Trae Young is Ridiculously Underrated

[tsherkin]

So again, specifics. What does a championship team with Trae as the best player look like? When you force yourself to actually put together a roster you realize how difficult (impossible) it actually is.

How would we know? This upcoming season is literally the first time they've put any kind of real talent next to him.

[manlisten]

So again, specifics. What does a championship team with Trae as the best player look like? When you force yourself to actually put together a roster you realize how difficult (impossible) it actually is.

How would we know? This upcoming season is literally the first time they've put any kind of real talent next to him.

Had a team with Dejounte, DeAndre, Collins, Bogdan, Capela and finished 8th. He's clearly not a #1 option. It's as simple as that.

[HMFFL]

So again, specifics. What does a championship team with Trae as the best player look like? When you force yourself to actually put together a roster you realize how difficult (impossible) it actually is.

How would we know? This upcoming season is literally the first time they've put any kind of real talent next to him.

Had a team with Dejounte, DeAndre, Collins, Bogdan, Capela and finished 8th. He's clearly not a #1 option. It's as simple as that.

That's correct.  #1 options shoot better, aren't turnover machines, and typically have the ability to dunk. Even his 2pt % reached a career low last season. He stopped using his floater as often and didn't focus on high percentage shots.  

The problem is it's always everybody else's fault and not Trae. He did mature some this past season, but then again, he wants to secure the max. 

With Lillard out of the East and Hali injured, Trae may make the all-star team without being an add on due to injury.

[kg01]

So again, specifics. What does a championship team with Trae as the best player look like? When you force yourself to actually put together a roster you realize how difficult (impossible) it actually is.

How would we know? This upcoming season is literally the first time they've put any kind of real talent next to him.

Had a team with Dejounte, DeAndre, Collins, Bogdan, Capela and finished 8th. He's clearly not a #1 option. It's as simple as that.

That's a non-play in core?

Yeah, ok.

[tsherkin]

Had a team with Dejounte, DeAndre, Collins, Bogdan, Capela and finished 8th. He's clearly not a #1 option. It's as simple as that.

And you think that's supposed to be an argument AGAINST Trae? C'mon.

Meantime, I think you're arguing something weird here. No one is really defending the notion that he's a tier-1 superstar; that'd be a strawman. But he can drive a team pretty effectively if he doesn't have just cast-off parts all around him. Dejounte Murray was nothing but an inefficient bomber, so he's not even worth mentioning. Capela is a limited play-finisher. Bogdan, apart from never being around because he was injured all the time, had a good half-season as he arrived in Atlanta and then proceeded to be an inefficient, weak offensive player the remainder of his time with the Hawks. Hunter's been injured most of his career, even if he was playing better these past two seasons (and even more so after the trade). Collins is another one on the injured-all-the-time train, and has worsened some with each passing year in terms of his offense.

Context remains relevant.

[tsherkin]

That's correct.  #1 options shoot better, aren't turnover machines, and typically have the ability to dunk. Even his 2pt % reached a career low last season. He stopped using his floater as often and didn't focus on high percentage shots.  

I imagine it's tiresome for him functioning as Atlas. The ability to dunk is irrelevant. Him being a "turnover machine" is hyperbole without context. His shot is an issue, and he's overextended as a volume scorer, but man... he's got an injury-riddled squad of minimal talent. Even MJ couldn't do much when the talent around him was insufficient, and Trae isn't that level of player. A little appreciation of the environment in which he's working would be appropriate.

[manlisten]

And you think that's supposed to be an argument AGAINST Trae? C'mon.

Meantime, I think you're arguing something weird here. No one is really defending the notion that he's a tier-1 superstar; that'd be a strawman. But he can drive a team pretty effectively if he doesn't have just cast-off parts all around him.

So what is the actual argument being made here? You and others keep pointing to his supporting cast. I'm arguing that you can't build a great supporting cast around a player like Trae because he's not a true superstar. Nobody has even attempted to do so on paper. We're all here just playing fantasy GM anyway. You have no restrictions, piece together a title team led by Trae Young. You can't do it. Dejounte Murray/Porzingis and cast-offs is the best you're going to come up with. This isn't greatness being held back, this is a decent player getting the expected results.

[threethehardway]

\

So what is the actual argument being made here? You and others keep pointing to his supporting cast. I'm arguing that you can't build a great supporting cast around a player like Trae because he's not a true superstar. Nobody has even attempted to do so on paper. We're all here just playing fantasy GM anyway. You have no restrictions, piece together a title team led by Trae Young. You can't do it. Dejounte Murray/Porzingis and cast-offs is the best you're going to come up with. This isn't greatness being held back, this is a decent player getting the expected results.

Trae Young has led an a team of cast offs to an ECF and multiple top 10 offenses. He's an all-star/all-nba caliber player. Not a superstar. There are only about 5 superstars in the league that can carry a team. There are only about 10 NBA players in NBA history that you can literally give them 4 average starters and they can carry them to the promise-land.

Trae Young isn't in that caliber. Most players playing today aren't in that caliber. Even someone like Kevin Durant isn't in that caliber despite being the best scorer in his generation.

You are just arguing something that nobody has ever argued. You are arguing against yourself and your own logic. I don't even know what your point is.

I wouldn't even consider anybody on he ever played with to be good players. They are average players. I don't even consider most players in the NBA to be on the level of good. They are average and perform a function on a team for good players to showcase their skillset.

Trae Young by himself, isn't a championship-level player. Trae Young isn't someone you build around. Trae Young never was someone that you build around. He's too small, small players are not players you construct championship teams with them as the focal point. Trae Young is a player you get as a cherry on top. You get an All-NBA wing and you get them a point guard like Trae Young to run the team. You get an All-NBA center and you get them a point guard like Trae Young to get them the ball.

Trae Young, by himself, just so happens to be good enough of a floor raiser on offense so that his team's are competitive enough not to be terrible. His front office don't want to tank. His front office don't care about winning games. So Trae is stuck with a crappy organization and a multiple seasons of subpar rosters.

You put Trae Young on the Spurs and it's a championship caliber offense overnight. Not too many players in the league can do that.

[tsherkin]

[
So what is the actual argument being made here? You and others keep pointing to his supporting cast. I'm arguing that you can't build a great supporting cast around a player like Trae because he's not a true superstar.

I agree he isn't a superstar. I've said as much repeatedly. But Atlanta has not done a good job putting any kind of meaningful supporting cast around him, so judging him on team results is a failure of basic appreciation for context. Between health issues and improper pieces, they've mostly exceeded my expectations, to be honest.

You have no restrictions, piece together a title team led by Trae Young. You can't do it.

That's a bold statement. He literally hasn't played with another All-Star talent before. I'd be looking for him to do that before riffing too hard on his inability to perform. He's had a bunch of league-average (or worse) scorers around him, and hasn't had a major defensive big. His team hasn't had amazing spacing, and you're acting like you know everything there is about his player archetype, which I find odd.

Dejounte Murray/Porzingis and cast-offs is the best you're going to come up with.

No it isn't. Murray isn't very good, so he's not even worth discussing. He's a replaceable scoring threat of little remark, nothing more.

Porzingis, if healthy, is by a LONGSHOT the best player Trae has had alongside him in Atlanta. That tells you basically everything you need to know about what those teams should have been doing. We'll see what they look like this year, but it's really frustrating watching people judge a player for team performance while he's had little to work with. It's like when people were saying foolish, non-sensical things about Lebron during his first run in Cleveland. Not that Trae is at that level, of course, but same concept.

[manlisten]

You have no restrictions, piece together a title team led by Trae Young. You can't do it.

That's a bold statement. He literally hasn't played with another All-Star talent before. I'd be looking for him to do that before riffing too hard on his inability to perform. He's had a bunch of league-average (or worse) scorers around him, and hasn't had a major defensive big. His team hasn't had amazing spacing, and you're acting like you know everything there is about his player archetype, which I find odd.

PG - Trae Young
SG -
SF -
PF -
C -

Fill in the blanks. That's all I'm asking. Build the team that contends for a championship. The only rule is that nobody else can be better than Trae. THAT'S the reason his supporting casts haven't been outstanding. Still waiting on you or anyone else to complete this straightforward exercise.

[Ball4life32]

\

So what is the actual argument being made here? You and others keep pointing to his supporting cast. I'm arguing that you can't build a great supporting cast around a player like Trae because he's not a true superstar. Nobody has even attempted to do so on paper. We're all here just playing fantasy GM anyway. You have no restrictions, piece together a title team led by Trae Young. You can't do it. Dejounte Murray/Porzingis and cast-offs is the best you're going to come up with. This isn't greatness being held back, this is a decent player getting the expected results.

Trae Young has led an a team of cast offs to an ECF and multiple top 10 offenses. He's an all-star/all-nba caliber player. Not a superstar. There are only about 5 superstars in the league that can carry a team. There are only about 10 NBA players in NBA history that you can literally give them 4 average starters and they can carry them to the promise-land.

Trae Young isn't in that caliber. Most players playing today aren't in that caliber. Even someone like Kevin Durant isn't in that caliber despite being the best scorer in his generation.

You are just arguing something that nobody has ever argued. You are arguing against yourself and your own logic. I don't even know what your point is.

I wouldn't even consider anybody on he ever played with to be good players. They are average players. I don't even consider most players in the NBA to be on the level of good. They are average and perform a function on a team for good players to showcase their skillset.

Trae Young by himself, isn't a championship-level player. Trae Young isn't someone you build around. Trae Young never was someone that you build around. He's too small, small players are not players you construct championship teams with them as the focal point. Trae Young is a player you get as a cherry on top. You get an All-NBA wing and you get them a point guard like Trae Young to run the team. You get an All-NBA center and you get them a point guard like Trae Young to get them the ball.

Trae Young, by himself, just so happens to be good enough of a floor raiser on offense so that his team's are competitive enough not to be terrible. His front office don't want to tank. His front office don't care about winning games. So Trae is stuck with a crappy organization and a multiple seasons of subpar rosters.

You put Trae Young on the Spurs and it's a championship caliber offense overnight. Not too many players in the league can do that.

To be fair Hawks can’t tank bc they don’t have their own picks. (Which is fine bc they have two pelicans/bucks picks next 2 yrs) Also the Hawks roster isn’t subpar anymore and that’s with Trae being the oldest starter so we’ll see how things look going forward. Hawks have had injuries around Trae too that not a lot talk about it. Need them to stay fully healthy….team was looking good until Jalen Johnson went down last yr

[FluLikeSymptoms]

Trae gives both teams a viable offence. If he’s on the court they’re .500 plus or minus shooting luck.

[tsherkin]

THAT'S the reason his supporting casts haven't been outstanding.

How did you come to THAT conclusion?

[Jamaaliver]

[threethehardway]

PG - Trae Young
SG -
SF -
PF -
C -

Fill in the blanks. That's all I'm asking. Build the team that contends for a championship. The only rule is that nobody else can be better than Trae. THAT'S the reason his supporting casts haven't been outstanding. Still waiting on you or anyone else to complete this straightforward exercise.

Lol, you are so silly.

So people tell you, nobody thinks Trae Young can be the end all be all best player on a championship team and then you say, build a championship level team with Trae Young being the best player.

What we are telling you is that The Hawks decided that Trae Young is their best player. Trae didn't decide that for himself. Nobody said, "Trae is should be the best player on the Hawks and The Hawks should build around him."

You are literally arguing your own position with yourself.

You haven't even addressed any argument but your own and can't even recognize that people are agreeing with you because you want to reinforce the obvious.

You: "Trae Young can't be the best player on a championship team, thus he's bad because he can't lead Dejounte Murray and scraps to the promise land."

Tsherkin: "Trae isn't a superstar but he hasn't played with good players. He is a good offensive player but he hasn't been given a fair chance to be a on good roster."

You: "BUILD A TEAM WITH TRAE YOUNG AS A THE BEST PLAYER."

If we agree that Trae Young isn't a superstar and superstar players are required to win championship...then how can you build a championship level team with Trae Young as the best player.

Anyway, a championship level team with no player clearly better than Trae Young

Trae Young
Derrick White
Trey Murphy
Jalen Johnson
Ivan Zubac

[threethehardway]

To be fair Hawks can’t tank bc they don’t have their own picks. (Which is fine bc they have two pelicans/bucks picks next 2 yrs) Also the Hawks roster isn’t subpar anymore and that’s with Trae being the oldest starter so we’ll see how things look going forward. Hawks have had injuries around Trae too that not a lot talk about it. Need them to stay fully healthy….team was looking good until Jalen Johnson went down last yr

The Hawks should've been tanking the entire time before they even made the Dejounte Murray trade. That's my point.

The Hawks seriously thought that the ECF Team was good enough to put money and time into and missed out on getting franchise changing talent.

They should've been tanking until 2023 at least. Should've tanked for Cade and Paolo. Should've been tanking for Wemby.

The team is poorly ran. Your best player can't be 6'1 and 180 pounds if you expect to compete for championships.

Even the current squad with Porzingis isn't good. A washed up Porzingis isn't a find. Should've gotten Porzingis 3 years ago.

The Hawks are beyond the curve on teambuilding and asset management and it's by choice.

The team didn't look good last year either with Jalen Johnson. The team couldn't put the ball in the basket without Trae on the court. Trae babysat the young guys all last season playing on a bum Achilles and the organization should be thankful he didn't tear an Achilles. He probably shouldn't even played last season.

The Hawks is a bad organization, point blank. It's a prime example of an organization that doesn't want to win and rather collect revshare from successful teams.

[Ball4life32]

To be fair Hawks can’t tank bc they don’t have their own picks. (Which is fine bc they have two pelicans/bucks picks next 2 yrs) Also the Hawks roster isn’t subpar anymore and that’s with Trae being the oldest starter so we’ll see how things look going forward. Hawks have had injuries around Trae too that not a lot talk about it. Need them to stay fully healthy….team was looking good until Jalen Johnson went down last yr

The Hawks should've been tanking the entire time before they even made the Dejounte Murray trade. That's my point.

The Hawks seriously thought that the ECF Team was good enough to put money and time into and missed out on getting franchise changing talent.

They should've been tanking until 2023 at least. Should've tanked for Cade and Paolo. Should've been tanking for Wemby.

The team is poorly ran. Your best player can't be 6'1 and 180 pounds and expect to compete for championships.

Even the current squad with Porzingis isn't good. A washed up Porzingis isn't a find. Should've gotten Porzingis 3 years ago.

The Hawks are beyond the curve on teambuilding and asset management and it's by choice.

The team didn't look good last year either with Jalen Johnson. The team couldn't put the ball in the basket without Trae on the court. Trae babysat the young guys all last season playing on a bum Achilles and the organization should be thankful he didn't tear an Achilles. He probably shouldn't even played last season.

The Hawks is a bad organization, point blank. It's a prime example of an organization that doesn't want to win and rather collect revshare from successful teams.

The last 3 #1 picks are by teams that didn't even tank outside of SA who had what the 8th worst record when they got Wemby?

Trae wanted to win after averaging 30/9 in year 2 on 60 ts% and then he took his team to the ECF in is 3rd year...name me all these great teams tanking for 5+ years minimum? Paolo isn't some elite winning player at all and Cade is a terrible fit next to Trae btw.

Hawks were 18-15 before Jalen Johnson went down the first time.....7-2 vs the top of the East. Trae is their oldest starter at 26 years old so all the young guys can cleary keep improving on top of what they added on + I still hope/believe Trae if healthy can get back to where he was a cpl yrs ago and he’s just entering his prime.

Hawks supposed to be backup PG Kobe Bufkin missed basically the whole season so not surprised they didn't look good without Trae.

Porzingis 20/7/2, 62 ts%, +4.7 BPM last year is washed? What? Stay healthy consistently? Sure. But he clearly isn't washed.

Hawks are stacked with young talent around Trae and have potential premium picks coming (and look it that they don't have to tank)....hawks are fine with that then tanking for 5+ years which I don’t see any goods teams going. Not to mention thinking young stars would be ok tanking for 5+ years at the least.

[threethehardway]

The last 3 #1 picks are by teams that didn't even tank outside of SA who had what the 8th worst record when they got Wemby?

Trae wanted to win and he took his team to the ECF in is 3rd year....pretty dumb to claim hawks should have tanked like that guarantees some franchise changing talent. Clearly it doesn't. And Paolo isn't some elite winning player at all and Cade is a terrible fit next to Trae.

Hawks were 18-15 before Jalen Johnson went down the first time.....7-2 vs the top of the East. Trae is their oldest starter at 26 years old so all the young guys can cleary keep improving. Hawks supposed to be backup PG Kobe Bufkin missed basically the whole season so not surprised they didn't look good without Trae btw.

Porzingis 20/7/2, 62 ts%, +4.7 BPM last year is washed? What? Stay healthy consistently? Sure. But he clearly isn't washed.

Hawks are stacked with young talent around Trae and have potential premium picks coming (and look it that they don't have to tank)....hawks are fine with that then your hypotheticals claiming they don't want to win because they didn't tank like that for sure leads to success not to mention ignoring that young star players are just going to be ok sucking/tanking every year.

The Hawks aren't stacked with young talent.

This is my point, this is why NBA fans are routinely tricked by the promise of "young talent" and the "organization getting on the right track".

You tank because it is the best chance to build a team for the cheap. You tank because you get a chance to do proper asset management before you go all in on a roster for the next 10 years.

Look at the war chest the Celtics assembled to prolong their run. Look at the war chest that the OKC has assembled. You tank because that's the only way in the NBA you can properly build up enough capital to go on a prolong championship run.

The Hawks actually had the chance of getting the elite franchise changing player, traded Luka for a bunch of prospects and only Trae worked out. Then proceeded to fake launch at championship contention.

Then went and got DJM and found out that maybe, just maybe, you actually have to go through the process of building a war chest, building a roster and reversed course. You don't go grab the late night box score watcher's all-star.

The Hawks aren't stacked with young talented players. They have one. That's Jalen Johnson and he needs to be babysat by Trae to be successful. He isn't able to create his own shot. The rest are just average or below average or unknown.

Porzingis is washed. He accepted that he will never be the guy, and he rather be on a stacked team where all he has to do is dunk, defend and launch threes. The Celtics realized he isn't worth the training table he spends most of his time on and traded him.

Now he gets to cash out by being the "championship pedigree" vet and play 40 games a year. You think he's going to have as easy as a time he did with the Celtics? I doubt it. That Celtic's team was the perfect basketball environment for him.

The second apron is a reason for the Hawks to do the smart thing and let Trae Young go.

Instead, they will probably pay him a bit under what he is worth and continue the charade.

[wco81]

[

Spoiler:

img]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gx3dX9KbsAI_smq?format=jpg&name=large[/img]

Hawks were 40-42 and lost both play-in games.

Trae played and started 76 of 82 regular season games. What was their record in those games?

More importantly, what are Trae's on/off numbers, both in the regular and postseason?

Trae has averaged 25.3 PPG and 9.8 APG on 43.3/35.2/87.3 shooting in 7 seasons, 483 games. It appears Hawks have won 250 of those 483 games in those 7 seasons, which includes the pandemic 2019-20 and 2021-21 seasons when teams didn't play the full 82 games.

His postseason numbers, which apparently don't include play-in games are 26.4 PPG and 9.0 APG on 40.2/29.7/85.2 shooting in 27 playoffs games in 3 postseasons. Hawks record in those post season games is 13-16 or a 2-3 series record.

The bulk numbers in the regular season are good, though efficiency is only held up by a relatively high FT rate. But obviously his offense hasn't been elite enough for better records in both regular and post-seasons and in general, offense alone isn't enough to win playoffs games.

Maybe all the young athletic wings whom the Hawks have acquired in the last couple of seasons will change their fortunes and the nature of the team, maybe try to win with a top 10 defense.

[Ball4life32]

The last 3 #1 picks are by teams that didn't even tank outside of SA who had what the 8th worst record when they got Wemby?

Trae wanted to win and he took his team to the ECF in is 3rd year....pretty dumb to claim hawks should have tanked like that guarantees some franchise changing talent. Clearly it doesn't. And Paolo isn't some elite winning player at all and Cade is a terrible fit next to Trae.

Hawks were 18-15 before Jalen Johnson went down the first time.....7-2 vs the top of the East. Trae is their oldest starter at 26 years old so all the young guys can cleary keep improving. Hawks supposed to be backup PG Kobe Bufkin missed basically the whole season so not surprised they didn't look good without Trae btw.

Porzingis 20/7/2, 62 ts%, +4.7 BPM last year is washed? What? Stay healthy consistently? Sure. But he clearly isn't washed.

Hawks are stacked with young talent around Trae and have potential premium picks coming (and look it that they don't have to tank)....hawks are fine with that then your hypotheticals claiming they don't want to win because they didn't tank like that for sure leads to success not to mention ignoring that young star players are just going to be ok sucking/tanking every year.

The Hawks aren't stacked with young talent.

This is my point, this is why NBA fans are routinely tricked by the promise of "young talent" and the "organization getting on the right track".

You tank because it is the best chance to build a team for the cheap. You tank because you get a chance to do proper asset management before you go all in on a roster for the next 10 years.

Look at the war chest the Celtics assembled to prolong their run. Look at the war chest that the OKC has assembled. You tank because that's the only way in the NBA you can properly build up enough capital to go on a prolong championship run.

The Hawks actually had the chance of getting the elite franchise changing player, traded Luka for a bunch of prospects and only Trae worked ou. Then proceeded to fake launch at championship contention.

Then went and got DJM and found out that maybe, just maybe, you actually have to go through the process of building a war chest, building a roster and reversed course. You don't go grab the late night box score watcher's all-star.

The Hawks aren't stacked with young talented players. They have one. That's Jalen Johnson and he needs to be babysat by Trae to be successful. He isn't able to create his own shot. The rest are just average or below average or unknown.

Porzingis is washed. He accepted that he will never be the guy, and he rather be on a stacked team where all he has to do is dunk, defend and launch threes. The Celtics realized he isn't worth the training table he spends most of his time on and traded him.

Now he gets to cash out by being the "championship pedigree" vet and play 40 games a year. You think he's going to have as easy as a time he did with the Celtics? I doubt it. That Celtic's team was the perfect basketball environment for him.

The second apron is a reason for the Hawks to do the smart thing and let Trae Young go.

Instead, they will probably pay him a bit under what he is worth and continue the charade.

Celtics got Brown and Tatum from their Brooklyn picks. OKC got their best player SGA through a trade and own a bunch of picks through other teams. (hawks don't have as many picks but they do have 3 potential lottery picks 3 drafts in row via Kings/Pelicans/Bucks) btw.

Dyson Daniels isn't average or below average... Risacher put up 14.8 ppg on 51/41 splits in less than 25 mpg in his last 45 games at 19/20 yrs old. (#1 pick they got after making the play-in not even tanking)

Okongwu 15/10/3 with +3 bpm as a starter (looks much better as a starter)

Yes some are young, inconsistent and need to continue improving but hawks cleary have more young talent than Jalen Johnson.

And that makes Porzingis washed how? He's not washed when he's on the court. I'd have him off the bench like they did Hunter last year and see if it can help him stay healthy.

And I'm not saying you can't tank btw...but saying hawks are a bad organization and don't care about winning because they didn't tank until 2023 at minimum is wild. (5 years after Trae was drafted) Where Hawks screwed up is the Dejounte trade but have made up for getting Dyson+ and things look more promising looking ahead.