at how effectively they limited his playmaking (box score gazing I doubt his scoring was limited) and following his defense. KJ and Hornacek to a lesser degree in particular really went off, how'd that come about?

Anybody watched that series in the last 5 years?

[tsherkin]

What do we think about Suns v Lakers this season?

How does that relate to Jordan/Magic in 1990? Am I missing something?

Magic Johnson played in that series? I haven't watched it at all recently, but overall the Lakers underperformed - how involved in that underperformance was Magic? Namely looking at how effectively they limited his playmaking (box score gazing I doubt his scoring was limited) and following his defense. KJ and Hornacek to a lesser degree in particular really went off, how'd that come about?

Anybody watched that series in the last 5 years?

Ah, I see the mistake I made. I for whatever reason thought you literally meant THIS season, like 24-25. Because I'm illiterate xD

[TheGOATRises007]

Jordan surpassed Magic in 88 for me, so I'd pick him.

[capfan33]

Echoing what others have said, this is very much a discussion. While Magic was likely better on offense, the defensive gap is large enough that this is comfortably MJ.

[migya]

Jordan carried much on offense, with less support than Magic. He was also a very good passer. It's not clear who was better offensively but probably was Jordan.

[70sFan]

Jordan carried much on offense, with less support than Magic. He was also a very good passer. It's not clear who was better offensively but probably was Jordan.

Why do you even mention passing, when the gap is enormous? It would be similar to saying that Magic was also a very good scorer (he was).

[migya]

Jordan carried much on offense, with less support than Magic. He was also a very good passer. It's not clear who was better offensively but probably was Jordan.

Why do you even mention passing, when the gap is enormous? It would be similar to saying that Magic was also a very good scorer (he was).

Don't think it was that big a difference. Offense is more than this but if you go assists plus scoring, both are about the same as Jordan was 11pts ahead and Magic 5 assists ahead. Jordan had less to work with also.

[70sFan]

Jordan carried much on offense, with less support than Magic. He was also a very good passer. It's not clear who was better offensively but probably was Jordan.

Why do you even mention passing, when the gap is enormous? It would be similar to saying that Magic was also a very good scorer (he was).

Don't think it was that big a difference. Offense is more than this but if you go assists plus scoring, both are about the same as Jordan was 11pts ahead and Magic 5 assists ahead. Jordan had less to work with also.

Yeah, offense doesn't work this way.

Jordan had less to work with but his team also did visibly less. Besides, the next year they had comparable offensive supporting cast (until injuries destroyed Lakers chances). Magic and Jordan needed different rosters around them to manifest their strengths.

[migya]

Why do you even mention passing, when the gap is enormous? It would be similar to saying that Magic was also a very good scorer (he was).

Don't think it was that big a difference. Offense is more than this but if you go assists plus scoring, both are about the same as Jordan was 11pts ahead and Magic 5 assists ahead. Jordan had less to work with also.

Yeah, offense doesn't work this way.

Jordan had less to work with but his team also did visibly less. Besides, the next year they had comparable offensive supporting cast (until injuries destroyed Lakers chances). Magic and Jordan needed different rosters around them to manifest their strengths.

The following year in the finals Jordan got one less assist a game than Magic, at 11.4, and scored much more.

[70sFan]

Don't think it was that big a difference. Offense is more than this but if you go assists plus scoring, both are about the same as Jordan was 11pts ahead and Magic 5 assists ahead. Jordan had less to work with also.

Yeah, offense doesn't work this way.

Jordan had less to work with but his team also did visibly less. Besides, the next year they had comparable offensive supporting cast (until injuries destroyed Lakers chances). Magic and Jordan needed different rosters around them to manifest their strengths.

The following year in the finals Jordan got one less assist a game than Magic, at 11.4, and scored much more.

I hope you use consistent logic to say that Jordan is better passer than Larry Bird, because Bird didn't have 11.4 APG in any playoff series if I remember correctly.

[LukaTheGOAT]

90 Jordan

It doesn't get discussed as such because maybe he didn't have as crazy of a statistical RS as 88 nor as wild of a a PS/championship combo as 91, but 90 has an argument for being his peak.

The 2-way ability is what really swings things in Jordan's favor.

1990 Jordan might be the best season to not win a MVP ever and the best playoff series to end in a loss.

Jordan had maybe his best series against the Pistons in 90. He was dominant every year but, in 90 I would say he had a notable bump from 89 as an offensive player.

Jordan series averages vs Pistons
1988: 27.4 ppg 8.8 rpg 4.6 apg 2.0 spg
1989: 29.7 ppg 6.5 apg 5.5 rpg 2.0 spg
1990: 32.1 ppg 7.1 rpg 6.3 apg 2.1 spg
1991: 29.8 ppg 7 apg 5.3 rpg 2.3 spg 1.8 bpg

I am not sure if any player from this period, as thoroughly dominated the Pistons as Jordan did in 90. What he did against the best defense of the 88-91, figures heavily into this for me. The defense is what makes him the clear choice.

[70sFan]

90 Jordan

It doesn't get discussed as such because maybe he didn't have as crazy of a statistical RS as 88 nor as wild of a a PS/championship combo as 91, but 90 has an argument for being his peak.

The 2-way ability is what really swings things in Jordan's favor.

1990 Jordan might be the best season to not win a MVP ever and the best playoff series to end in a loss.

Jordan had maybe his best series against the Pistons in 90. He was dominant every year but, in 90 I would say he had a notable bump from 89 as an offensive player.

Jordan series averages vs Pistons
1988: 27.4 ppg 8.8 rpg 4.6 apg 2.0 spg
1989: 29.7 ppg 6.5 apg 5.5 rpg 2.0 spg
1990: 32.1 ppg 7.1 rpg 6.3 apg 2.1 spg
1991: 29.8 ppg 7 apg 5.3 rpg 2.3 spg 1.8 bpg

I am not sure if any player from this period, as thoroughly dominated the Pistons as Jordan did in 90. What he did against the best defense of the 88-91, figures heavily into this for me. The defense is what makes him the clear choice.

I don't disagree with the conclusion, but I'd just point out that I find Magic performance against Pistons far more impressive than Jordan's in 1988. A shame Magic didn't have a chance to repeat it in 1989, I'd expect another great series from him.

[homecourtloss]

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I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure it was you a few years back who posted about Magic’s offensive arsenal in the 1990 (maybe late ‘80s and early ‘90s) and remarked about how even after Kareem, Magic was able to create all time offense with a decent supporting offensive cast but not necessarily a great one. I really would have loved to see Magic on a n offensively challenged roster and see what was possible though 1991 was close to that.

[70sFan]

.

I’m not sure, but I’m pretty sure it was you a few years back who posted about Magic’s offensive arsenal in the 1990 (maybe late ‘80s and early ‘90s) and remarked about how even after Kareem, Magic was able to create all time offense with a decent supporting offensive cast but not necessarily a great one. I really would have loved to see Magic on a n offensively challenged roster and see what was possible though 1991 was close to that.

I did work on 1990 Magic video few years ago (which crashed during the rendering unfortunately). I think people vastly overstate how good 1990-91 Lakers teams were offensively.