Chris Bosh's tenure in Toronto has become supremely underrated

[manlisten]

Best all around player: Toronto Bosh, Memphis Pau or Phoenix Ayton?

[Stan]

7 years
2 playoff appearances
1 winning season
3 playoff wins

And this was in the Eastern conference to boot. I genuinely want OP to tell me what is under appreciated about this run?

Real talk, if Bosh doesn’t go to Miami, he’s probably not a HOFer and barely even remembered like Elton Brand or Zach Randolph.

Ironically he got so much undeserved hype due to joining Miami. The guy didn’t make as much as an All-NBA 3rd team his last 3 years in Toronto and he was getting the superstar label.

[ballzboyee]

Metric benchmarks befoe joining the Heat

PER
----

Top 20 PER x 4

Top 10 PER x 2

Top 5 PER x 1

Scoring per 100 poss.
----
Top 10 x 2
Top 20 x 5

All-stars x 4
MVP voting top 7 and 12

All-NBA x 1

Peak 4-year RAPM
-----
Chris Bosh... 4.2, 3.7, 3.5

Compares with:
----
Anthony Davis... 3.9, 3.9, 3.0

Pau Gasol... 3.1, 3.1, 3.0

Karl-Anthony Towns... 4.8, 4.4, 3.7

Pascal Siakam... 4.2, 4.2, 4.1

Bosh is not Jokic, Embiid, or Giannis obviously. But he's clearly in that next tier of big men along with guys like AD and Towns. If he were in the league today he would still be an all-star level player similar to them, I suspect. He's hard to judge because he changed his play style and body to fit in asa glue guy/stretch 4 in Miami before he even hit his prime production years.

Interesting stats On +/- RS in Miami during championship window:
Lebron +10.4 per 100 poss.
Bosh +10.3 per 100 poss.
Wade +9.9 per 100 poss.

Very good player. He's 50 million per year cap hit in today's league.

[Duffman100]

lol Bosh wasn't a stat padder, that's ridiculous.

Bosh dragged those Toronto teams by their ankles into the playoffs. The teams lacked talent outside of Bosh. Imagine having to play next to Bargnani. His defense wasn't as good as it could be because his usage was so high.

That being said, I think he was rated pretty much the way he should be. Solid All Star, fringe All NBAer and very fringe MVP who was realistically a 2nd or 3rd option being asked to be a 1st one.

Even Raptor fans at the time knew we needed someone clearly better than Bosh for us to be serious.

[ShootersShoot]

I have him as a lamarcus aldridge caliber type of player, which quite frankly would be awesome to have as a 3rd option.

[LockoutSeason]

Raptors did a horrible job surrounding him with talent. They wasted 3 straight top 10 picks. Drafted Rafael Arujo over Andre Igoudala. Wasted the #1 pick on Andrea Bargnani. Then gave a huge contract to 30 year old Hedo Turkoglu.

Front offices sucked back then.

[jbsays]

I think if he'd have stayed in Toronto he would have been an Allstar every year, maybe a couple of All NBA teams, and likely been a HOF. He choose to go to Heat to try and win championships knowing he wouldn't put up the same numbers he did with Raptors. He also did a lot for the Heat that basically had nothing up front. He was starting next to guys like Haslem, Joel Anthony, Dampier, and Ilgauskus. For some reason the Heat during that era decided to spend what little money they had on wings like Mike Miller and Battier.

[Thaddy]

Bosh was a reason it was embarassing to be a Raptors fan. Pkea embarassment was the whole soft/rupaul era/getting dom'd by Shaq. This guy isn't that good and he could never lead a contender. He had that beta mentality and I guess he came to that realization when he joined Wade and Bron.

[og15]

Bosh was a reason it was embarassing to be a Raptors fan. Pkea embarassment was the whole soft/rupaul era/getting dom'd by Shaq. This guy isn't that good and he could never lead a contender. He had that beta mentality and I guess he came to that realization when he joined Wade and Bron.

This is unfair. First, not everyone can be a first option on a contender, there's like 10-ish players, give or take on a yearly basis that can even be considered that. Not being that is not a condemnation of a player.

Bosh was clearly the 3rd best player of the three, and the worst playmaker and on ball guy. There was no other role except for being the 3rd option.

It's actually praise to him that he was able to accept and integrate into that role. A different personality who was fighting that transition and trying to get on ball touches and no be more of a defensive guy, etc would have made that teams worse. He literally did what was best for winning.

[Duffman100]

Best all around player: Toronto Bosh, Memphis Pau or Phoenix Ayton?

Pau

Bosh








Ayton

[Dino353]

Nobody knows, because blood clots "can form due to a variety of factors, including injuries, medical conditions, and lifestyle choices".

They say, nothing screams Miami like blood clots?!

Well Miami has no thing in common with Toronto, so Bosh's body had a completely different experience in Miami and was therefore not the same compared to if he stayed in Toronto... so moving to Miami was a heavy dose of Chaos.

He was okay, not a true franchise player or someone to build around or be a first option

24.0 points on .518 shooting and 10.8 rebounds @ Toronto 2009-10 says differently, and he was only just entering his prime (he was 26-years-old when he left Toronto).

Yea nothing to scoff at but second option at best not MVP level like a Kevin Garnett

[JayMKE]

Bosh’s reputation increased a lot in Miami, he’s a HOFer and will be forever remembered as a part of that championship team with LeBron & Wade. 6 years somewhere else grinding it out as a first option and never seriously contending would not be the same.

[sikma42]

He was just ascending before he went to Miami. Hard to see how he’d project bc he wasn’t able develop in Miami


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[PaulKellerman]

Bosh got punk'd by Mikey Moore in 2006-He was a good player but let's not wax poetically about the man.

He found his calling as a 3rd fiddle in Miami

[PaulKellerman]

Bosh was a reason it was embarassing to be a Raptors fan. Pkea embarassment was the whole soft/rupaul era/getting dom'd by Shaq. This guy isn't that good and he could never lead a contender. He had that beta mentality and I guess he came to that realization when he joined Wade and Bron.

It was so easy to get him off his game for a star-That's why I felt Jermaine O'Neal would help the team when he was acquired and bring much needed toughness

[XTC]

Watch on YouTube

This is who you're talking about... thats what he did to try to avoid going down 3-1.

Great.

In the previous 3 games before that he averaged 21/7/4. Where was he then? He then scored 16/9/3 the very next game which was an elimination game. He also had an on/off +/- of -32.6... that is horrible. He didn't have a good series at all, no matter what the boxscore said. He played soft and timid whenever Dwight was on the floor. Wanna know another stat? The Raps had an DRTG of 118.5 when Bosh was on the court in the 2008 playoffs vs a DRTG of 98.5 when he was sitting.

I watched every single game that series, and what Dwight did to Bosh was criminal. Bosh was supposed to be the man, but he got absolutely clowned on that series. Bosh was scared to even attempt anything in the pain when Dwight was on. Let's not twist history around and pretend he had this great series. Bosh was playing soft and timid, there's a reason why Shaq called him the "Rupaul of big men" the very next season.

Bosh was a 3rd option, all he did was score (and often times holding the ball for too long), and if he wasnt scoring he didnt offer much more. He wasnt a good passer, he wasnt a good defender, and he didn't make his teammates better.

#2 guys are often what you describe in terms of offensive game( jaylen brown, pg, kyrie, lamarcus, siakam, even kd depending on your opinion of the warriors.) guys like that you want to find them a good matchup and have them attack and generate decent offense that allows you to put more defense on the floor. I undedrstand the defensive rating, but i literally watched the whole game 2 of the magic series just now, and jose calderon fell down twice and bosh is playing a suprising amount of the 5 because bargnani is unplayable. Im seeing decent closeouts on lewis, and him struggling with dwight. im not sure im seeing evidence that the version of bosh in his last year in toronto wasnt a capabale of doing what the players i mention above were doing minus kd. )

I have no problems with Chris Bosh the player bro. My problem is people thinking CB4 was this hidden star in Toronto who didnt get his flowers. He gets the proper amount of praise, and alot of these posts are revisionist history.

My definition of a #2 is a guy who can step up for short stretches and act as a defacto #1 option. Bosh was not that guy, his offense was either get the whistle by drawing a foul, or hit a mid range jumper. The biggest problem with Bosh was that he wasn't a guy you gave the ball to and said go get me a bucket, which is why we lost so many close games. Our closer if you remember was TJ Ford, because Bosh struggled to create his shot when the whistle tightened up.

I also have a problem with people acting like Bosh had no help, and Calderon and Ford where scrubs. Calderon, and Ford both dealt with injuries as they got older but the Raptors where legit getting allstar play from the point guard position.

Jose Caldeon 2008
PER 36 - 13.4/3.4/9.8
PER - 20.5
BPM - 4.5
VORP - 4.1
WS - 10.2

TJ Ford 2008
PER 36 - 18.5/3.0/9.4
PER - 20.3
BPM - 2.5
VORP - 1.4
WS - 3.3

Calderon actually lead the team in BPM, VORP, and WS. The rest of the roster was surrounded by good role players like Parker, Delfino, Moon, Rasho, Kapono. While it wasn't a contender, that team was 100% built around Bosh. They surrounded him with creators, and defenders to hide his deficiencies. Rasho was aquired so he didnt have to bruise with bigmen, while Forderon was running the offense. All he had to do was go out there to score and rebound. Bosh was one of the most manufactured stars in NBA history IMO. This is all coming from a guy who watched every single game he played, and bought his Jersey's in both Toronto + Miami.

[Clay Davis]

As a focal point, in Toronto, he was great. If he could've been that level of offensive player while maintaining the level of defense he had in Miami, we'd be talking about a top 5 PF of all time. That was the strength of his rizz, my brothers. Who could defend the pick and roll while scoring from all over like him?

[ballzboyee]

Great.

In the previous 3 games before that he averaged 21/7/4. Where was he then? He then scored 16/9/3 the very next game which was an elimination game. He also had an on/off +/- of -32.6... that is horrible. He didn't have a good series at all, no matter what the boxscore said. He played soft and timid whenever Dwight was on the floor. Wanna know another stat? The Raps had an DRTG of 118.5 when Bosh was on the court in the 2008 playoffs vs a DRTG of 98.5 when he was sitting.

I watched every single game that series, and what Dwight did to Bosh was criminal. Bosh was supposed to be the man, but he got absolutely clowned on that series. Bosh was scared to even attempt anything in the pain when Dwight was on. Let's not twist history around and pretend he had this great series. Bosh was playing soft and timid, there's a reason why Shaq called him the "Rupaul of big men" the very next season.

Bosh was a 3rd option, all he did was score (and often times holding the ball for too long), and if he wasnt scoring he didnt offer much more. He wasnt a good passer, he wasnt a good defender, and he didn't make his teammates better.

#2 guys are often what you describe in terms of offensive game( jaylen brown, pg, kyrie, lamarcus, siakam, even kd depending on your opinion of the warriors.) guys like that you want to find them a good matchup and have them attack and generate decent offense that allows you to put more defense on the floor. I undedrstand the defensive rating, but i literally watched the whole game 2 of the magic series just now, and jose calderon fell down twice and bosh is playing a suprising amount of the 5 because bargnani is unplayable. Im seeing decent closeouts on lewis, and him struggling with dwight. im not sure im seeing evidence that the version of bosh in his last year in toronto wasnt a capabale of doing what the players i mention above were doing minus kd. )

I have no problems with Chris Bosh the player bro. My problem is people thinking CB4 was this hidden star in Toronto who didnt get his flowers. He gets the proper amount of praise, and alot of these posts are revisionist history.

My definition of a #2 is a guy who can step up for short stretches and act as a defacto #1 option. Bosh was not that guy, his offense was either get the whistle by drawing a foul, or hit a mid range jumper. The biggest problem with Bosh was that he wasn't a guy you gave the ball to and said go get me a bucket, which is why we lost so many close games. Our closer if you remember was TJ Ford, because Bosh struggled to create his shot when the whistle tightened up.

I also have a problem with people acting like Bosh had no help, and Calderon and Ford where scrubs. Calderon, and Ford both dealt with injuries as they got older but the Raptors where legit getting allstar play from the point guard position.

Jose Caldeon 2008
PER 36 - 13.4/3.4/9.8
PER - 20.5
BPM - 4.5
VORP - 4.1
WS - 10.2

TJ Ford 2008
PER 36 - 18.5/3.0/9.4
PER - 20.3
BPM - 2.5
VORP - 1.4
WS - 3.3

Calderon actually lead the team in BPM, VORP, and WS. The rest of the roster was surrounded by good role players like Parker, Delfino, Moon, Rasho, Kapono. While it wasn't a contender, that team was 100% built around Bosh. They surrounded him with creators, and defenders to hide his deficiencies. Rasho was aquired so he didnt have to bruise with bigmen, while Forderon was running the offense. All he had to do was go out there to score and rebound. Bosh was one of the most manufactured stars in NBA history IMO. This is all coming from a guy who watched every single game he played, and bought his Jersey's in both Toronto + Miami.

Bosh was "literally" getting all-star play from two guys that in 21 combined seasons did not make a single all-star team for their entire careers. Good one. Another thread of just pure unserious gaslighting and rage baiting for some agenda or deluded goal. It's well documented that BPM is a biased stat in which big men underperform relative to guards and your sample size is a whole six games, which makes your those numbers you just cited basically meaningless. Let's look at real REAL stats -- you know, the things that ACTUALLY happened on the basketball court in real life: Bosh got double teamed every possession and led the team in points, rebounds, free throws, free throw attempts, and steals. He had more foul shots and offensive rebounds than the rest of the starters combined, which should tell you that he was carrying that team. Bosh's stat line was 24ppg/9reb/3.6ast 56ts which was elite then for a big then. And people forget Bosh is only 23 years old. Compare that to near peak veteran Tim Duncan who in 2007 (the year before so same era) posted 22ppg/12reb/3.3ast on 55ts. And unlike Bosh, Duncan actually did have HOF talent surrounding him to draw defensive attention.

It's pretty funny all this revisionism around Bosh when in the 2010 all-star game Wade, Lebron, and Bosh finished with point totals of 28, 25, and 23 and scored with 54 percent of East's points in a victory. Bosh dominated that game and the next year they were all on the same team. Bosh was clearly a top 3 or 4 player in the East at that time.

I have no idea why you guys keeps discussing "playmaking" for an iso-big in in the 2000's. I guess Shaq should have averaged triple-doubles or something and he would have been good player in RealGM's world, but oh look he averaged 2.5 assists for his career. Who cares?

[OrlandoMagic198]

I do not consider Bosh a star, but Bosh was a damn good player

[Shock Defeat]

Watch on YouTube