Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#441 » by michaelm » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:17 pm

Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

Agree with this.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#442 » by SomeBunghole » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:18 pm

KyRo23 wrote:Well yeah, everyone has these "assets", but it doesn't mean they were good assets. There is a reason they traded them for over the hill mid tier players.


The reason was that LeBron and people around him wanted them to go all in. We know that both from stories at the time, from stories that have emerged since, and from that fact that LeBron and his hangers-on have operated exactly like this since 2010, as well.

The point here isn't necessarily that there were much better trades, but that going all-in like that was stupid. The reason the Cavs didn't have cap space in 2010 to get LeBron's two All-NBA buddies to team up with him in Cleveland instead of Miami wasn't that the Cavs organization were all idiots while the Heat were all geniuses. It was that LeBron wouldn't let them spend 2-3 years clearing up the cap space needed.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#443 » by Jagic Mohnson » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:20 pm

I think Stockton is just team Jordan in the Jordan vs Bron goat debate. Saying Brons titles don't count is dumb because you could use Stockton's logic that Paul pierce 2008 ring, 2 of curry's titles, or all of Durant's titles for needing superteams to win 1 or more titles.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#444 » by MavsDirk41 » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:42 pm

The4thHorseman wrote:
MavsDirk41 wrote:
K9J wrote:
My comment is quite clear and its the absolute reality of the history of the NBA that any objective person can assess. You have raised a parallel point to create your own narrative regarding a year to make a point that mean nothing of my comment.

Stockton for +10 years lost with barkley, olajuwon, mullin, magic, drexler,ceballos..whatever contemporary great player he face of his generation or the previous, then he won the western conference with 35 & 36 years old, because him and malone were better at this stage than the same players who beat them with 25-32 years, and still being the best players in the league, because in almost 10 years only 2 players of top 50 all time come to the league to face them being stars with -30 years old (shaq-payton), you can add players like robinson-miller-pippen but they had 31-34 years on those years (96-98)btw, so almost same generation anyway this is the best you can find in almost 10 years...five players

So yes, its not the same if lebron with 30-36 years have to face always a team with kobe 39 - howard 34 and cp3 34 for example every year older and worse than him, or a team with deron 35, carmelo 35, and bosh 35 :D instead of the three/four next and different generations with top 50 all time players those he faced and were younger.
In fact in 1995-1998 almost the top 10 players each season were the same than were the top 10 the previously 10 years changing retired players(kareem-magic-bird-thomas). While if you compare it with the generation before LeBron, his own or the next one, when LeBron was 32-37, only one player was still in the elite top 10/20 in the league (CP3), with mostly not even with level to start in a normal team in the league because the new generations of high average level player were great/better, or fit better with the game

your post dont have any sense,just with the stars the league have by far more level the last 12 years than 1995-1998, If you also compare the secondary role players/bench players, the difference in average level is huge better now. Except center position, any team can have 2-4 players who are much more athletics(+tall-physical-strong), complete better defenders. doing more helps/covering more spaces, being able to swap and hold diff players and shooting +35% in 3 that is the primary skillset in the game now. and this adding than mostly teams have at least 2-3 good players as base


Your comment is your opinion and you want to downplay 90s era nba to fit your agenda which is common for guys in their 20s on this board. The game was played differently back then. In 97 the Lakers were built around Shaq with a supporting cast of Eddie Jones, Van Exel, Ceballos, Horry….they were a well built team for their time. Seattle had 2 stars in Payton and Kemp with a solid supporting cast of Detlef, Hawkins, Perkins, and McMillian. Houston had some aging stars but they were still built around Hakeem who was still a star, Drexler, Mario Ellie, and some other quality role players. Utah won 50 plus games 11 out of 13 seasons so they were a tough team to beat with two star players and one of the goat coaches. You think the best teams back then didnt have depth or star players? The game was just played differently. The offense wasn’t built around draw and kick 3s with spacing the floor. Offense was built around a dominant big, pick and roll, iso, or executing in the mid range. But the west had their strong teams and their weak teams. Same as today. I only brought up last year because its the most recent season and to show you that the west had one great team, a few decent teams, and some bad teams. Same as always. You are getting upset about nothing lol.

One could easily say you were trying to pump up the late 80's and entire 90's by claiming Utah and Portland were both dynasties during that time, even though neither franchise won a title. Either that or you just don't know what a dynasty means when it comes to the NBA.



Im still waiting for you to tell me why the 89 Detroit Pistons were not a deep/stacked team….seems like:

- you said something you have no clue about
- you were not old enough to have watched that team
- you made that comment out of frustration
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#445 » by Memories » Sun Aug 10, 2025 11:46 pm

WiggOuts wrote:
Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

I think none of these old timers want to admit it, you hear the odd person come out and say it here and there but I think there's TONS of jealousy surrounding how much these guys make. Nowadays you have average players signing contracts that some of these old guys have barely made over their entire CAREERS. I bet its hard for these guys not to feel a ways and it trickles down through their subconscious


I actually think this issue stems from a MUCH MORE deep seeded issue than just money. And it's something to do more with the NBA culture itself and how it caters SO MUCH to individualism than any other sport.

1. The NBA’s Culture of Individualism

Basketball is arguably the most individual-focused team sport. Players are the brand. Fans know faces, not helmets (NFL) or caps (MLB). Retired stars often feel their legacy is being rewritten when new players rack up stats or media hype. This naturally breeds comparisons, and older players often feel slighted or forgotten.

Think of it like this: In football, Tom Brady is a GOAT, but no one says he, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, etc make Joe Montana irrelevant. In the NBA? Steph Curry’s success often gets framed as diminishing the achievements of a player like Allen Iverson.

2. 24/7 Sports Media & Hot-Take Culture

Modern NBA coverage is relentless. And often centered around GOAT debates, stats, and drama. Retired players are constantly asked to weigh in on LeBron vs. MJ, or how today’s game compares to the past. The media provokes these takes because they go viral (like this thread for example), and ex-players are often expected to "defend their era."

Other sports legends (like in MLB or NFL) just aren't put under this kind of constant scrutiny and pressure to rank and compare.

3. The Game Has Changed More Dramatically

The NBA game today is radically different from what it was even 15 years ago. 3 point revolution, no post play, little midrange, less physicality. Older players often feel the game is softer, less skilled in traditional ways, or "not real basketball."

When Shaq sees stretch-5s and 7-footers shooting threes, it just doesn’t align with what dominated in his day.

4. Prominent Retired Players Stay Loud & Relevant

In the NBA, many former stars become commentators and influencers: Barkley, Shaq, KG, Draymond (soon), etc. Their job is to entertain, and criticism draws attention. The NBA embraces this "barbershop talk" culture. Which fuels generational beefs.

Basically it's this: Football is too team-structured, and positions are too diverse for legacy debates to dominate.

Baseball changes slower, and its culture is more reverent of past stats (and obsessed with history).

Soccer legends often work within the system or clubs, and legacy debates are more localized (Messi vs. Maradona isn't on every week on ESPN).
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#446 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:12 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
KyRo23 wrote:Well yeah, everyone has these "assets", but it doesn't mean they were good assets. There is a reason they traded them for over the hill mid tier players.


The reason was that LeBron and people around him wanted them to go all in. We know that both from stories at the time, from stories that have emerged since, and from that fact that LeBron and his hangers-on have operated exactly like this since 2010, as well.

The point here isn't necessarily that there were much better trades, but that going all-in like that was stupid. The reason the Cavs didn't have cap space in 2010 to get LeBron's two All-NBA buddies to team up with him in Cleveland instead of Miami wasn't that the Cavs organization were all idiots while the Heat were all geniuses. It was that LeBron wouldn't let them spend 2-3 years clearing up the cap space needed.


I mean I get what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it, but Cleveland wasn't a place stars wanted to join up. I believe a handful of players said it back then and even Wade said there was no way he would have went to Cleveland in 2010 even if they had space. They were stuck in a spot there they had no confidence grabbing stars in FA and not enough assets to trade for a #2
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#447 » by JayMKE » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:13 am

This isn’t even hating or anything to do with old school vs modern day, it’s just LeBron fans martyring him. Does anybody deny that guys like Steph/Kobe/Dirk are more beloved and respected for staying with one team and going thru the trials & tribulations? It’s not hating to say those rings are more respected, it’s just objective fact. That doesn’t mean LeBron or whoever else isn’t being accomplished, it’s just acknowledging the overall struggle and rewarding loyalty and perseverance. Nobody should have to explain why those traits are valued.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#448 » by ball_takes23 » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:15 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
KyRo23 wrote:Well yeah, everyone has these "assets", but it doesn't mean they were good assets. There is a reason they traded them for over the hill mid tier players.


The reason was that LeBron and people around him wanted them to go all in. We know that both from stories at the time, from stories that have emerged since, and from that fact that LeBron and his hangers-on have operated exactly like this since 2010, as well.

The point here isn't necessarily that there were much better trades, but that going all-in like that was stupid. The reason the Cavs didn't have cap space in 2010 to get LeBron's two All-NBA buddies to team up with him in Cleveland instead of Miami wasn't that the Cavs organization were all idiots while the Heat were all geniuses. It was that LeBron wouldn't let them spend 2-3 years clearing up the cap space needed.


If Lebron knows he is going to bail on a team in 1-2 years, there is really no reason for him not to pressure the franchise to go all-in, because he is not going to be the one paying for the short-term thinking, the franchise is. And this really gets to the heart of why a lot of people are not fans of the way he operates and use phrases like “taking shortcuts” when describing him. What Lebron is essentially doing is taking out a loan in one state, reaping the benefits of that loan, and then when it comes time to pay back said loan he is moving to another state where that loan is no longer enforceable.

A player remaining loyal to one franchise would need to play for around 60 years in order to play with as many prime-aged (25-31) stars as Lebron has over the last 15.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#449 » by MavsDirk41 » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:19 am

Memories wrote:
WiggOuts wrote:
Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

I think none of these old timers want to admit it, you hear the odd person come out and say it here and there but I think there's TONS of jealousy surrounding how much these guys make. Nowadays you have average players signing contracts that some of these old guys have barely made over their entire CAREERS. I bet its hard for these guys not to feel a ways and it trickles down through their subconscious


I actually think this issue stems from a MUCH MORE deep seeded issue than just money. And it's something to do more with the NBA culture itself and how it caters SO MUCH to individualism than any other sport.

1. The NBA’s Culture of Individualism

Basketball is arguably the most individual-focused team sport. Players are the brand. Fans know faces, not helmets (NFL) or caps (MLB). Retired stars often feel their legacy is being rewritten when new players rack up stats or media hype. This naturally breeds comparisons, and older players often feel slighted or forgotten.

Think of it like this: In football, Tom Brady is a GOAT, but no one says he, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, etc make Joe Montana irrelevant. In the NBA? Steph Curry’s success often gets framed as diminishing the achievements of a player like Allen Iverson.

2. 24/7 Sports Media & Hot-Take Culture

Modern NBA coverage is relentless. And often centered around GOAT debates, stats, and drama. Retired players are constantly asked to weigh in on LeBron vs. MJ, or how today’s game compares to the past. The media provokes these takes because they go viral (like this thread for example), and ex-players are often expected to "defend their era."

Other sports legends (like in MLB or NFL) just aren't put under this kind of constant scrutiny and pressure to rank and compare.

3. The Game Has Changed More Dramatically

The NBA game today is radically different from what it was even 15 years ago. 3 point revolution, no post play, little midrange, less physicality. Older players often feel the game is softer, less skilled in traditional ways, or "not real basketball."

When Shaq sees stretch-5s and 7-footers shooting threes, it just doesn’t align with what dominated in his day.

4. Prominent Retired Players Stay Loud & Relevant

In the NBA, many former stars become commentators and influencers: Barkley, Shaq, KG, Draymond (soon), etc. Their job is to entertain, and criticism draws attention. The NBA embraces this "barbershop talk" culture. Which fuels generational beefs.

Basically it's this: Football is too team-structured, and positions are too diverse for legacy debates to dominate.

Baseball changes slower, and its culture is more reverent of past stats (and obsessed with history).

Soccer legends often work within the system or clubs, and legacy debates are more localized (Messi vs. Maradona isn't on every week on ESPN).



Great post!! Couldn’t agree more!
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#450 » by SomeBunghole » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:42 am

KyRo23 wrote:I mean I get what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it, but Cleveland wasn't a place stars wanted to join up. I believe a handful of players said it back then and even Wade said there was no way he would have went to Cleveland in 2010 even if they had space. They were stuck in a spot there they had no confidence grabbing stars in FA and not enough assets to trade for a #2


I agree with this, as well, but then we get to the main question here. Was there anything Cleveland could do to keep him? Even acknowledging they should've done the Boozer situation differently and drafted someone other than Luke Jackson, they are unlikely to have won a championship by 2010.

It just feels like LeBron set up Cleveland to fail and then used that as an excuse to get out while trying to not look like a villain.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#451 » by KyRo23 » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:49 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
KyRo23 wrote:I mean I get what you're saying and I agree with a lot of it, but Cleveland wasn't a place stars wanted to join up. I believe a handful of players said it back then and even Wade said there was no way he would have went to Cleveland in 2010 even if they had space. They were stuck in a spot there they had no confidence grabbing stars in FA and not enough assets to trade for a #2


I agree with this, as well, but then we get to the main question here. Was there anything Cleveland could do to keep him? Even acknowledging they should've done the Boozer situation differently and drafted someone other than Luke Jackson, they are unlikely to have won a championship by 2010.

It just feels like LeBron set up Cleveland to fail and then used that as an excuse to get out while trying to not look like a villain.


It's a bit of both in my opinion. I don't really fault a player for going all in wanting to win a championship in the shortest amount of time possible. I mean that's really the point for players. It really wasn't the perfect scenario for either party
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#452 » by Iwasawitness » Mon Aug 11, 2025 12:55 am

JayMKE wrote:This isn’t even hating or anything to do with old school vs modern day, it’s just LeBron fans martyring him. Does anybody deny that guys like Steph/Kobe/Dirk are more beloved and respected for staying with one team and going thru the trials & tribulations? It’s not hating to say those rings are more respected, it’s just objective fact. That doesn’t mean LeBron or whoever else isn’t being accomplished, it’s just acknowledging the overall struggle and rewarding loyalty and perseverance. Nobody should have to explain why those traits are valued.


No one is martyring anyone. It's a matter of logic.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#453 » by Diop » Mon Aug 11, 2025 1:14 am

michaelm wrote:
Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

Agree with this.

i think its more media making ridiculous click bait titles, like the title of this thread and dumb people quickly over reacting to it for something to do.

he was asked about MJ vs Lebrons career, he gave a reasonable explanation of his opinion. He NEVER said Lebron's titles don't have value, he said he likes where people help grow the team they're in, he thinks that has more value than look for the better option which is ready to win.

A reasonable answer, nothing outrageous but clickbait and short attention spans turn it into the great debate of extreme takes.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#454 » by Black Jack » Mon Aug 11, 2025 2:08 am

WiggOuts wrote:
Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

I think none of these old timers want to admit it, you hear the odd person come out and say it here and there but I think there's TONS of jealousy surrounding how much these guys make. Nowadays you have average players signing contracts that some of these old guys have barely made over their entire CAREERS. I bet its hard for these guys not to feel a ways and it trickles down through their subconscious


I was going to include that in my comment but then, aren't MLB and NFL salaries way higher too? I guess NFL gets hosed somewhat but MLB guys are making crazy money now and I don't see old MLB greats salty about that.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#455 » by WiggOuts » Mon Aug 11, 2025 2:16 am

Memories wrote:
WiggOuts wrote:
Black Jack wrote:NBA retirees have way too much bad to say about current players. You don't hear Tom Brady or Ken Griffey Jr or somebody like that whining about guys playing today anywhere near the amount HoF level NBA players do.

It's become ridiculous and honestly jealousy seems to be the real issue.

There's no other sport where retirees are so convinced their era was better. get real.

I think none of these old timers want to admit it, you hear the odd person come out and say it here and there but I think there's TONS of jealousy surrounding how much these guys make. Nowadays you have average players signing contracts that some of these old guys have barely made over their entire CAREERS. I bet its hard for these guys not to feel a ways and it trickles down through their subconscious


I actually think this issue stems from a MUCH MORE deep seeded issue than just money. And it's something to do more with the NBA culture itself and how it caters SO MUCH to individualism than any other sport.

1. The NBA’s Culture of Individualism

Basketball is arguably the most individual-focused team sport. Players are the brand. Fans know faces, not helmets (NFL) or caps (MLB). Retired stars often feel their legacy is being rewritten when new players rack up stats or media hype. This naturally breeds comparisons, and older players often feel slighted or forgotten.

Think of it like this: In football, Tom Brady is a GOAT, but no one says he, Aaron Rodgers, Patrick Mahomes, etc make Joe Montana irrelevant. In the NBA? Steph Curry’s success often gets framed as diminishing the achievements of a player like Allen Iverson.

2. 24/7 Sports Media & Hot-Take Culture

Modern NBA coverage is relentless. And often centered around GOAT debates, stats, and drama. Retired players are constantly asked to weigh in on LeBron vs. MJ, or how today’s game compares to the past. The media provokes these takes because they go viral (like this thread for example), and ex-players are often expected to "defend their era."

Other sports legends (like in MLB or NFL) just aren't put under this kind of constant scrutiny and pressure to rank and compare.

3. The Game Has Changed More Dramatically

The NBA game today is radically different from what it was even 15 years ago. 3 point revolution, no post play, little midrange, less physicality. Older players often feel the game is softer, less skilled in traditional ways, or "not real basketball."

When Shaq sees stretch-5s and 7-footers shooting threes, it just doesn’t align with what dominated in his day.

4. Prominent Retired Players Stay Loud & Relevant

In the NBA, many former stars become commentators and influencers: Barkley, Shaq, KG, Draymond (soon), etc. Their job is to entertain, and criticism draws attention. The NBA embraces this "barbershop talk" culture. Which fuels generational beefs.

Basically it's this: Football is too team-structured, and positions are too diverse for legacy debates to dominate.

Baseball changes slower, and its culture is more reverent of past stats (and obsessed with history).

Soccer legends often work within the system or clubs, and legacy debates are more localized (Messi vs. Maradona isn't on every week on ESPN).

You definitely touch on a lot of interesting topics and I agree. Really, the simple root of a lot of the issue is the media coverage. I mean the NFL has crazy coverage as well but these guys aren't as big globally as NBA guys and definitely aren't as recognizable. There are also lots of NFL players on a team whereas NBA individuals can almost be synonymous with certain teams, and over long periods of time. Successful NBA players are relevant for a long time, probably even longer now and going forward.

The constant need to appease NBA fans with content is an ever flowing river. Getting the old guys to take digs at the current crop is just another avenue for that. I mean here we are 20 something pages deep. At the end of the day, these guys don't need to say things, sure Stockton came off like hes been waiting to but we can't act as if someone just asked him a question. He had very specific things to say.

For what its worth, I do agree with him to a certain extent, unfortunately for him and his history most people will look through whether he's right or wrong
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#456 » by axeman23 » Mon Aug 11, 2025 2:33 am

SomeBunghole wrote:
Mazter wrote:The talent on the Cavs from 2003-2010 is lightyears away from the kind of talent Stockton got during his career with the Jazz.


The best team and most successful Stockton was on was the one when Stockton was in his mid-30s. Stockton was in his 10th season when the Jazz finally got a serviceable shooting guard next to him.

LeBron joined the league 4 years younger than Stockton, has already played 20+ seasons, but he couldn't **** wait 2-3 years at the age of 22 for Cavs to be in a position to put good players around him? Come on.


So Jeff Malone (19/3/2) is not a "serviceable shooting guard", but Mo Williams (18/4/3) IS, I guess? He also had a good 6 years of Mark Eaton before he fell apart, Dantley/Darryl Griffiths, 6moy candidate Thurl Bailey. 0h, and that "other guy", something about a "Mailman"? It's amazing Stockton was able to lead such a collection of plumbers and firefighters to even double-digit wins, let's all throw a pity-party for poor John... :lol:
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#457 » by cakewalk » Mon Aug 11, 2025 3:32 am

So are teams really supposed to continually re-sign every player they draft until they retire? Because while Jordan was with the Bulls most of his career, the roster was not static. But somehow Jordan's titles are deserved and well-earned but screw anyone who was traded to that Bulls roster because whatever they there did is devalued.

Like why not devalue Jordan's titles because the Bulls didn't stick with Will Perdue and Charles Oakley etc.?

It just seems like this is more hysterical Jordan worship, where exactly whatever Jordan did was the correct and best way of doing things, whereas anyone else who could be in a GOAT debate did things wrong.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#458 » by hyberx » Mon Aug 11, 2025 5:28 am

Curry > LeBron, simple as that. Anyone who led his own team to multiple titles is higher than LeBron.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#459 » by Jables » Mon Aug 11, 2025 10:05 am

Glory is in the eye of the beholder. Lots of people will agree or disagree with Stockton, I guess the question is what people in 10, 30, 50 years will think about LeBron. I dunnoh.

What is inarguable, is Stockton is being bitter about his own lack of success here. If he were really intelligent, he'd know you can't compare eras.
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Re: Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value 

Post#460 » by NYPiston » Mon Aug 11, 2025 11:50 am

Why do people act like Jordan had to drag those Bulls teams to titles? Do they forget that Jordan had an all time great flanking him almost his entire Bulls tenure and that Jordan didn't start winning titles until that player came of age, not to mention that the Bulls were still contenders even when Jordan retired because that player he played alongside was pretty damn good? And also that the Bulls formed the 90s version of a SuperTeam by bringing in Rodman at Jordan's request btw.

I'm not here to say that Lebron is better or that his title runs were worth more by any means but there's some revisionist history when it comes to Jordan's title runs as if he was carrying teams.

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