Is Jimmy Butler a top 10 SF all time?

[Narigo]

Is Jimmy Butler a top 10 small forward ever? Is not, where do you rank him?

[kcktiny]

No.

Butler has played 14 seasons in the league.

Yet he has played more than 2200 minutes in a season just 4 times, has averaged playing just 2056 minutes/season, and just 62 games/season.

[One_and_Done]

For sure. I doubt I could name 10 guys better.

[iggymcfrack]

Yes, definitely. Bron, Bird, Kawhi, KD, Dr. J, and Pippen are all clearly better. Baylor and Pierce are maybes. That puts Jimmy in the 7-9 range. Havlicek has much worse with numbers with slightly worse defense. Barry has much worse numbers and much worse defense. I can’t think of anyone else with an argument.

[70sFan]

He's on the edge, I would probably rank him there but it's close.

I can’t think of anyone else with an argument.

Arizin and George have both reasonable cases for me.

[iggymcfrack]

He's on the edge, I would probably rank him there but it's close.

I can’t think of anyone else with an argument.

Arizin and George have both reasonable cases for me.

Ooh, you’re right. I actually thought of Arizin for a minute and then forgot. Baylor, Pierce, Arizin, George, and Butler are all in the same tier. So Jimmy’s in the 7-11 range on the borderline of the top 10.

[eminence]

Reasonable pick. Top 15 for sure, could see a ceiling around 7 (don’t see much case against LeBron/Bird/Durant/DrJ/Pippen/Pierce). Kawhi is obviously better, but maybe there’s a durability case to be made.


Tatum might be a reasonable discussion.

Agreeing with the lack of mention of the score first/last 80s guys.

[xinxin]

In no particular order, here are my top small forwards ever:



Hondo
Baylor
Azirin
Rick Barry
Worthy
Bird
Bernard King
Dantley
Alex English
Dr J
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Pippen
Pierce
KD
Kawhi
Melo
LeBron


Who does he bump off here?


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[migya]

Like many others the last decade or so, he has missed much games and doesn't have much totality. He'd be close due to two way performance.

Don't see any case for Kawhi top 10. He has missed that much, hasn't played many games being less than even pre 1990s SFs, and his numbers certainly are no better than many top SFs. For example, he has no case to be above Rick Barry, who played more, was a two way great himself, and was clearly among the best players most seasons while playing most games.

[penbeast0]

Hondo
Baylor

Azirin
Rick Barry


Worthy
Bird
Bernard King
Dantley
Alex English
Dr J
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Pippen

Pierce
KD
Kawhi
Melo
LeBron


Who does he bump off here?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thank you for putting English and Dantley over Nique and Worthy.

Depending on how strongly you weigh durability and his leadership v. the problems he has had with many organizations he could be top 10 or bottom of top 20. It depends on your criteria.

[penbeast0]

Like many others the last decade or so, he has missed much games and doesn't have much totality. He'd be close due to two way performance.

Don't see any case for Kawhi top 10. He has missed that much, hasn't played many games being less than even pre 1990s SFs, and his numbers certainly are no better than many top SFs. For example, he has no case to be above Rick Barry, who played more, was a two way great himself, and was clearly among the best players most seasons while playing most games.

Barry was generally a mediocre defender who saved his energy for the offensive end though he turned it up when he felt it was important. Also one of the greater jerks to play the game though how much that matters depends on how important you feel that it is. Offensively, a 3 level scorer for his day with excellent playmaking skills, like the 60s/70s version of Larry Bird and that's where he made his reputation.

[ShotCreator]

Scottie Pippen was not better than Jimmy Butler.

Butler has better seasons than Pippen’s peak on about 4 different teams.

I think Butler is easily top 10 all-time for SF’s with this in mind. Assuming Pippen is some solidified standard at SF all-time.

The only thing stopping his from being duly acknowledged is winning bias. Butler’s ‘best’ years will be seen as his early 30’s seasons with Miami when he was already a dominant guy by 2017, but was not on teams where it wound up mattering. Even turning Miami into a title contender is a crazy feat in retrospect. Absolutely no one expected that. And looking at the roster, it should’ve never happened, but Butler played at levels far surpassing any version of Pippen.

[LA Bird]

Don't see the career case for Arizin here. Last time we had a full peaks project, he was barely mentioned while Butler was second behind Luka and Barry in the final rounds. And that was with 2020, not his 2023 season since which I assume most rank even higher. And unless we are adding hypothetical seasons for Arizin's military years, what's his prime or longevity argument? His best seasons outside of his top two were 57 (injured in playoffs), 59 (worst offense in the league), then... 51? His own teammate Neil Johnston made the RPOY top 5 twice as often. The only way for Arizin to be ahead of Butler for career is if someone wants to argue he had a Kawhi level peak because of the championship but is anyone prepared to go that far for rings?

[ceoofkobefans]

No, but he's close and I could see him finishing his career there.

Bron
Bird
KD
Dr J
Pippen
Barry
Hondo
Kawhi
Elgin

It'd be very hard for me to get him over and I'd have him a little below Paul Pierce, and Paul George as well, which would put him at 12

[trex_8063]

LeBron
Bird
Durant
Dr. J
Kawhi
Pippen
Baylor
Havlicek....
....then Pierce/Barry/Butler.

I had Butler behind them all (so 11th among SF's) at the time of the 2023 Top 100 Project, but not super-far behind. I suspect in the two intervening years, he has at least caught up to Barry for me.

So probably 9th or 10th for me at this point.


Note: I did not forget about Paul Arizin or Paul George (or TMac, Wilkins, Marion, Dantley or English, for that matter)......I simply think Butler has surpassed all of them.

[One_and_Done]

Butler is better than these older guys like Hondo, Dantley, English, Baylor, etc. The carry jobs he pulled off in 20, 22, and 23, are frankly more impressive than the peak play of top 25 guys like Kobe and Wade. Tough to see how a guy ranked that highly wouldn't be at least a top 10 small forward.

[TheGOATRises007]

Peak wise, I definitely think he is.

I personally think Butler is easily superior to someone like Pierce on peak play.

[migya]

Like many others the last decade or so, he has missed much games and doesn't have much totality. He'd be close due to two way performance.

Don't see any case for Kawhi top 10. He has missed that much, hasn't played many games being less than even pre 1990s SFs, and his numbers certainly are no better than many top SFs. For example, he has no case to be above Rick Barry, who played more, was a two way great himself, and was clearly among the best players most seasons while playing most games.

Barry was generally a mediocre defender who saved his energy for the offensive end though he turned it up when he felt it was important. Also one of the greater jerks to play the game though how much that matters depends on how important you feel that it is. Offensively, a 3 level scorer for his day with excellent playmaking skills, like the 60s/70s version of Larry Bird and that's where he made his reputation.

Barry a very good defender. It isn't about personality but Butler has had issues in that regard.

[homecourtloss]

Hondo
Baylor

Azirin
Rick Barry


Worthy
Bird
Bernard King
Dantley
Alex English
Dr J
Chris Mullin
Grant Hill
Pippen

Pierce
KD
Kawhi
Melo
LeBron

Who does he bump off here?

100% put him over Wilkins who was one of the worst defenders of his era and not a very efficient scorer.

Put him over Worthy due to Butler’s two way impact (career RAPM has him in the 99th percentile) and peak play that reached very high highs

Put him easily over Melo

Put him easily over Grant Hill—maybe things would have been different without the injuries

Easily put him over Mullin who was a poor defender and his offense doesn’t put him over Bulter.

I’m an Alex English fan (one of my brother’s favorite players), but he never showed the two way impact of Butler nor got anywhere near Butler’s peak.

Put him over Dantley who at best a medicore defender. Put him over King who did not show any longevity nor did his offense overcome Butler’s two way impact.

Close with Pierce, Baylor, Hondo, and Kawhi (lower peak but long span span of impact play). PG13 right there as well as Barry.

LeBron

Bird
Dr. J/KD
Pippen
Kawhi
Baylor/Hondo/Butler/Pierce
Barry/PG13

[trex_8063]

Butler is better than these older guys like Hondo, Dantley, English, Baylor, etc.

I have him ranked higher than English or Dantley already, and I agree he peaked higher than any of them save maybe Baylor.

As for Hondo.......
Your opinion on "older guys" is well established. I know to you, Hondo was just a tall plumber whose very long arms were only useful in finding tough-to-reach areas under the sink. Mileage may vary for other posters. That aside, it's worth noting that Hondo played 1270 games and 46,471 minutes, compared to 869 games and 28,790 minutes for Butler.

Despite being in the league only 2 additional seasons relative to Butler (and when the season was marginally shorter some years), he's played FIVE FULL seasons worth more games, because his availability was almost never in question.

And that edge of 17,681 in minutes played is nothing to sneeze at. To put into perspective, here are some players you may have heard of whose ENTIRE CAREERS [at least thus far] are less than 17,681 minutes:

Joel Embiid
Bill Walton
Jamal Murray
Ralph Sampson

Also (just spit-ballin' names off the top of my head [thought of a number of role players on some of the championship teams of the last 30+ years, and went from there]):
John Paxson
Craig Hodges
Cliff Levingston
John Salley
Malik Rose
Jon Barry
Eric Murdock
.....and so on.


THat's not an insignificant consideration to people who have a total career value approach, in light of the fact that Havlicek was basically never less than a league average player [at worst], and also looms large in the annals of history for being a part of so many title teams.