Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Ruma85]

Watch on YouTube

Here's some more of the interview.

[1993Playoffs]

He is a Hater, an overrated player with zero rings. Who was friends with a pedophile

[Franco]

Kawhi won a title on a team noone would consider a superteam. I'm not referring to what he did before (winning with the spurs) or after (the all but remarkable Clippers chapter).

LeBron refused to EVER go to an AVERAGE team and attempt to win on his own, outside of his first Lakers season, where he completely failed to even make the post season. On top of that, he crowned himself the King and declared himself the GOAT. Shouldnt we hold him to higher standards than every one else, and not continue to make excuses for him?

Who the hell was calling the 2020 Lakers a superteam? And calling the Raptors an "average" team is **** nuts, that same team won almost 60 games the season prior, it's one of the stronger supporting casts around. Kawhi was a demon in the title run but you're talking straight out of your ass.

Also, not that it actually matters, but LeBron didn't give himself the nickname.

1. Of course you just repeat the nonsense Lebron claims, he never played on a superteam according to ... himself.

I remember how good Kevin Love was, because i was a timberwolves fan back then. He was a phenom in the league with his reboundig and long outlet passes. He had the first 30/30 game in decades. Kyrie is the best scorer and ball handler in the entire league a #1 pick . But of course its not a superteam. As usual, his team mates are dragged down to elevate his share.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Even if I agreed the Cavs were a superteam, I didn't even bring them up. I mentioned the Lakers.

2. Who gave him that nickname?

Read on Twitter

I remember when he didnt even enter the league he already had "The Chosen 1" tattooed across his back.

While I can agree that's corny, again, he didn't give himself the nickname. And it's also irrelevant.

My point stands. Others showed more stamina, more resilience and more guts / cojones - and succeeded. He always, always took the easiest road. And considering how many people consider him the GOAT, and he supposedly being "the chosen 1", and always taking the easiest possible road, enjoying every possible backup from league and refs, never losing significant time to injury and playing 20+ seasons...i gotta say that four rings, many of which came with asterisk, is not the outcome to brag about. Others achieved more with less, and never made a show about it.

The trolling/insanity really goes to the level of a middle schooler when somehow, someway, being durable/available and having longevity become arguments against a player. Apparently it would've been better to have retired in his 17th season instead of playing multiple other All-NBA caliber year.

[Iwasawitness]

What Stockton ia saying is not saying his rings have no value, but he took shortcuts. He chose where to play and with. And he choose elite players. It's legit, and 2016 ring was one of the most difficult rings to win ever, no Matter what.
Stockton could go elsewhere and chose not to do It.
He, and Malone, where not projected to be all time players (they weren't top 10 in their draft) and after hard work they were able to be really near to win the tittle.
Probably , if would be more satisfactory, than winning one going with prime Barkley and prime Ewing in 90 to say 2 ringless players.


Sent from my 23030RAC7Y using RealGM mobile app

Multiple things wrong with this:

1. Choosing to go to another team isn't taking a shortcut. It's an athletes right and something they do in every sport. It's not an uncommon occurrence.

2. While you are correct in that Malone wasn't expected to be an all time player when he first got drafted (there's the story of him thinking he was going to Dallas at number 8 and slid all the way down to 13), he did nonetheless show immediate signs of being a very good player, and by the third season, he made his first all star team, and would continue to be one for the next ten years. LeBron didn't have anyone close to being that good in his first seven years. Hell, the only player who would've been close to that level (Boozer) left after his first season.

3. Yes, Stockton chose not to go elsewhere, and while that is commendable, he had very good reason not to. With having Malone and always getting good supporting casts, I would argue he was better off staying in Utah. Yeah, it didn't work out in the end, that's life. LeBron in contrast was pretty much screwed at the end of 2010. None of the major free agents chose to join him in Cleveland, and multiple teams in the East got better, while Cleveland got worse. They had no cap space and were limited on assets. He didn't really have much of a choice. I've said it before and I'll continue to say it: if he had a Karl Malone on his team, or someone who was a consistent all star level talent good enough to the point where he could even make all NBA teams from time to time, he wouldn't have left Cleveland the first time.

[Iwasawitness]

Who the hell was calling the 2020 Lakers a superteam? And calling the Raptors an "average" team is **** nuts, that same team won almost 60 games the season prior, it's one of the stronger supporting casts around. Kawhi was a demon in the title run but you're talking straight out of your ass.

Also, not that it actually matters, but LeBron didn't give himself the nickname.

1. Of course you just repeat the nonsense Lebron claims, he never played on a superteam according to ... himself.

I remember how good Kevin Love was, because i was a timberwolves fan back then. He was a phenom in the league with his reboundig and long outlet passes. He had the first 30/30 game in decades. Kyrie is the best scorer and ball handler in the entire league a #1 pick . But of course its not a superteam. As usual, his team mates are dragged down to elevate his share.

Again, what the hell are you talking about? Even if I agreed the Cavs were a superteam, I didn't even bring them up. I mentioned the Lakers.

2. Who gave him that nickname?

Read on Twitter

I remember when he didnt even enter the league he already had "The Chosen 1" tattooed across his back.

While I can agree that's corny, again, he didn't give himself the nickname. And it's also irrelevant.

My point stands. Others showed more stamina, more resilience and more guts / cojones - and succeeded. He always, always took the easiest road. And considering how many people consider him the GOAT, and he supposedly being "the chosen 1", and always taking the easiest possible road, enjoying every possible backup from league and refs, never losing significant time to injury and playing 20+ seasons...i gotta say that four rings, many of which came with asterisk, is not the outcome to brag about. Others achieved more with less, and never made a show about it.

The trolling/insanity really goes to the level of a middle schooler when somehow, someway, being durable/available and having longevity become arguments against a player. Apparently it would've been better to have retired in his 17th season instead of playing multiple other All-NBA caliber year.

You're talking to a guy who thinks the 14 Spurs are just a bunch of old people. Quit wasting your time.

[K9J]

Stockton's Western Conference titles dont have value neither, he lost +10 years against all the great players in his conference and only made the NBA Finals twice finally at 35 and 36 years old, only because the other players were more washed than him and Malone, and because he played in the weakest ERA of the last 50 years with no new generations, with only 2 players in the top 50 of all time who joined the NBA in almost 8 years and were stars in 1997 and 1998: Payton and Shaq(this with a suck team)

Stockton, Imagine how many rings LeBron could have had if he only had to face players of his own generation every year (Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Howard, CP3, yao ming, Deron) in the playoffs and finals with 30-37 years old, plus only 2 new players from the top 50 of all time from a next generation instead of the 3-4 different all times generation than he face.. 1.starting with durant-curry / 2. follow for jokic-anteto / 3. and could follow with doncic-tatum-shai/ant and obviously each generation with 3-5 years old difference and each one with others +3,+5 great all time players joining the nba

Lmao i love comments like this, have you watched the last 50 years to make your determination about how weak the west was or is this your opinion? Also, aside from OKC last year lets look at the west:

Denver made a playoff run cause Jokic is that great. Thats the only reason.
Minnesota - im waiting for Edwards to take over the league still, i think he is a little overrated. Randle is ok. Gobert is ok. Conley is old.
Memphis- did nothing
Houston - now with Durant they may do something but a team with Jalen Green and Jabari Smith as your core scares nobody.
Lakers - yawn
Clippers - yawn
GS - Curry got hurt and Butler is looking older

What did i miss? Was this a strong west last year?

My comment is quite clear and its the absolute reality of the history of the NBA that any objective person can assess. You have raised a parallel point to create your own narrative regarding a year to make a point that mean nothing of my comment.

Stockton for +10 years lost with barkley, olajuwon, mullin, magic, drexler,ceballos..whatever contemporary great player he face of his generation or the previous, then he won the western conference with 35 & 36 years old, because him and malone were better at this stage than the same players who beat them with 25-32 years, and still being the best players in the league, because in almost 10 years only 2 players of top 50 all time come to the league to face them being stars with -30 years old (shaq-payton), you can add players like robinson-miller-pippen but they had 31-34 years on those years (96-98)btw, so almost same generation anyway this is the best you can find in almost 10 years...five players

So yes, its not the same if lebron with 30-36 years have to face always a team with kobe 39 - howard 34 and cp3 34 for example every year older and worse than him, or a team with deron 35, carmelo 35, and bosh 35 instead of the three/four next and different generations with top 50 all time players those he faced and were younger.
In fact in 1995-1998 almost the top 10 players each season were the same than were the top 10 the previously 10 years changing retired players(kareem-magic-bird-thomas). While if you compare it with the generation before LeBron, his own or the next one, when LeBron was 32-37, only one player was still in the elite top 10/20 in the league (CP3), with mostly not even with level to start in a normal team in the league because the new generations of high average level player were great/better, or fit better with the game

your post dont have any sense,just with the stars the league have by far more level the last 12 years than 1995-1998, If you also compare the secondary role players/bench players, the difference in average level is huge better now. Except center position, any team can have 2-4 players who are much more athletics(+tall-physical-strong), complete better defenders. doing more helps/covering more spaces, being able to swap and hold diff players and shooting +35% in 3 that is the primary skillset in the game now. and this adding than mostly teams have at least 2-3 good players as base

[VanWest82]

21 pages on a very poor representation of what Stockton said. Here's the actual quote:

“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”

[Nazrmohamed]

Lebron was in a no-win situation. He stays in Cleveland, in his first stint, he never wins championship. He goes to Miami he is ring chaser and his rings are devalued.

I think there’s a difference between going to a better situation vs constructing super teams with different franchises over and over (while partially being able to do so because your buddy is an agent which is a whole different conversation)

What if he pouted and threatened to leave unless they brought him more help. Would that have been ok?

Yes, actually that wouldve. It wouldve shown hes trying to work with his own franchise. Way more respectable. If youre a fan of that team it looks spoiled on the surface but at least your star is pressuring YOUR TEAM to improve. People who feel the opposite are typically more fand of the nba or specific players. Some of us are fans of teams. ...cities. so perhaps were looking at it from that POV

[Iwasawitness]

I think there’s a difference between going to a better situation vs constructing super teams with different franchises over and over (while partially being able to do so because your buddy is an agent which is a whole different conversation)

What if he pouted and threatened to leave unless they brought him more help. Would that have been ok?

Yes, actually that wouldve. It wouldve shown hes trying to work with his own franchise. Way more respectable. If youre a fan of that team it looks spoiled on the surface but at least your star is pressuring YOUR TEAM to improve. People who feel the opposite are typically more fand of the nba or specific players. Some of us are fans of teams. ...cities. so perhaps were looking at it from that POV

Why are we sitting here acting like that isn't what LeBron did? There are multiple instances of him pointing out that they needed more during his first run with Cleveland. He publicly criticized the team for failing to get Jason Kidd via trade. He gave Cleveland plenty of chances, and they failed to deliver. Not sure what else you expect him to do in that situation.

[CzBoobie]

21 pages on a very poor representation of what Stockton said. Here's the actual quote:

“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”

Well, this is even stupider now...

[Yank3525]

21 pages on a very poor representation of what Stockton said. Here's the actual quote:

“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”

Yeah. He isn't saying anything outrageous.

The irony is the people dunking on him on here also think KD's rings are devalued. So go figure.

[Iwasawitness]

21 pages on a very poor representation of what Stockton said. Here's the actual quote:

“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”

Yeah. He isn't saying anything outrageous.

The irony is the people dunking on him on here also think KD's rings are devalued. So go figure.

Why is that ironic?

[michaelm]

21 pages on a very poor representation of what Stockton said. Here's the actual quote:

“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”

Yeah. He isn't saying anything outrageous.

The irony is the people dunking on him on here also think KD's rings are devalued. So go figure.

I have peforce agreed in previous discussions that there isn’t really any argument for LeBron’s path being less virtuous. Obviously a player staying at one team is the preference of those who are fans of teams more than players as someone has said. I am also not sure there was much in the way of rejection after consideration of a path like LeBron’s back then, by Stockton or anyone else, with LeBron’s own later choices being open to him largely because of his equally as a player in an era of player empowerment instigated by him.

You hit on a longterm hobby horse of mine though, I too consider LeBron fans to not be in a strong position to devalue KD’s rings. I also don’t see advantages which may have accrued to Jordan from his choices as any cause for complaint by them either.

[MavsDirk41]

Stockton's Western Conference titles dont have value neither, he lost +10 years against all the great players in his conference and only made the NBA Finals twice finally at 35 and 36 years old, only because the other players were more washed than him and Malone, and because he played in the weakest ERA of the last 50 years with no new generations, with only 2 players in the top 50 of all time who joined the NBA in almost 8 years and were stars in 1997 and 1998: Payton and Shaq(this with a suck team)

Stockton, Imagine how many rings LeBron could have had if he only had to face players of his own generation every year (Wade, Carmelo, Bosh, Howard, CP3, yao ming, Deron) in the playoffs and finals with 30-37 years old, plus only 2 new players from the top 50 of all time from a next generation instead of the 3-4 different all times generation than he face.. 1.starting with durant-curry / 2. follow for jokic-anteto / 3. and could follow with doncic-tatum-shai/ant and obviously each generation with 3-5 years old difference and each one with others +3,+5 great all time players joining the nba

Lmao i love comments like this, have you watched the last 50 years to make your determination about how weak the west was or is this your opinion? Also, aside from OKC last year lets look at the west:

Denver made a playoff run cause Jokic is that great. Thats the only reason.
Minnesota - im waiting for Edwards to take over the league still, i think he is a little overrated. Randle is ok. Gobert is ok. Conley is old.
Memphis- did nothing
Houston - now with Durant they may do something but a team with Jalen Green and Jabari Smith as your core scares nobody.
Lakers - yawn
Clippers - yawn
GS - Curry got hurt and Butler is looking older

What did i miss? Was this a strong west last year?

My comment is quite clear and its the absolute reality of the history of the NBA that any objective person can assess. You have raised a parallel point to create your own narrative regarding a year to make a point that mean nothing of my comment.

Stockton for +10 years lost with barkley, olajuwon, mullin, magic, drexler,ceballos..whatever contemporary great player he face of his generation or the previous, then he won the western conference with 35 & 36 years old, because him and malone were better at this stage than the same players who beat them with 25-32 years, and still being the best players in the league, because in almost 10 years only 2 players of top 50 all time come to the league to face them being stars with -30 years old (shaq-payton), you can add players like robinson-miller-pippen but they had 31-34 years on those years (96-98)btw, so almost same generation anyway this is the best you can find in almost 10 years...five players

So yes, its not the same if lebron with 30-36 years have to face always a team with kobe 39 - howard 34 and cp3 34 for example every year older and worse than him, or a team with deron 35, carmelo 35, and bosh 35 instead of the three/four next and different generations with top 50 all time players those he faced and were younger.
In fact in 1995-1998 almost the top 10 players each season were the same than were the top 10 the previously 10 years changing retired players(kareem-magic-bird-thomas). While if you compare it with the generation before LeBron, his own or the next one, when LeBron was 32-37, only one player was still in the elite top 10/20 in the league (CP3), with mostly not even with level to start in a normal team in the league because the new generations of high average level player were great/better, or fit better with the game

your post dont have any sense,just with the stars the league have by far more level the last 12 years than 1995-1998, If you also compare the secondary role players/bench players, the difference in average level is huge better now. Except center position, any team can have 2-4 players who are much more athletics(+tall-physical-strong), complete better defenders. doing more helps/covering more spaces, being able to swap and hold diff players and shooting +35% in 3 that is the primary skillset in the game now. and this adding than mostly teams have at least 2-3 good players as base

Your comment is your opinion and you want to downplay 90s era nba to fit your agenda which is common for guys in their 20s on this board. The game was played differently back then. In 97 the Lakers were built around Shaq with a supporting cast of Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Ceballos, Horry….they were a well built team for their time. Seattle had 2 stars in Payton and Kemp with a solid supporting cast of Detlef, Hawkins, Perkins, and McMillian. Houston had some aging stars but they were still built around Hakeem who was still a star, Drexler, Mario Ellie, and some other quality role players. Utah won 50 plus games 11 out of 13 seasons so they were a tough team to beat with two star players and one of the goat coaches. You think the best teams back then didnt have depth or star players? The game was just played differently. The offense wasn’t built around draw and kick 3s with spacing the floor. Offense was built around a dominant big, pick and roll, iso, or executing in the mid range. But the west had their strong teams and their weak teams. Same as today. I only brought up last year because its the most recent season and to show you that the west had one great team, a few decent teams, and some bad teams. Same as always. You are getting upset about nothing lol.

[JayMKE]

Literally no one disagrees that a homegrown ring is more valued, that sticking with one team is a good thing, not even Laker fans disagree with this.

[The4thHorseman]

Lmao i love comments like this, have you watched the last 50 years to make your determination about how weak the west was or is this your opinion? Also, aside from OKC last year lets look at the west:

Denver made a playoff run cause Jokic is that great. Thats the only reason.
Minnesota - im waiting for Edwards to take over the league still, i think he is a little overrated. Randle is ok. Gobert is ok. Conley is old.
Memphis- did nothing
Houston - now with Durant they may do something but a team with Jalen Green and Jabari Smith as your core scares nobody.
Lakers - yawn
Clippers - yawn
GS - Curry got hurt and Butler is looking older

What did i miss? Was this a strong west last year?

My comment is quite clear and its the absolute reality of the history of the NBA that any objective person can assess. You have raised a parallel point to create your own narrative regarding a year to make a point that mean nothing of my comment.

Stockton for +10 years lost with barkley, olajuwon, mullin, magic, drexler,ceballos..whatever contemporary great player he face of his generation or the previous, then he won the western conference with 35 & 36 years old, because him and malone were better at this stage than the same players who beat them with 25-32 years, and still being the best players in the league, because in almost 10 years only 2 players of top 50 all time come to the league to face them being stars with -30 years old (shaq-payton), you can add players like robinson-miller-pippen but they had 31-34 years on those years (96-98)btw, so almost same generation anyway this is the best you can find in almost 10 years...five players

So yes, its not the same if lebron with 30-36 years have to face always a team with kobe 39 - howard 34 and cp3 34 for example every year older and worse than him, or a team with deron 35, carmelo 35, and bosh 35 instead of the three/four next and different generations with top 50 all time players those he faced and were younger.
In fact in 1995-1998 almost the top 10 players each season were the same than were the top 10 the previously 10 years changing retired players(kareem-magic-bird-thomas). While if you compare it with the generation before LeBron, his own or the next one, when LeBron was 32-37, only one player was still in the elite top 10/20 in the league (CP3), with mostly not even with level to start in a normal team in the league because the new generations of high average level player were great/better, or fit better with the game

your post dont have any sense,just with the stars the league have by far more level the last 12 years than 1995-1998, If you also compare the secondary role players/bench players, the difference in average level is huge better now. Except center position, any team can have 2-4 players who are much more athletics(+tall-physical-strong), complete better defenders. doing more helps/covering more spaces, being able to swap and hold diff players and shooting +35% in 3 that is the primary skillset in the game now. and this adding than mostly teams have at least 2-3 good players as base

Your comment is your opinion and you want to downplay 90s era nba to fit your agenda which is common for guys in their 20s on this board. The game was played differently back then. In 97 the Lakers were built around Shaq with a supporting cast of Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Ceballos, Horry….they were a well built team for their time. Seattle had 2 stars in Payton and Kemp with a solid supporting cast of Detlef, Hawkins, Perkins, and McMillian. Houston had some aging stars but they were still built around Hakeem who was still a star, Drexler, Mario Ellie, and some other quality role players. Utah won 50 plus games 11 out of 13 seasons so they were a tough team to beat with two star players and one of the goat coaches. You think the best teams back then didnt have depth or star players? The game was just played differently. The offense wasn’t built around draw and kick 3s with spacing the floor. Offense was built around a dominant big, pick and roll, iso, or executing in the mid range. But the west had their strong teams and their weak teams. Same as today. I only brought up last year because its the most recent season and to show you that the west had one great team, a few decent teams, and some bad teams. Same as always. You are getting upset about nothing lol.

One could easily say you were trying to pump up the late 80's and entire 90's by claiming Utah and Portland were both dynasties during that time, even though neither franchise won a title. Either that or you just don't know what a dynasty means when it comes to the NBA.

[The4thHorseman]

Literally no one disagrees that a homegrown ring is more valued, that sticking with one team is a good thing, not even Laker fans disagree with this.

So all players who participated on the winning Finals team has to have been drafted by said team in order for the title to be valued at the highest?

[og15]

I think there’s a difference between going to a better situation vs constructing super teams with different franchises over and over (while partially being able to do so because your buddy is an agent which is a whole different conversation)

What if he pouted and threatened to leave unless they brought him more help. Would that have been ok?

Yes, actually that wouldve. It wouldve shown hes trying to work with his own franchise. Way more respectable. If youre a fan of that team it looks spoiled on the surface but at least your star is pressuring YOUR TEAM to improve. People who feel the opposite are typically more fand of the nba or specific players. Some of us are fans of teams. ...cities. so perhaps were looking at it from that POV

If Cleveland's FO wasn't aware of the fact that they needed to bring in better players, they were living on a different planet. Of course they knew that, whether they were capable of doing it is a different question.

Look, there was some back luck there. Before Lebron, Cleveland drafted Dajuan Wagner who played 102 injury prone games for them in addition to his ulcerative colitis issues, etc, and was out of the league early. They could have drafted:
Nene
Amare
C.Butler

It's the draft, it's a crapshoot, lets not go with the best option (Amare) and say they took Caron Butler instead, okay, nice.

They also drafted Carlos Boozer who went to Utah for better monetary pastures, another nice piece lost.

If Cleveland had better luck with those situations, their 04-05 roster could have had these guys:

Lebron James
Caron Butler
Carlos Boozer

If the Cavs instead had those two guys as other pieces or even trade assets next to Lebron, then the whole situation changes. Instead, the lottery pick before Lebron, bust, the 2nd round surprise pick gone, and the next lottery pick in 2004, Luke Jackson, nothing. So the three sort of assets they could have had right around Lebron, they got nothing for them, and that sets you back, because due to LeBron's talent and health, you're good early and won't get any more lottery picks, and Cleveland is not a FA destination.


Let's use another GOAT as an example, because people just think since this is how it played out, it couldn't have been different. Let's say in 87, the Clippers take Pippen. Sonics pick up Reggie Williams for them in a switch for Grant. Bulls then tak Polynice at 10th instead of Grant.

Bulls for from Jordan/Pippen/Grant to Jordan/Williams/Polynice. How successful is Jordan's Buls tenure now? He's too good of a player for them to be in the lottery, but his teammates are too weak to make them contenders.

This is just how basketball teams work, everyone doesn't get the same level of front office, but even the same level of luck. Should a player just reside to, "well sucks for me" like KG with his team that lost picks because of Joe Smith, and could never get enough talent there outside of like 1 season?

[michaelm]

Literally no one disagrees that a homegrown ring is more valued, that sticking with one team is a good thing, not even Laker fans disagree with this.

No doubt many think that, but the question is why ?. I am a Curry fan myself, so it is a narrative which suits me, but I don’t see any compelling argument, it is perhaps something of a motherhood statement.

[JujitsuFlip]

Argue all you want, he colluded and it was at his first UFA. Deal with it.

Still can't admit collusion.

How is it collusion? By labeling it that way, you're insinuating something illegal happened.

Please show me anywhere in the NBA CBA or NBA Constitution where it says it is illegal or against the rules for players to talk amongst themselves.