Shai vs Harden vs Westbrook vs Paul

[XTC]

Name + Year
Points/Rebounds/Assists/Steals/Blocks
Shooting Splits
True Shooting Percentage
PER/Winshares/WS48/BPM/VORP
+/-

Shai Gilgeous-Alexander 2025
32.7/5.0/6.4/1.7/1.0
51.9/37.5/89.8
TS - 63.7%
30.7/16.7/.309/11.5/8.9
+11.1

James Harden 2019
36.1/6.6/7.5/2.0/0.7
44.2/36.8/87.9
TS - 61.6%
30.6/15.2/.254/11.0/9.3
+5.5

Russell Westbrook 2017
31.6/10.7/10.4/1.6/0.4
42.5/34.3/84.5
TS - 55.4%
30.6/13.0/.224/11.1/9.3
+12.5

Chris Paul 2009
22.8/5.5/11.0/2.8/0.1
50.3/36.4/86.8
TS - 59.9%
30.0/18.3/.292/11.0/9.9
+19.6

Regular season only. Stats posted are just a reference, use whatever argument you want. I used my judgement on what their peak season, if you believe they peaked higher in another season, you can use that season. Which player do you believe peaked the highest?

[Narigo]

Shai
Paul
Harden
Westbrook

[One_and_Done]

Shai
CP3

Harden

Westbrook

[Caneman786]

Shai just had the highest 1-year RAPM ever.

I'm the biggest CP3 fan you'd find and I'm taking Shai.

[Matt15]

1.Shai
2.CP3
3.Harden
4.Westbrook

[ShotCreator]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

[Whopper_Sr]

CP3
SGA/Harden
Westbrook

[wafflzgod]

CP3
Shai
Harden

Westbrook

[falcolombardi]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

Lmao

[LukaTheGOAT]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

[TheGOATRises007]

If it's purely RS

Shai
Harden
Paul
Westbrook

[ShotCreator]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

[falcolombardi]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

"no rim pressure" (league leader in drives with elite inside efficiency) "no shooting threat" (all time level mid range scoring) and "methodical without method" (his team lead ball handler, passer, scorer with low turnovers) i dont know which part of your comments i find more wrong here


On the metrics side

Do you think the better than jokic advanced metrics/RAPM and outlier on court net rating came by sheer luck?

This is not some funny mike conley outlier impact metrics year either, but rather a guy whose team relied completely on offensively as they struggled to score, playmake, handle the ball or even shot open jumpers all playoffs long

and lapped his own co stars and the whole league with how dominant his team was when he was on the court (with okc with shai + anyone being comparable to the peak warriors years when they had curry/draymond and/or durant together)

[LukaTheGOAT]

Shai is the worst here, easily, if his last playoff run is his true peak.

Borderline zero substance to his game, relatively speaking of course.

Not an elite rim pressure threat, not an elite shooting threat, off-ball, not an elite playmaker in any way.

A far cry from his RS level.

His defense also slumped with more mileage, to the points where he was actively attacked in the finals.


His playoff run was Kyrie level. Exact same pressure and/or lack thereof, except Kyrie at least brings a genuine elite shooting threat to his over dribbling and underpassing.

In how defenses would approach defending any these guys at peak, scheming for SGA is a breeze. You get let off the hook on every level.

09 or 14 Paul
20 Harden
17 WB
25 Shai

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

I guess I kind of find Brunson an elite penetrator/rim-pressure guy to be fair, so that is a point of disagreement. Brunson was great this postseason and his performance against the Pacers on offense was probably better than Shai's.

On the CP3 comparison, I think CP3 is better but Shai is having to score much than CP3, which is a huge caveat. Shai is drawing significantly more freethrows and because of his aggression, is probably causing teams to overly scheme for his style. CP3 can get you 23 on +7 or so, and teams will live with that. With Shai, he might be more like slightly around 30 on slightly above average efficiency, and thats with teams throwing hard hedges and shading more than anything CP3 dealt with. I think Shai forced the issue more.

Regarding how Shai compares to some of these other guys, I would just say that Harden has been neutered before with teams taking away the rim and 3, which might be a more straightforward strategy than dealing with Shai's arsenal. Harden didn't really showcase during his peak scoring years sans 2020, the willingness to go to that floater/middy.

[ShotCreator]

How is Shai not an elite rim pressure guy? Also, his midrange shooting more than lived up to the billing, even though his 3pt shooting did slump some in the PS.

Shia’s current drives and playmaking stats are at Jalen Brusons’s level. Nearly identical across the board. That is not elite in the 2010’s.

Westbrook and Harden’s style of driving and passing is way more hectic for a defense. Much more explosive, and they are much better lob and skip passers.

Even when WB missed(which he did a lot), he increased the OREB rate a ton because he occupied help defenders much more than Shai.

And he generated shots on passing at nearly twice the rate on drives.

Shai is methodical, but without an actual method. He plays at CP3 pace but his shooting number from all over are much lower and his vision is much worse. The defense can see all his actions coming a mile away. There was just no serious pressure from anywhere. Denver was happy leaving him to iso and timing random doubles.

If any of these guards were defended how Shai was against Denver the output would’ve been astronomical.

Harden butchered LA and he had mediocre shooting around him while getting doubled from behind the 3P line. That 2020 Lakers defense was by far better than anything Shai faced, and Harden topped any of his series while having far worse help.

It’s an entirely different level he’s being compared to here.

Peak Harden’s shooting threat was much scarier than Shai’s even without a mid-range game for the most part.

By all indications, Jalen Brunson was at least as dominant as Shai offensively this past playoff run.

I can’t say a guy operating at that level is even close to these other guys.


And defensively, his edge is minor, if it’s there at all. I don’t think he was better defender than CP3 at all, but Harden is closer the people would think but that’s another discussion entirely.

"no rim pressure" (league leader in drives with elite inside efficiency) "no shooting threat" (all time level mid range scoring) and "methodical without method" (his team lead ball handler, passer, scorer with low turnovers) i dont know which part of your comments i find more wrong here


On the metrics side

Do you think the better than jokic advanced metrics/RAPM and outlier on court net rating came by sheer luck?

This is not some funny mike conley outlier impact metrics year either, but rather a guy whose team relied completely on offensively as they struggled to score, playmake, handle the ball or even shot open jumpers all playoffs long

and lapped his own co stars and the whole league with how dominant his team was when he was on the court (with okc with shai + anyone being comparable to the peak warriors years when they had curry/draymond and/or durant together)

I mean, you're talking regular season play. I'm talking, when teams actually scheme and focused in the playoffs, Shai took a huge step down in his past run.

OKC's offense fell off a cliff and they couldn't even manage league average offense on the road. That is almost all because of the drop off from Shai. Their defense held up. Their offense sputtered. Shai was not creating high quality shots for guys with this predictable play style.

Shai is visibly and empirically easy to scheme against compared to these guys.

In the playoffs, he brought minimal pressure from anywhere. A slow-paced driving style with no respectable shooting threat beyond the line and minimal pressure from mid-range. You have to understand how good you have to shoot from mid-range to really demand high level pressure from there. KD, Kawhi, and CP3 have runs shooting ~60% from 10 ft to 3, and that's in league's with much lower oRTGs. That's the level you need to operate at if you're not an absolute animal at creating shots at the rim or high volume playmaking in the paint.

Shai's volume and efficiency has to be sky high to dominate with his style because when defenses really focus in, he's not particularly special from anywhere. Harden and Shai are probably even on finishing ability, but Harden's first step was much better than his. His style of driving was way more urgent for a defense and his passing is a tier above. So much so his impact is higher with a lot more TOVs and no mid-range game to speak of, in the playoffs.

Shai's PS impact metrics were putrid compared to his RS numbers. His PS RAPTOR and EPM at the least, were basically half of what they were in the RS. Somebody has to account for that in this comparison. His series against Denver most showed me his limitations because it was his best series and Denver's style of defending him was still gimmicky and they nearly won for it.

Why did a 35 year old Chris Paul have a better series against Denver than Shai did? Why did 2023 Booker have a much, much better series than Shai did against them? Against a much better version of Denver, with a much worse team around him.

Actually imagine what an athletic peak Westbrook would do to a Jokic-led(and I really mean led, he was their best defender in all years except 2023 because of Bruce Brown) defense. Imagine what 2020 Harden would do, if a Caruso/LeBron/Davis/Green rotation needed spam doubles just to let him dominate anyway.

I also want to add how much chemistry the other guards would have with a big like Holmgren. A true threat at the rim and a floor spacer. This is a thing only impact metrics would pick up on. The complete lack of flow and chemistry in OKC's offense led by Shai. CP3 couldn't isolate for years because of BG and Jordan clogging the lane, and he still crushed. He had his best isolation numbers in Houston at 33. At 27, when he had his elite speed, and he's on a team like 2025 OKC with all the spacing? Forget about it. It would be comical. Same for Harden.

You put any of these guards in their peaks on OKC in place of Shai and they would sweep Denver and dominate Indiana. CP3 and Harden especially.

This is the way I think of this comparison.

[falcolombardi]

I mean, you're talking regular season play. I'm talking, when teams actually scheme and focused in the playoffs, Shai took a huge step down in his past run.

Shai regular season was truly historically great, getting worsr than that is not nearly as damning as you make it sound

OKC's offense fell off a cliff

1- cavs 123.5 (137 vs miami, 113 vs indiana)
2- Lac 115.6
3- okc 115.3
4- indy 115.2
5- min 114.6
6- bos 114.4
7- nyk 113.3
8- mke 112.2
9- hou 112.1
10 den 110.1

That is almost all because of the drop off from Shai. Their defense held up. Their offense sputtered. Shai was not creating high quality shots for guys with this predictable play style.

Not quite true, shai created plenty of wide open shots directly by attacking or by getting doubled

And there is somethingh odd about using predictable as a criticism in relation to harden of all people.

Predictable play style doesnt mean less effective when you can score at all 3 levels, dribble through pressure and recognizing passing opportunities which shai (or harden or the also methodical paul do)

Shai is visibly and empirically easy to scheme against compared to these guys.

So easy to scheme against that it just won a ring with a top end playoffs offense in spite of awful across the board teammate shooting?

In the playoffs, he brought minimal pressure from anywhere

.

What is even your idea of pressure here?

The guy scoring 30+ over and over and forcing doubles and help D and forcing fouling?
The guy who leads the league in drives to the rim?

You have to understand how good you have to shoot from mid-range to really demand high level pressure from there.

I do because i have seen it all year long in okc, rival teams through the playoffs clearly didnt get the memo they dont need to bother with defending against shai midrange or drives

That's the level you need to operate at if you're not an absolute animal at creating shots at the rim

Famously allergic to the rim and paint shai

He's not particularly special from anywhere.

64% from 0-3 feet is not special at his volume as a slasher + a strong ft rate?

Shooting 49% from 3-10 feet? 50% from 10-16? All of these in last year playoffs

Shai's PS impact metrics were putrid compared to his RS numbers. His PS RAPTOR and EPM at the least, were basically half of what they were in the RS

.

He fell off from the league best EPM in regular season to the league best EPM in the playoffs?

This is not the damning argument you are acting like it is

His series against Denver most showed me his limitations because it was his best series and Denver's style of defending him was still gimmicky and they nearly won for it.

But you compare it later to booker 23 series where he played his best career series vs denver but actually lost instead?

Actually imagine what an athletic peak Westbrook would do to a Jokic-led(and I really mean led, he was their best defender in all years except 2023 because of Bruce Brown) defense.

I am literally a okc fan, i have seen prime athletic westbrook be painfully sonned by ricky rubio

I have seen and followed westbrook and defended him here plenty of times, he was great but not some lebron-like unfallible player

Imagine what 2020 Harden would do, if a Caruso/LeBron/Davis/Green rotation needed spam doubles just to let him dominate anyway.

Now you dont care he lost in 5? But do care than shai needed 7 to win vs denver?

You put any of these guards in their peaks on OKC in place of Shai and they would sweep Denver and dominate Indiana. CP3 and Harden especially

And you know this because?

[ShotCreator]

Shai regular season was truly historically great, getting worsr than that is not nearly as damning as you make it sound



1- cavs 123.5 (137 vs miami, 113 vs indiana)
2- Lac 115.6
3- okc 115.3
4- indy 115.2
5- min 114.6
6- bos 114.4
7- nyk 113.3
8- mke 112.2
9- hou 112.1
10 den 110.1




Not quite true, shai created plenty of wide open shots directly by attacking or by getting doubled

And there is somethingh odd about using predictable as a criticism in relation to harden of all people.

Predictable play style doesnt mean less effective when you can score at all 3 levels, dribble through pressure and recognizing passing opportunities which shai (or harden or the also methodical paul do)



So easy to scheme against that it just won a ring with a top end playoffs offense in spite of awful across the board teammate shooting?

.

What is even your idea of pressure here?

The guy scoring 30+ over and over and forcing doubles and help D and forcing fouling?
The guy who leads the league in drives to the rim?




I do because i have seen it all year long in okc, rival teams through the playoffs clearly didnt get the memo they dont need to bother with defending against shai midrange or drives



Famously allergic to the rim and paint shai




64% from 0-3 feet is not special at his volume as a slasher + a strong ft rate?

Shooting 49% from 3-10 feet? 50% from 10-16? All of these in last year playoffs

.

He fell off from the league best EPM in regular season to the league best EPM in the playoffs?

This is not the damning argument you are acting like it is



But you compare it later to booker 23 series where he played his best career series vs denver but actually lost instead?



I am literally a okc fan, i have seen prime athletic westbrook be painfully sonned by ricky rubio

I have seen and followed westbrook and defended him here plenty of times, he was great but not some lebron-like unfallible player



Now you dont care he lost in 5? But do care than shai needed 7 to win vs denver?



And you know this because?

I almost feel bad saying all this to a real OKC fan after a title like this. This really shouldn't be your battle in a weird way.

I was just high on Shai, but something hit me in the 25 playoffs and I'm just not impressed anymore. Not after what I saw. I've just never seen any of the other 3 guards in such stagnant circumstances, even when completely outmatched, horribly mismatched rosters that didn't amplify their strengths, they still brought more visible pressure than what Shai did.

I don't think I explained myself that well but I don't feel like going on. Time will tell. Time usually exposes stuff like this. I'm in the camp that OKC title window is as long as Holmgren allows it to be at this current rate. Shai and Williams led offense is completely beatable and the NBA adjusted to the peak Warriors within a season. OKC will have real trouble with this Shai-led offense to the point where I won't have to argue about this, in my opinion.

But, I will say, please do not pretend 2018 Westbrook was his peak. That is part of what made me not want to keep going on about this. Because, I stopped and thought, wtf would make any fan, let alone an OKC fan say something like that other than some real misled passion for the current team. To which I say, enjoy the title. But no, to most of what you said. I don't accept the idea that OKC's drop off was normal or their close series with Indiana and Denver was acceptable.

Harden and Westbrook occupied help defenders in droves on their drives. And caused chaotic lose-lose scenarios in the heads of defenders guarding shooters and cutters. CP3 did as well but with a more Shai-like style but still with a great first step and ability to create tons of separation at will.

Shai just doesn't do that.

The 2010's guards were GOOD. Probably better than most think.



And I also want to say, I'm such a , because XTC specifically said regular season only and I just realized that. So yeah, good talk.