Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Iwasawitness]

What player played with more allstar teammates than LeBron before playing with him and during playing with him. Doubt it's close At all.

Well what's the criteria here? Do they have to be former all stars or is just making the all star team WHILE playing with LeBron?

[dhsilv2]

Quick question.

Has Lebron ever had anything REMOTELY close to the talent level Stockton had in his first stint in cleveland?

Malone all those cavs players put together i mean what are we talking about?

These old heads are borderline (Please Use More Appropriate Word) with their takes at times.

nor did he have kareem or pippen or mchale

HE DIDN'T HAVE TO. he only had to gather the best at that time. wade bosh allen battier love kyrie ad and a total of 60 allstar/all pro/hof/ all D teammates ...BY FAR more than any other goat ever had

lebron only had to put his thumb on the scales when he was playing

i'm pretty sure all the past greats except maybe walton, has thrown a stinky eye lebron's way

Ray Allen and Battier

What are the emoji's for? Is that like clapping for their greatness?

[dhsilv2]

Old Ray Allen and Battier were good role players but dude was listing them alongside people like Wade as if they were notable help for an ATG to have.

You realize that when you have more good players on one team...it's exponentially additive right?


Like lets take the 150th best player in the NBA.

If he's on a team with 6 better players. he's a massive giant, HUGE deal. Your roster is stacked/loaded/jacked/the first time alpha was true. If he's the second or third best player...that's not so great.

[michaelm]

I would be inclined to say old man yelling at clouds except he isn’t all that old.

They both made the choices which they considered best and despite being on the Jordan side of the overall debate I don’t consider LeBron’s path to his titles to have been any easier, that path may have been more difficult if anything. As others have said LeBron didn’t have the choice to do as Jordan did and stay with the franchise he was drafted by if he wanted to win titles. I also tend to believe Jordan might have left the Bulls if things hadn’t started to come together there.

I agree with Stockton the other way though, and disagree with those who deflect credit from Jordan to Phil Jackson, Krause, or players such as Rodman or even Pippen, sure they were significant contributors but it was all built around Jordan imo.

[LockoutSeason]

Go look at some of the teams ai tmac iverson pierce carter Kobe etc had in the early to mid 2000s. They’d be begging to have the talent LeBron was surrounded with in his first Cleveland run.

That Cleveland team was bad. Before the recent Piston team, they were the worse team record wise in NBA history Lebron left, lol. The fact LBJ brought that team to the finals tells you how good Lebron was rather than how good that team was. And it kinda tells you how much better Lebron is compared to the players you listed.

Those Cleveland teams had a ton more talent than the ones those guys were carrying.

They had a ton more talent because they had Lebron.

None of the players you listed would crack 30 wins with Big Z as their second option.

[theonlyclutch]

Malone: Stockton was never enough help to win a title with.

[durden_tyler]

If Lebron did what KD did with the Warriors then I would agree....but Lebron never joined a team that was already capable of winning a championship before AND after him joining/leaving.

Let's not revise history; it was LeBron who started the super team era.

[A_Fernz23]

Superteams have existed since the beginning lmao, the 1969 Lakers in which Wilt joined West and Elgin. The 80s Lakers who acquired Worthy, Cooper, old McAdoo and Wilkes as well as the Celtics with McHale, Tiny, Dennis Johnson and Parish. Moses joining an already stacked 76ers team in 83 with Erving, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks. The Bulls not only having a consistent top 5-10 player, arguably top 5 in 96-97 but adding Rodman+Arguably the best sixth man in the league for 96-98 along with Horace Grant also being all star level from 91-93, one of the best paint protecting forwards and Pippen being top 5-10 at that point as well, relative to the league at the time, that was a significant disparity, no other team was as deep as the Bulls nor had two top ten players outside of Shaq and Penny in 95-96 maybe. Oh and the fcking Celtics in 2008? But when LeBron spends seven years of his career in abysmal team situations, taking a team whose second best player is Mo Williams to 66 wins only for them to go completely cold come playoffs, blaming him for losing in 2008 against a top 5 defense of all time or a stacked Spurs team at age 22 with very little offensive help. Some of ya’ll literally deify players without realising it’s a team game. “Let’s not revise history” my ass lol

[lakerz12]

Agree or disagree? They do feel like mercenary chips: https://sports.yahoo.com/article/top-75-nba-player-throws-175054096.html

You should change the thread title: Stockton never says “LeBron’s titles don’t have value”.

Why would you use that fake news title or do you not know what the word “devalue” means?

[michaelm]

Superteams have existed since the beginning lmao, the 1969 Lakers in which Wilt joined West and Elgin. The 80s Lakers who acquired Worthy, Cooper, old McAdoo and Wilkes as well as the Celtics with McHale, Tiny, Dennis Johnson and Parish. Moses joining an already stacked 76ers team in 83 with Erving, Bobby Jones, Andrew Toney and Mo Cheeks. The Bulls not only having a consistent top 5-10 player, arguably top 5 in 96-97 but adding Rodman+Arguably the best sixth man in the league for 96-98 along with Horace Grant also being all star level from 91-93, one of the best paint protecting forwards and Pippen being top 5-10 at that point as well, relative to the league at the time, that was a significant disparity, no other team was as deep as the Bulls nor had two top ten players outside of Shaq and Penny in 95-96 maybe. Oh and the fcking Celtics in 2008? But when LeBron spends seven years of his career in abysmal team situations, taking a team whose second best player is Mo Williams to 66 wins only for them to go completely cold come playoffs, blaming him for losing in 2008 against a top 5 defense of all time or a stacked Spurs team at age 22 with very little offensive help. Some of ya’ll literally deify players without realising it’s a team game. “Let’s not revise history” my ass lol

I do consider it to be true that LeBron was the initiator of the player power era/self assembly of elite players in their primes with the assistance of his own player agency, although he obviously got the idea from the Celtics big 3 who got together at rather different stages in their careers and probably without as much collusion ahead of events. That era seems to be over, and it only really ever worked for LeBron who had the rather strong advantage of being a member of his own teams of course.

It is somewhat revisionist to try to deflect credit away from Jordan for the success of the Jordan Bulls imo. Of course he had help from other excellent elite players who deserve plenty of credit, but those teams were built around him and those players most of whom were drafted by the Bulls prospered next to him, and the Bulls aside from the Jordan years are not much less hapless as an organisation than the Cavs have mostly been. Rodman ended up being a strong contributor for 2 years of the second threepeat at least but I don’t recall much opinion that he still had it when he was signed by the Bulls, with whom he had a previous bitter enmity, he was getting into his mid 30s after an injury plagued year and his eccentricity had made him a byline in Hollywood movies by then.

[sashaturiaf]

I see nothing but facts

[badpotato]

Stockton should stick to his fond memories of throwing dishes to child predator.

[JujitsuFlip]

Lebron was in a no-win situation. He stays in Cleveland, in his first stint, he never wins a championship. He goes to Miami he is a ring chaser and his rings are devalued.

How do you now he never wins in Cleveland. You don't.

Stockton might be FOs, but the one thing there is no doubt about, Lebron has colluded more than once to win titles. Or it has resulted in winning titles.

And if you want to respond players can't collude, you're wrong.

But who cares? It obviously works.

This isn't KD or Kyrie or Harden who bounce around via trade to all these teams and never win.

LeBron has always left as a free agent.

[Rust_Cohle]

Lebron also had to go up against better teams in the finals too. The sword cuts both ways.

You can say you don’t “like” the way LeBron teams were built, but I don’t think those things really have a clearly defined place when discussing the merit of his career.

Yes, harder finals opponents but a much much weaker conference than the west making it easier to get to the finals.

[Johnny Bball]

Lebron was in a no-win situation. He stays in Cleveland, in his first stint, he never wins a championship. He goes to Miami he is a ring chaser and his rings are devalued.

How do you now he never wins in Cleveland. You don't.

Stockton might be FOs, but the one thing there is no doubt about, Lebron has colluded more than once to win titles. Or it has resulted in winning titles.

And if you want to respond players can't collude, you're wrong.

But who cares? It obviously works.

This isn't KD or Kyrie or Harden who bounce around via trade to all these teams and never win.

LeBron has always left as a free agent.

Obviously, John Stockton does. Does it matter how he colluded?

[JujitsuFlip]

How do you now he never wins in Cleveland. You don't.

Stockton might be FOs, but the one thing there is no doubt about, Lebron has colluded more than once to win titles. Or it has resulted in winning titles.

And if you want to respond players can't collude, you're wrong.

But who cares? It obviously works.

This isn't KD or Kyrie or Harden who bounce around via trade to all these teams and never win.

LeBron has always left as a free agent.

Obviously, John Stockton does. Does it matter how he colluded?

Well, he's just some old guy shaking his fist at the clouds lol

Stockton and anyone else who hate LeBron would be happier if LeBron stayed in CLE his entire career and never won a title.

It is the oddest thing I've ever seen.

[Johnny Bball]

But who cares? It obviously works.

This isn't KD or Kyrie or Harden who bounce around via trade to all these teams and never win.

LeBron has always left as a free agent.

Obviously, John Stockton does. Does it matter how he colluded?

Well, he's just some old guy shaking his fist at the clouds lol

Stockton and anyone else who hate LeBron would be happier if LeBron stayed in CLE his entire career and never won a title.

It is the oddest thing I've ever seen.

Again, you have no idea that this is true and from all we saw it probably isn't.

This is a basketball forum, everyone is yelling at clouds, they just vary in age!

[cupcakesnake]

Quick question.

Has Lebron ever had anything REMOTELY close to the talent level Stockton had in his first stint in cleveland?

Malone all those cavs players put together i mean what are we talking about?

These old heads are borderline (Please Use More Appropriate Word) with their takes at times.

Cavs had a lot of size and defensive talent at times, but never another all-NBA type of teammate. Zydrunas Ilgauskas was his best teammate, and was super useful in that era as a giant rim protector who could space the floor (not quite to 3, but enough to clear the paint for Lebron driving lanes). Mo Williams was a weak all-star for one season, but his shooting a secondary ball handling fit well with Lebron. Anderson Varejao was a big difference maker with his size, hustle, and decision making.

After that it's a bunch of aging vets. Ben Wallace and Shaq each had moments of serious impact but couldn't stay healthy enough to make a big picture difference. Anthony Parker got there too old. Antawn Jamison was a weird fit.

[JujitsuFlip]

Obviously, John Stockton does. Does it matter how he colluded?

Well, he's just some old guy shaking his fist at the clouds lol

Stockton and anyone else who hate LeBron would be happier if LeBron stayed in CLE his entire career and never won a title.

It is the oddest thing I've ever seen.

Again, you have no idea that this is true and from all we saw it probably isn't.

This is a basketball forum, everyone is yelling at clouds, they just vary in age!

And you have no idea that it's not true. But LeBron never winning is what all who despise him wanted, for sure.

He just happened to be too good and took 3 franchises, with 3 different coaches, and 3 different sidekicks to the top. Kudos to him, GOAT.

[KyRo23]

Imagine being down 3-1 to what some people claim is the best team of all time, coming back to win game 7 while leading both teams in every major statistical category, winning a championship for your hometown team who hadn’t won a major sports title in 5+ decades and some old dude says it doesn’t have any value

No one hates their own sport as much as retired NBA players. Just an embarrassing take