Horry

[dhsilv2]

I was checking basketball reference - this guy really was in the playoffs all 16 years he was in the league? His teams also won at least 1 playoff series each year. How is this not Hall of Fame worthy? I mean either he’s the luckiest player on the planet or he has enough of a residual impact to help 16 teams in a row to the playoffs. 16 of 16! That’s crazy. Has anyone else ever done anything like this in the modern era - role player superstar or otherwise?

You really, I mean REALLY ask yourself this question.
Was Robert Horry one of the main reasons his team made it to the playoffs? Was Horry, the team's 3rd best player at least every time?
The guy has a career average of 7pts, 2 assists and under 5 rebounds per game.
Is he super clutch, making crucial 3's almost every time his team badly need a crucial basket? YES !!!
but let's not pretend that he also lacked the needed productivity to go to the HOF list. His career 3pt% for playoffs is under 36%.

Everytime is a heck of an ask.

By VORP
94 2nd
95 3rd
96 3rd
97 was traded mid year but was 3rd in BPM on the lakers
98 3rd
00 3rd
02 3rd
03 3rd

That's half his career and I"ll note that he was top 3 in BPM multiple times for the Spurs but others played far more minutes. BTW these are his 7 titles and his VORP rank on each team. Even in 2007 he was ahead of Parker despite being out of the league after the following season.

1994 2nd
1995 3rd
2000 3rd
2001 4th
2002 3rd
2005 3rd
2007 3rd

Now again, I don't see Horry as a hall guy. But there's a more than reasonable case he was a top 3 guy on 7 title teams, especially when you factor in VORP doesn't do his defense justice. As I noted earlier the 29 year XRAPM data has him in the 99th percentile there.

But name me a single guy who was never a top 10 level player who you could swap with Horry and have this kind of success? And while he's obviously luck as hell to have played with 3 of the best big men ever. Those big men were pretty darn lucky to have a stretch 4 before that was even a thing. And one who was an elite defender on top of that? Heck, Horry lead the Rockets in assists against the Knicks in 1994. Not bad for a jump shooter.

[dhsilv2]

A bit of both. He was a high level role player, who stepped up at the right times, particularly in the playoffs. Essentially, he established himself as a high level role player early on, and therefore contenders consistently wanted him on their teams. So he earned his way onto good teams by reputation in an era where only role players moved teams frequently, and had a lot of luck of getting onto the right contending teams. But we can't forget that he is still a role player. He wasn't suddenly going to carry teams that did not have star power above him in the pecking order.

One of these days someone is going to have to actual define "role player". Because saying someone is or isn't an all time great because of that and that alone is absurd.

The 29 year XRAPM data has Horry in the 99th percentile on defenses and the 95th overall. This despite missing some of his best years in Houston and having all his worst years (though as we know he's not alone in that with a 29 year sample). It's key to point out, Horry in his prime was not some guy filling in a small role on his teams. He was a foundational building block on defense. No, he was Hakeem or Duncan, but after those two he was as central to any of his teams defenses as anyone if not the next more important guy.

Offensively, today we might see the stretch 4 as a somewhat generic role type. But when Horry did it, he was revolutionizing the game. And the fact he stepped it up in the playoffs was all the more important and telling.

If Horry had played in the regular season like he did in the playoffs, he'd have a strong case to be ranked over a Horace Grant who's always one of the last guys in on the player comp board's top 100. Which would leave him outside the hall. But it would have him very much worthy of discussion and certainly not being dismissed by some absurd term that doesn't have any real meaning.

But most importantly, Horry was not just some guy filling a role. Teams were built around his unique talent in a way honestly half the hall guys I'm not sure you can say did. There were far more volume scorers in NBA history and elite defenders who could guard inside and out while stretching the floor before we knew that mattered so much. Throw in he could put the ball on the floor or post up in a pinch and even made some decent reads passing. This was a complete player.

No, you are right, Horry was good, I didn't want to say he was bad, but he was not one of those players who I thought would be a huge odd swinger, altho in moments, we could argue he was probably exactly that. But not like I thought Horry was the guy who put Lakers or Spurs over the top, he was a role player who did have legendary career.

As I broke down, he was consistently even for those teams the 3rd highest guy in playoff VORP. He 100% was the guy who put the 94 rockets over the top. And frankly...the spurs and laker's have less titles without Horry for sure.

I'll leave you with this thought. I can't think of a guy more dismissed as a role player, who got talked more about in "how do we replace him" than Horry for the spurs. 2008 was his final year and subsequently the spurs would lose in the first round 2 of the next 3 seasons, something Tim Duncan had never done (2000 doesn't count as Duncan was out). Now there's more to it than Horry, Manu had health issues. But the spurs legit struggled to figure things out once Horry left. I honestly think they could have replaced Parker far easier.

[Mirotic12]

No, you are right, Horry was good, I didn't want to say he was bad, but he was not one of those players who I thought would be a huge odd swinger, altho in moments, we could argue he was probably exactly that. But not like I thought Horry was the guy who put Lakers or Spurs over the top, he was a role player who did have legendary career.

In the EuroLeague and in FIBA competition, team success, clutchness, basketball IQ, playing your role to the maximum, defense, and those kinds of things matter much more than they do in the NBA for rating players.

In the NBA, those things are all secondary to indivudual stats, individual awards and accolades, career accumulated stats, those kinds of things, and then the winning and clutch factor and defense and other stuff is considered.

So just think how someone like Horry would be viewed through EuroLeague or even a FIBA national team point of view.

He would be seen probably as something like Georgios Printezis in EuroLeague, only better in every way, except post game. He would be seen as maybe something like small forward / power foward version of Rudy in FIBA, only with more winning and more clutch play, and more big shots.

It's just the media driven narratives of US sports media, that is basic stats obsessed, that basically negates someone like Horry.

He would still be considered a role player like Printezis and Rudy also were in EuroLeague and with their national teams, but the difference is that his important contributions to winning, while playing his role, wouldn't be counted for so little in player rating, as they are generally by NBA fans and media.

Printezis and Rudy were both role players on their pro club teams in EuroLeague, and on their national teams.

On the EuroLeague's official all time GOAT player vote poll (not the fan vote), Printezis was voted #15 and Rudy was voted #24.

If EuroLeague and FIBA competitions judged and rated players the same way the NBA does, neither of them would have even been eligible for the voting, because no role players would be.

Horry was like the ultimate role player, but since that's not properly valued by US sports media, he clearly does get the credit that he deserves for those 7 NBA championships.

[Chuck Everett]

Horry's contribution to winning doesn't feel like a coincidence. That's the best way I can put it.

[cupcakesnake]

Robert Horry was uniquely well suited to complement big interior scoring stars, and then became uniquely fortunate to spend his whole career playing next to them. He spent every single year of his career (minus a half season with the Suns) playing with Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaquille O'Neal, and Tim Duncan.

That's 3 of the top 10 players of all-time, all playing the positions Horry was built to play next to. Horry was a low-usage floor spacer and versatile defender. He was big enough to handle the big power forwards of his era, and quick enough to guard some more perimeter-oriented players. Putting Horry next to your big star, meant that big star could spend all their time nearer to the hoop, scoring a ton and rim-protecting a ton. There were not very many players like Robert Horry in the 90s or early 2000s. He was also smart enough to make passing reads in the triangle offense, and play with the Spurs as they increasingly emphasized ball movement.

He not only played with these great bigs, he caught all of their primes. Hakeem from 93-96 is basically his exact prime, at the exact years Horry played with him. Then he got Shaq from 1998-2003, magically leaving right before Shaq was about to start declining. He immediately joins a 27-year-old TIm Duncan. Yes, Horry helped those guys have big years. He let Duncan play more center minutes, and made post-passing and spacing very easy for Shaq and Hakeem. The timing though is also so fortunate.

Compare him to someone like Clifford Robinson (RIP Uncle Cliffy!). Very similar sized player who excelled at perimeter defense, and could shoot from the perimeter. Cliffy was like Horry with ball handling skills. He played with okay talent (drafted to a Clyde Drexler Blazers team and immediately went to the finals twice in his first 3 years.) He then spent the rest of his career on solid non-contending teams. Post-Barkley Suns, pre-Sheed Pistons, 2nd year Sheed Blazers. Imagine his career playing with prime Hakeem, prime Shaq, prime Duncan.

[Bornstellar]

I was checking basketball reference - this guy really was in the playoffs all 16 years he was in the league? His teams also won at least 1 playoff series each year. How is this not Hall of Fame worthy?

He played his entire career next to prime Hakeem Olajuwon, prime Shaq/Kobe, and prime Tim Duncan, that's how he made the playoffs every season. No, he is not a HOF player.

[druggas]

He absolutely is a HOFer. Without him hitting huge shots, those teams wouldn't have been as successful.

[bkkrh]

Yeah, pretty crazy accomplishment considering he played his whole career next to at least one top 20 All time player in his prime^^.

Also, to answer your Question, Karl Malone, John Stockton both made the playoffs in 19 of 19 seasons. This is also the highest amount of playoff appearances in general at the moment.

[Rust_Cohle]

Without Horry, Lakers don't ring in 2002, Spurs in 2005.

[parapooper]

Yeah, pretty crazy accomplishment considering he played his whole career next to at least one top 20 All time player in his prime^^.

Also, to answer your Question, Karl Malone, John Stockton both made the playoffs in 19 of 19 seasons. This is also the highest amount of playoff appearances in general at the moment.

Malone/Stockton lost in the first round tons of times.
Horry made at least the 2nd round in 100% of all seasons he played and won a ring in 44% of all seasons he played.
Malone/Stockton didn't get to eat on his watch.

[DukeLecker]

They don't induct you in the HOF for circumstance.

Michael cooper

[bkkrh]

Yeah, pretty crazy accomplishment considering he played his whole career next to at least one top 20 All time player in his prime^^.

Also, to answer your Question, Karl Malone, John Stockton both made the playoffs in 19 of 19 seasons. This is also the highest amount of playoff appearances in general at the moment.

Malone/Stockton lost in the first round tons of times.
Horry made at least the 2nd round in 100% of all seasons he played and won a ring in 44% of all seasons he played.
Malone/Stockton didn't get to eat on his watch.

Yeah, that career average of 7.9 points really was a game changer for those teams . Btw, let´s also not forget to put Derek Fisher in the HOF, he made it to the playoffs in 16 of 18 seasons and averaged 8.3 points, that´s 5% more than Horry.

[Dan33185]

They don't induct you in the HOF for circumstance.

That argument will be put to the test once Draymond's eligibility comes up

[dhsilv2]

Compare him to someone like Clifford Robinson (RIP Uncle Cliffy!). Very similar sized player who excelled at perimeter defense, and could shoot from the perimeter. Cliffy was like Horry with ball handling skills. He played with okay talent (drafted to a Clyde Drexler Blazers team and immediately went to the finals twice in his first 3 years.) He then spent the rest of his career on solid non-contending teams. Post-Barkley Suns, pre-Sheed Pistons, 2nd year Sheed Blazers. Imagine his career playing with prime Hakeem, prime Shaq, prime Duncan.

A decent comp but if we go back to the 29 year RAPM models, pulling xRAPM. I know we miss much of Robinson's prime here which is a problem. Still, 76th percentile on defense vs 99th for Horry. We can't under value that teammates likely are a factor here. Still Horry grades out slightly better on career block percentage and steal percentage.

That said, the difference in these two is the playoffs. Robinson fell off a cliff (pun intended) in them while Horry took over.

[dhsilv2]

Yeah, pretty crazy accomplishment considering he played his whole career next to at least one top 20 All time player in his prime^^.

Also, to answer your Question, Karl Malone, John Stockton both made the playoffs in 19 of 19 seasons. This is also the highest amount of playoff appearances in general at the moment.

Malone/Stockton lost in the first round tons of times.
Horry made at least the 2nd round in 100% of all seasons he played and won a ring in 44% of all seasons he played.
Malone/Stockton didn't get to eat on his watch.

Yeah, that career average of 7.9 points really was a game changer for those teams . Btw, let´s also not forget to put Derek Fisher in the HOF, he made it to the playoffs in 16 of 18 seasons and averaged 8.3 points, that´s 5% more than Horry.

Fisher was a pretty darn good player, but lets just compare their playoff stats.

VORP 4.5 vs 9.9
WS 14.6 vs 18.2
PER 12.0 vs 14.4
WS/48 .102 vs .128
BPM 0.6 vs 3.7

And just for context, Fisher actually played a few more minutes in the playoffs when comparing those metrics.

The two didn't mean the same to their teams and even their box stats are world's apart when it mattered. And then lets factor in that Horry was just a way better defender.

[dhsilv2]

They don't induct you in the HOF for circumstance.

That argument will be put to the test once Draymond's eligibility comes up

He's a DPOY with multiple all nba selections. You can argue for sure that he was in the right place for his talents. But lets not make any mistake, he's far more important to his teams than many many others in the hall.

[dhsilv2]

Without Horry, Lakers don't ring in 2002, Spurs in 2005.

Absolutely zero chance the rockets win in 1994.

[parapooper]

Yeah, pretty crazy accomplishment considering he played his whole career next to at least one top 20 All time player in his prime^^.

Also, to answer your Question, Karl Malone, John Stockton both made the playoffs in 19 of 19 seasons. This is also the highest amount of playoff appearances in general at the moment.

Malone/Stockton lost in the first round tons of times.
Horry made at least the 2nd round in 100% of all seasons he played and won a ring in 44% of all seasons he played.
Malone/Stockton didn't get to eat on his watch.

Yeah, that career average of 7.9 points really was a game changer for those teams . Btw, let´s also not forget to put Derek Fisher in the HOF, he made it to the playoffs in 16 of 18 seasons and averaged 8.3 points, that´s 5% more than Horry.

Good point, Fisher also beat the most 50-win teams out of anyone on the 2000s Lakers, so those 5 rings are clearly his as well.

[bkkrh]

Malone/Stockton lost in the first round tons of times.
Horry made at least the 2nd round in 100% of all seasons he played and won a ring in 44% of all seasons he played.
Malone/Stockton didn't get to eat on his watch.

Yeah, that career average of 7.9 points really was a game changer for those teams . Btw, let´s also not forget to put Derek Fisher in the HOF, he made it to the playoffs in 16 of 18 seasons and averaged 8.3 points, that´s 5% more than Horry.

Fisher was a pretty darn good player, but lets just compare their playoff stats.

VORP 4.5 vs 9.9
WS 14.6 vs 18.2
PER 12.0 vs 14.4
WS/48 .102 vs .128
BPM 0.6 vs 3.7

And just for context, Fisher actually played a few more minutes in the playoffs when comparing those metrics.

The two didn't mean the same to their teams and even their box stats are world's apart when it mattered. And then lets factor in that Horry was just a way better defender.

That wasn´t really my point. Fisher was a good player, Horry was definitely a better player but he is still miles away from being a Hall of Famer. He has not a single individual achievement. He was a bench player in 10 of 16 seasons and got one single 6th man of the year vote during that period. So not only was he never even close to being an All Star, he also was never even considered to be one of the best 6th men in the league.

He was a really good role player that hit some big shots. His reward for that are 7 titles were he can say that he hit some big shots that won some games. But there is a good chance that those teams would have still won a title without him, while there is 0 chance that a team would have won a title with him as the franchise player.

At this point we can also start talking about Bruce Bowen, Shane Battier or Tony Allen belonging in the hall of fame.

[cupcakesnake]

Compare him to someone like Clifford Robinson (RIP Uncle Cliffy!). Very similar sized player who excelled at perimeter defense, and could shoot from the perimeter. Cliffy was like Horry with ball handling skills. He played with okay talent (drafted to a Clyde Drexler Blazers team and immediately went to the finals twice in his first 3 years.) He then spent the rest of his career on solid non-contending teams. Post-Barkley Suns, pre-Sheed Pistons, 2nd year Sheed Blazers. Imagine his career playing with prime Hakeem, prime Shaq, prime Duncan.

A decent comp but if we go back to the 29 year RAPM models, pulling xRAPM. I know we miss much of Robinson's prime here which is a problem. Still, 76th percentile on defense vs 99th for Horry. We can't under value that teammates likely are a factor here. Still Horry grades out slightly better on career block percentage and steal percentage.

That said, the difference in these two is the playoffs. Robinson fell off a cliff (pun intended) in them while Horry took over.

By my eye, Horry always was a little better as a help defender, even if Cliffy looked more impressive defending perimeter matchups. Help defense value more often shows up in RAPM. I remember Cliffy looking pretty good still at age 35, guarding all over the floor, which allowed Ben Wallace to be unlocked as a pure rim protector.

I'm not sure what the point of comparing their playoff performances though because the roles on offense were so different. One guy showing up and successfully hitting his catch & shoot looks, is hard to compare to another guy operating as a 2nd option creating shot for himself. This guy was never good enough at some things on offense to fill the demands of that role. Horry was a WAY better 4th option than Robinson was a 2nd option. I tend to value stuff like that in direct comparisons between players in different roles. I think it fits in to the speculation of "how good was Horry?" though. What if someone like Clifford Robinson got to play in Horry's situation?