2000-'10 Kobe/Duncan vs 2013-'23 Curry/Lebron

[Matt15]

Which duo would you rather take for these 11 years respectively?

[TheGOATRises007]

Curry/LeBron rather easily to be honest

[lessthanjake]

The Curry/LeBron duo is better. That said, the time period here isn’t as optimized for them. Curry wasn’t in his prime yet in 2013 (though he was good already), and he also missed basically all of 2020. Meanwhile, we are including the 2021-2023 period for LeBron—which is not his prime. The time period also doesn’t include several of LeBron’s peak years. Meanwhile, 2000-2010 is pretty optimal for Kobe/Duncan. That’s probably the best span of that length that we could have for Kobe (with 2001-2011 being the only competitor, and that’s almost entirely overlapping). Similarly, Duncan’s optimal timeframe might shift a year or two back, but 2000-2010 is pretty close to the best time period for him. So it’s a pretty optimized Kobe/Duncan time period vs. an unoptimized Curry/LeBron time period.

With all that in mind, I think it’s really close. The Curry/LeBron duo would definitely peak higher—with them being better in the mid-2010’s than Kobe/Duncan would ever have been IMO. But you might still take Kobe/Duncan for these time periods, because they’re going to provide you more consistency across the entire time period.

[One_and_Done]

The GOAT gets Curry, while Duncan is shackled to Kobe. Not a very fair comp.

[Cavsfansince84]

If I'm choosing between 2000-2010 Kobe/Duncan being paired together in that timeframe and 2013-23 LeBron/Steph paired in that timeframe then I think I'd go Kobe/Duncan. Too many of the LeBron/Steph years are lost due to injury(basically 19&20 with parts of others) while Kobe & TD will easily contend for titles every year outside of 2000.

[Djoker]

If I'm choosing between 2000-2010 Kobe/Duncan being paired together in that timeframe and 2013-23 LeBron/Steph paired in that timeframe then I think I'd go Kobe/Duncan. Too many of the LeBron/Steph years are lost due to injury(basically 19&20 with parts of others) while Kobe & TD will easily contend for titles every year outside of 2000.

This. Curry/Lebron had way more injuries in their 11-year span that this is a simple choice.

[homecourtloss]

If I'm choosing between 2000-2010 Kobe/Duncan being paired together in that timeframe and 2013-23 LeBron/Steph paired in that timeframe then I think I'd go Kobe/Duncan. Too many of the LeBron/Steph years are lost due to injury(basically 19&20 with parts of others) while Kobe & TD will easily contend for titles every year outside of 2000.

Duncan/Kobe would get 10 years when both were available in the playoffs.

LeBron/Curry might also get 10. Assuming LeBron still plays 34 games to start the season in 2019 with 12 of these games with a red hot Curry (first 12 games were crazy that year) and then 23 overall with Curry before James get injured, and then Curry carries the load allowing James to slowly return from injury.

Curry wasn’t in his prime yet in 2013 (though he was good already), and he also missed basically all of 2020. Meanwhile, we are including the 2021-2023 period for LeBron—which is not his prime. The time period also doesn’t include several of LeBron’s peak years. Meanwhile, 2000-2010 is pretty optimal for Kobe/Duncan. That’s probably the best span of that length that we could have for Kobe (with 2001-2011 being the only competitor, and that’s almost entirely overlapping).

While not optimal for Curry and 2021-2023 being out of LeBron’s prime, Lebron’s outlier span of impact sees a leading single year RAPM in 2021 and and overall healthy 2021-2023 3 yr that compares decently to Kobe’s peak/prime.

LeBron



Kobe



Curry



Duncan

[lessthanjake]

If I'm choosing between 2000-2010 Kobe/Duncan being paired together in that timeframe and 2013-23 LeBron/Steph paired in that timeframe then I think I'd go Kobe/Duncan. Too many of the LeBron/Steph years are lost due to injury(basically 19&20 with parts of others) while Kobe & TD will easily contend for titles every year outside of 2000.

Duncan/Kobe would get 10 years when both were available in the playoffs.

LeBron/Curry might also get 10. Assuming LeBron still plays 34 games to start the season in 2019 with 12 of these games with a red hot Curry (first 12 games were crazy that year) and then 23 overall with Curry before James get injured, and then Curry carries the load allowing James to slowly return from injury.

Curry wasn’t in his prime yet in 2013 (though he was good already), and he also missed basically all of 2020. Meanwhile, we are including the 2021-2023 period for LeBron—which is not his prime. The time period also doesn’t include several of LeBron’s peak years. Meanwhile, 2000-2010 is pretty optimal for Kobe/Duncan. That’s probably the best span of that length that we could have for Kobe (with 2001-2011 being the only competitor, and that’s almost entirely overlapping).

While not optimal for Curry and 2021-2023 being out of LeBron’s prime, Lebron’s outlier span of impact sees a leading single year RAPM in 2021 and and overall healthy 2021-2023 3 yr that compares decently to Kobe’s peak/prime.

LeBron



Kobe



Curry



Duncan

I think if you just look at RAPM you could make a case that 2021-2023 LeBron isn’t really worse than all but the very peak years for Kobe. At which point the question in this thread probably becomes a pretty easy choice. But I’d note a few things:

1. RAPM has always been the type of stat that is lowest on Kobe. And honestly, even leaving RAPM aside, data in general isn’t high on Kobe at all. But I think most people tend to have a substantially higher view of Kobe than the data indicates. Maybe that’s wrong. I tend to put a significant emphasis on data myself, but I still see Kobe in a better light than hard data would tell me to. If one doesn’t, then the answer to this thread is pretty easily Curry/LeBron IMO, but I don’t think that’s the most common view of Kobe.

2. RAPM is a rate stat, and LeBron missed a whole lot of time every single year from 2021-2023. He *averaged* missing 27 games a season in those years, including missing 27 games in the year you mention him “leading single year RAPM.” That definitely matters a good deal. Curry is also missing a good bit of time in this timeframe—with 2020 being most obvious, but also a good bit of missed time in other years (particularly 2023 and 2018). In the 2019-2023 time period, the Curry/LeBron duo missed 237 regular season games. There’s not one season in that timeframe where they both played more than 56 games. I can see an argument that we should only really care much about health in the playoffs specifically, but missing lots of regular season games matters a lot, and, in any event, I’m not apt to trust that guys who missed that many regular season games would actually make it all the way through a title run (which is harder to do than being healthy through the shorter runs that they often had in those years). Basically, I’m just somewhat skeptical that the Curry/LeBron duo could’ve actually both stayed healthy for a title run at any time between 2019-2023. Which seems like a pretty big deal for the comparison in this thread.

3. As a sidenote on that “leading single year RAPM” thing, I’d note that Engelmann does PI RAPM (with prior years’ RAPM as the prior) for his single-year RAPM, and I *believe* that’s the case even for his xRAPM (though I’m not certain, since Engelmann’s stuff is really a black box). What that functionally means is that the results of his single-year RAPM end up being more akin to a multi-year RAPM that ends at that year (obviously it’s calculated differently than that would be, but the results will be broadly similar). Which basically makes it really lag in catching players’ ascents and declines, as well as not really catching abnormally good or bad seasons when they happen. This is why, for instance, LeBron has a higher xRAPM in 2011 than he does in 2009. For this reason, in terms of xRAPM, I think the quality of LeBron in that 2021-2023 period is probably most accurately represented by the 2023 xRAPM, since I believe that’s weighting 2021 and 2022 highly for the prior.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think if you just look at RAPM you could make a case that 2021-2023 LeBron isn’t really worse than all but the very peak years for Kobe. At which point the question in this thread probably becomes a pretty easy choice. But I’d note a few things:

1. RAPM has always been the type of stat that is lowest on Kobe. And honestly, even leaving RAPM aside, data in general isn’t high on Kobe at all. But I think most people tend to have a substantially higher view of Kobe than the data indicates. Maybe that’s wrong. I tend to put a significant emphasis on data myself, but I still see Kobe in a better light than hard data would tell me to. If one doesn’t, then the answer to this thread is pretty easily Curry/LeBron IMO, but I don’t think that’s the most common view of Kobe.

2. RAPM is a rate stat, and LeBron missed a whole lot of time every single year from 2021-2023. He *averaged* missing 27 games a season in those years, including missing 27 games in the year you mention him “leading single year RAPM.” That definitely matters a good deal. Curry is also missing a good bit of time in this timeframe—with 2020 being most obvious, but also a good bit of missed time in other years (particularly 2023 and 2018). In the 2019-2023 time period, the Curry/LeBron duo missed 237 regular season games. There’s not one season in that timeframe where they both played more than 56 games. I can see an argument that we should only really care much about health in the playoffs specifically, but missing lots of regular season games matters a lot, and, in any event, I’m not apt to trust that guys who missed that many regular season games would actually make it all the way through a title run (which is harder to do than being healthy through the shorter runs that they often had in those years). Basically, I’m just somewhat skeptical that the Curry/LeBron duo could’ve actually both stayed healthy for a title run at any time between 2019-2023. Which seems like a pretty big deal for the comparison in this thread.

3. As a sidenote on that “leading single year RAPM” thing, I’d note that Engelmann does PI RAPM (with prior years’ RAPM as the prior) for his single-year RAPM, and I *believe* that’s the case even for his xRAPM (though I’m not certain, since Engelmann’s stuff is really a black box). What that functionally means is that the results of his single-year RAPM end up being more akin to a multi-year RAPM that ends at that year (obviously it’s calculated differently than that would be, but the results will be broadly similar). Which basically makes it really lag in catching players’ ascents and declines, as well as not really catching abnormally good or bad seasons when they happen. This is why, for instance, LeBron has a higher xRAPM in 2011 than he does in 2009. For this reason, in terms of xRAPM, I think the quality of LeBron in that 2021-2023 period is probably most accurately represented by the 2023 xRAPM, since I believe that’s weighting 2021 and 2022 highly for the prior.

The other thing is that in pretty much every playoffs that LeBron was able to play in after 2020 he was still banged up if not playing through somewhat serious injuries. I don't even remember specific injuries for Steph since 2020 but he missed on avg 20 games a year from 21-23 and its harder for guys to maintain a high level throughout a title run past the age of about 33 when they are banged up during the rs.

[LakerLegend]

Kobe and Duncan by a mile. Don’t see how this is even a question.

[The Explorer]

I take Bryant & Duncan quite easily. Better defensively, more stability, more durability, more reliable overall as a duo.

[trelos6]

I’d imagine Curry / LeBron sweep from ‘13-‘19.

Then the ‘20 injury. I can also see ‘21-‘22.

So probably 8 titles. Obv. Depending on them getting a few complimentary support pieces.

Duncan was injured in ‘00 playoffs, but after that, Prime Duncan early on with a young Kobe, then Kobe’s prime as Duncan starts to enter post prime. I think the Celtics in ‘08 could be the toughest opponent, as well as the ‘04 Pistons, with Kobe’s chucker mentality potentially costing them a series. Again, depends on the role players they put around the 2, but I can definitely see 7 titles.

[Elpolo_14]

Lebron and Curry By a Big margin. I don't know how it can be a Comparison.

It would definitely be a GOAT offensive Duo no doubt.

[iggymcfrack]

LeBron/Curry duo seems like a trivially easy choice. 2020’s a lost season due to the Curry injury, but even in 2021 when Bron was banged up and had a bad playoffs for him, he still put up better numbers than Kobe did any season of his career.

Meanwhile, the Kobe/Duncan aging curve isn’t as smooth of a fit as you might think. Duncan’s best years are 1999-2007 and Kobe’s are 2008-2010 so they don’t even really match up that well.

If you match up the years, I feel like 2000/2013 and 2001/2014 are pretty close, 2007/2020 goes to Kobe and Duncan and every other year goes to Curry and LeBron.

[An Unbiased Fan]

LOL, both Kobe and TD would have 7+ rings if they didn't play in each other's era, so imagine if they were teammates. You're talking a 60's Celtics like dynasty.

Lebron/Curry would be good, but frankly I think Curry works best next to another shooter like Klay. And for Bron he has no inside star help, which hurts both defensively and in the halfcourt. I'm not convinced Bron/Curry is better than Bron/Wade/Bosh(and they had Ray too lol)