Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Tnasty4l]

Says the guy with no titles.

[ball_takes23]

Let's not revise history; it was LeBron who started the super team era.

No he didn't lol

This gets dispelled every single time the MJ vs LBJ debate gets brought up yet people are still stuck on the narrative.

If the Boston BIG 3 [4] are never formed, LeBron never goes to Miami.

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

Let's not revise history; it was LeBron who started the super team era.

No he didn't lol

This gets dispelled every single time the MJ vs LBJ debate gets brought up yet people are still stuck on the narrative.

If the Boston BIG 3 [4] are never formed, LeBron never goes to Miami.

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

In all fairness, the first year of Boston’s big 3 they were a super team because KG hadn’t hit his hard decline yet. Not sure why you brought up Dwight when he only beat them with KG injured and unavailable. And that Lakers team wasn’t just a Bosh level sidekick, they had real depth, and Odom/Artest/Bynum had significant roles.

Also while those Heat were stacked on paper, besides the total lack of depth year 1, you also have to factor Wade/LeBron was a suboptimal fit that wasted some of their strengths, while KG/Pierce/Allen was a near perfect fit. And Wade himself started declining by year 2, and in years 3/4 was hurting them at times in the playoffs due to spacing issues.

[ball_takes23]

No he didn't lol

This gets dispelled every single time the MJ vs LBJ debate gets brought up yet people are still stuck on the narrative.

If the Boston BIG 3 [4] are never formed, LeBron never goes to Miami.

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

In all fairness, the first year of Boston’s big 3 they were a super team because KG hadn’t hit his hard decline yet. Not sure why you brought up Dwight when he only beat them with KG injured and unavailable. And that Lakers team wasn’t just a Bosh level sidekick, they had real depth, and Odom/Artest/Bynum had significant roles.

Also while those Heat were stacked on paper, besides the total lack of depth year 1, you also have to factor Wade/LeBron was a suboptimal fit that wasted some of their strengths, while KG/Pierce/Allen was a near perfect fit. And Wade himself started declining by year 2, and in years 3/4 was hurting them at times in the playoffs due to spacing issues.

The entire point of the post is that boston was full of aging/declining players and being injured is a large part of aging/declining. It’s part of the territory that comes with playing 15 years in the NBA. And it’s not exactly like he went back to being an elite player after returning from that injury.

[Onlytimewilltel]

18 pages

[JujitsuFlip]

Let's not revise history; it was LeBron who started the super team era.

No he didn't lol

This gets dispelled every single time the MJ vs LBJ debate gets brought up yet people are still stuck on the narrative.

If the Boston BIG 3 [4] are never formed, LeBron never goes to Miami.

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

Huh? What an odd mis-remembering of history.

I do not rate 40 year old Malone joning the Lakers his final NBA season as anything similar to 31 year old KG (played 9 more seasons) or 32 year old Allen (played 7 more seasons) joining the Celtics.

Bosh was not a superstar, stop it lol

[Johnny Bball]

You know Lebron's first choice was him and Wade playing with Rose in Chicago right? Never forms a super if Boston doesn't, lol. Only at the first opportunity and in more than one place to do it.

[ball_takes23]

No he didn't lol

This gets dispelled every single time the MJ vs LBJ debate gets brought up yet people are still stuck on the narrative.

If the Boston BIG 3 [4] are never formed, LeBron never goes to Miami.

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

Huh? What an odd mis-remembering of history.

I do not rate 40 year old Malone joning the Lakers his final NBA season as anything similar to 31 year old KG (played 9 more seasons) or 32 year old Allen (played 7 more seasons) joining the Celtics.

Bosh was not a superstar, stop it lol

Barkley was 33 when he teamed up with Hakeem and Pippen. Payton was 35 when he joined up with Malone and Kobe/Shaq. Sounds like my memory is pretty good.


Ringchasing was something that players used to do once they got into their 30s without having one, not something that they did in their prime years.

[Cavsfansince84]

You know Lebron's first choice was him and Wade playing with Rose in Chicago right? Never forms a super if Boston doesn't, lol. Only at the first opportunity and in more than one place to do it.

That was still after Boston had done it. Same Boston team which eliminated LeBron's team twice before he left. Bringing up Chicago doesn't change that in the least. I don't think anyone knows(LeBron included) what he would have done if he'd made the finals in 08&2010(had they beat Orl). Maybe he leaves, maybe he doesn't but that's his right as an nba player. I don't understand why people want to keep things the same way they were in the 60's all the way for eternity. It's just stupid.

[JujitsuFlip]

You know Lebron's first choice was him and Wade playing with Rose in Chicago right? Never forms a super if Boston doesn't, lol. Only at the first opportunity and in more than one place to do it.

Guarantee you that plan came together after July 31st, 2007. But hey, whatever ya gotta tell yourself.

Just a narrator note, to the readers, Rose wasn't drafted until June 26th, 2008.

Interesting...

[JujitsuFlip]

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

Huh? What an odd mis-remembering of history.

I do not rate 40 year old Malone joning the Lakers his final NBA season as anything similar to 31 year old KG (played 9 more seasons) or 32 year old Allen (played 7 more seasons) joining the Celtics.

Bosh was not a superstar, stop it lol

Barkley was 33 when he teamed up with Hakeem and Pippen. Payton was 35 when he joined up with Malone and Kobe/Shaq. Sounds like my memory is pretty good.


Ringchasing was something that players used to do once they got into their 30s without having one, not something that they did in their prime years.

No, your memory isn't because you skipped over the Celtics, which is the main point of the conversation...

KG wasn't close to retirement, dude played 9 more seasons lol hell, Ray played 7 more.

[MavsDirk41]

You know Lebron's first choice was him and Wade playing with Rose in Chicago right? Never forms a super if Boston doesn't, lol. Only at the first opportunity and in more than one place to do it.

That was still after Boston had done it. Same Boston team which eliminated LeBron's team twice before he left. Bringing up Chicago doesn't change that in the least. I don't think anyone knows(LeBron included) what he would have done if he'd made the finals in 08&2010(had they beat Orl). Maybe he leaves, maybe he doesn't but that's his right as an nba player. I don't understand why people want to keep things the same way they were in the 60's all the way for eternity. It's just stupid.

Well maybe seeing a player win mutiple championships with the team that drafted them seems more special and genuine than a guy choosing his teammates. My opinion, but like you said his choice. But dont call it stupid if people disagree with you.

[LockoutSeason]

That superteam Celtics were 3 guys without rings who were all trying to get one before they retired. That was the way ringchasing was traditionally done before Lebron created the new paradigm. (See Malone, Barkley, Payton etc.)

It’s really strange how Dwight Howard was able to beat this seemingly unbeatable superteam with no other all-stars next to him, Kobe was able to beat them with a Chris Bosh level sidekick next to him, but Lebron apologists continue to push the narrative that his only choice was to form an avengers team with three #1 superstars who were all in their prime ages, as if he was left with no other option besides that.

Huh? What an odd mis-remembering of history.

I do not rate 40 year old Malone joning the Lakers his final NBA season as anything similar to 31 year old KG (played 9 more seasons) or 32 year old Allen (played 7 more seasons) joining the Celtics.

Bosh was not a superstar, stop it lol

Barkley was 33 when he teamed up with Hakeem and Pippen. Payton was 35 when he joined up with Malone and Kobe/Shaq. Sounds like my memory is pretty good.


Ringchasing was something that players used to do once they got into their 30s without having one, not something that they did in their prime years.

When Barkley joined Hakeem, all of the contenders in the league were filled with players in their mid-30s. The league was old back then. It wasn’t a “past his prime” situation, he was competing against players the same age as him.

The Rockets were the first modern super team, Barkley just failed.

[Cavsfansince84]

Well maybe seeing a player win mutiple championships with the team that drafted them seems more special and genuine than a guy choosing his teammates. My opinion, but like you said his choice. But dont call it stupid if people disagree with you.

Wanting to see something happen as a fan and going about these crusades to diminish what they accomplish if they leave are not the same thing. I'm not calling anyone stupid simply because they disagree with me. What's stupid is acting like every nba player needs to follow certain guidelines or else their accomplishments should just be torn down and dismissed. People will say 'o he didn't wait long enough to leave' by using his age when he left knowing full well that he came into the league at 18. The ultimate goal is always to diminish LeBron and what he did on the court. That's the real purpose of all these 'he didn't do it organically enough yada yada' criticisms that so many people love to lob at him.

[Tim_Hardawayy]

The entire point of the post is that boston was full of aging/declining players and being injured is a large part of aging/declining. It’s part of the territory that comes with playing 15 years in the NBA. And it’s not exactly like he went back to being an elite player after returning from that injury.

OK but then don't we have to look at who the Heat were on the court and not on paper? And on the court, Wade was aging/declining unfortunately just as much as KG. Now he never missed an entire playoffs like KG did, but his effectiveness diminished rapidly, year 1 he was still a top 5 player in the league (arguably up to number 1 depending on the day/matchup), but year 2 he was more like a top 10-20 guy and top 5 on his best days, and years 3/4, basically after the 27 game winning streak where he pushed through a bone bruise, he started to decline more rapidly and played more like an average all-star with mediocre fit. I'd argue both squads in terms of health peaked in their first year, actually.

Also people conveniently forget about it now because of how LeBron took over and willed them to victory, but Bosh missed nearly all of the Pacers/Celtics series in 2012 and only came back for the Finals.

Again on paper I agree the Heat were supposed to be a super team. But in reality, partly due to diminishing returns because of fit, partly because of Wade's own personal decline, it didn't actually play out that way. That's why I think you saw the public perception of them sort of do a 180, they were completely hated in 2010/11 and I'd argue by year 3, while maybe not universally loved, people enjoyed seeing that team play. To me the Warriors of 2017/2018 are what people expected Miami would be, and they sort of killed the sport for a couple years, absolutely nobody enjoyed that team or that run.

That being said, I think a lot of people look at the Heat failing to meet expectations and use it as a criticism against LeBron. I'm no LeBron homer, I think he's a narcissist, I find Klutch's grasp on the league lame, I think he's corny as hell and his game isn't really that aesthetically appealing (its gotten better as he's gotten older but still). But other than an absolute choke job against the Mavericks in the Finals, there's not much criticism I can find that's fair for him during his Miami tenure, he was a complete professional. And in truth, if the Spurs didn't go on an absolute heater in 2014, I can see them even winning that one, because he was better that year than he's given credit for, people overblow his defense when he was clearly saving it for the playoffs but he was dominant when it counted. The truth is as much as people want to steal 2012 and 2013 from him ("they should have called a foul on Durant game 2", "Ray Allen saved him"), its not like the Heat couldn't have won it the bookend years either. The Mavs series easily could have gone differently and so could 2014 (I credit the Spurs but at the same time that was a generational 3-point shooting clinic, you could replay that series 100 times and I'll bet 99 times they don't shoot that well), and while you can blame LeBron fully for 2011, 2014 if the Spurs don't go nuclear he did more than enough for his team to win (I don't think Miami's supporting cast was as bad as its made out to be, here's the Spurs 3 point % by game in that series, 52%, 46%, 45%, 43%, 46%... and I'd have to probably go back and rewatch to confirm this, but watching that series live I'm pretty sure those percentages were higher early in the games, they only cooled off a bit once the leads started ballooning to 20+, it was insane and all the credit to the Spurs for hitting their shots but that series to me marked the true beginning of the small ball era and not the Warriors next year).

[Iwasawitness]

I provide stat after stat after stat, but you make up an alternate reality, so because you say so, Durant had it extremely easy despite having less open shots than any other player. He had an all time historical level finals. Does curry’s Center of gravity help? Of course, but you act like Durant was guarded like lebron on outside shots in the 2007 finals. The only debacle here is your memory of what you think happened in the 2017 finals.

Your stats are factoring in situations where Durant was guarded by people who had no impact on his shot due to his height and length, aka a great majority of his shots. Those are being considered "tightly guarded", even though they had no possible way of bothering Durant's shot. Next time, watch the series instead of using faulty statistics and relying on them blindly with no context and wasting everyone's time having to read it.

Oh jfc, so even when Durant is guarded it can’t count due to his height. You’re better than this man. It’s almost trump like where you ignore the facts and just stubbornly. With that logic no defender can guard Durant so he must be the goat.

But we will have to just take your blind fanboy word that Durant had the easiest job in finals history, despite getting less open shots than any other player during that finals, including LeBron. It’s even ridiculous to try and have this convo if you’re just going cover your ears and go lalalala despite every metric slapping you in the face.

Durant was god like in those finals, and not because he was being guarded by a JJ barea type. He was on fire and for the millionth had a historic level of offense. The cavs absolutely tried to gameplan for him. I would agree curry was game-planned for more but Durant ate LeBron alive when LeBron was guarding him, but hey if one of the “greatest defenders ever” can’t even limit Durant than maybe he is the goat.

Absolutely ridiculous

So you're counting situations where someone like Irving is guarding Durant from four feet as tight defense

THAT'S a trump like argument. But the thing is, you AREN'T better than this, this is the kind of straw grasping argument I expect from you.

[Johnny Bball]

You know Lebron's first choice was him and Wade playing with Rose in Chicago right? Never forms a super if Boston doesn't, lol. Only at the first opportunity and in more than one place to do it.

Guarantee you that plan came together after July 31st, 2007. But hey, whatever ya gotta tell yourself.

Just a narrator note, to the readers, Rose wasn't drafted until June 26th, 2008.

Interesting...

Guarantee it didn't (in general). Its well known Wade and James had talked for a long time and James was out no matter what. They colluded. But you make whatever pretzel you have to make in your head to defend your hero.

Lol, way to miss the point. If Boston doesn't form a super team, James STILL does at his first opportunity anyway. Its not like that team was winning after one and done. They weren't the best team to beat. Maybe stop making excuses.

[Franco]

The typical straw man as if there wasnt a honorable third way - leave Cleveland but dont go and build a superteam with two other top tier superstars and hide in the east and fill up with great role players.

He could have done a dozen other things people would have accepted, he could have won titles - a few less maybe but a lot more respectable. He chose the easiest possible way while still demanding people call him GOAT. But...GOATs do not need to take the easiest way.

Dirk, Giannis, Kawhi, Joker won without the weak stuff. When all the media manipulation and hype is over, it will be commonly accepted those people are more relevant than LeBron in the big picture.

The guy that said "either get me the MVP runner up or I'm going to the Lakers with LeBron and AD"? What the **** are you going on about

Kawhi won a title on a team noone would consider a superteam. I'm not referring to what he did before (winning with the spurs) or after (the all but remarkable Clippers chapter).

LeBron refused to EVER go to an AVERAGE team and attempt to win on his own, outside of his first Lakers season, where he completely failed to even make the post season. On top of that, he crowned himself the King and declared himself the GOAT. Shouldnt we hold him to higher standards than every one else, and not continue to make excuses for him?

Who the hell was calling the 2020 Lakers a superteam? And calling the Raptors an "average" team is **** nuts, that same team won almost 60 games the season prior, it's one of the stronger supporting casts around. Kawhi was a demon in the title run but you're talking straight out of your ass.

Also, not that it actually matters, but LeBron didn't give himself the nickname.

[Rust_Cohle]

Your stats are factoring in situations where Durant was guarded by people who had no impact on his shot due to his height and length, aka a great majority of his shots. Those are being considered "tightly guarded", even though they had no possible way of bothering Durant's shot. Next time, watch the series instead of using faulty statistics and relying on them blindly with no context and wasting everyone's time having to read it.

Oh jfc, so even when Durant is guarded it can’t count due to his height. You’re better than this man. It’s almost trump like where you ignore the facts and just stubbornly. With that logic no defender can guard Durant so he must be the goat.

But we will have to just take your blind fanboy word that Durant had the easiest job in finals history, despite getting less open shots than any other player during that finals, including LeBron. It’s even ridiculous to try and have this convo if you’re just going cover your ears and go lalalala despite every metric slapping you in the face.

Durant was god like in those finals, and not because he was being guarded by a JJ barea type. He was on fire and for the millionth had a historic level of offense. The cavs absolutely tried to gameplan for him. I would agree curry was game-planned for more but Durant ate LeBron alive when LeBron was guarding him, but hey if one of the “greatest defenders ever” can’t even limit Durant than maybe he is the goat.

Absolutely ridiculous

So you're counting situations where someone like Irving is guarding Durant from four feet as tight defense

THAT'S a trump like argument. But the thing is, you AREN'T better than this, this is the kind of straw grasping argument I expect from you.

Ah, so basically Durant has been unguarded his entire career. What a ridiculous criteria. If they had put Irving on Durant the whole series, I’d get it. You just can’t grasp the concept that Durant was guarded, and yes tightly. Switch yes and mismatches happen all the time, no one is immune to that. Durant just had an all time feels finals in spite of being guarded tightly.

[tribulations]

18 pages

Right? Bait thread title as well