With the 31st pick, the Raptors select Jonathan Mogbo

[Dalek]

I am harsh in thinking Mogbo is a wasted pick

The dude has only completed one year and is at least 10th man material.

After Mogbo, I think Filipowski, Shead, Jaylen Wells, maybe a couple of others would be worth drafting. Getting two out of ~4-6 playable players from the 2nd round is a win. Filipowski without the Mormon GF issues is a 1st round pick and probably should have been taken over Ja'Kobe.

He is an excellent defender in space, but too small/light in the post to be a rim deterrer, and his offense game is that of a center and in the NBA it just doesn't fly so his floaters and layups stink against NBA length.

Centers tend to have better floaters/hook shots, are better at layups and overall decent around the basket. Most centers also can't really dribble or pass that well...so he's basically nothing like a center.

The goal wouldn't be to make him a big, it would be to make him a 3+D SF/small ball PF that can be a connective passer (not shot creator/playmaker). If he can develop his catch and shoot to a decent mark, he's a 3+D player.

People seem to like his passing, so maybe something is there. Overall, Mogbo got drafted because they dreamed of him being a mini Draymond Green. I absolutely hate that draft archetype. Draymond was one of one mainly because he played with the greatest offensive player in our generation.

This draft archetype in the 2nd round is ok..I would say it's the Thaddeus Young, Oso, Boris Diaw type. Mogbo specifically doesn't have a great shooting touch off the dribble or while he's moving, even if he's wide open, I'd be surprised if he could hit a floater, but he does have potential to improve his catch and shoot imo.

I have a list of guys I liked better than Mogbo and some of them haven't even played a ton of minutes yet:
Tyler Kolek (it is a matter of time before people see him as the next Payton Pritchard)
Ajay Mitchell (prior to injury was trending well analytically)
Jaylen Wells (proved he could start on a playfoff team)
Oso Ighodaro (bigger and more skilled passer than Mogbo)
Quentin Post/Filipowski (would have solved our back-up big issues)
Bobby Klintman (still a beliver in this guy if he gets mins - injured for most of last year in Det)

Mogbo to me gravitates to being closer to the basket as he attempted over 67% of his shots in the paint. He is not a guy who operates away from the basket unless in transition. If you think he dribbles well than I am not sure you have watched him enough. He has a very high dribble and lacks control.

The modern NBA has lots of examples of true Cs who can pass and we should target one, not try to make a hub for a guy which defenses will island off as he looks to make passes. If we wanted that we should have drafted Oso. Asking Mogbo to be a three and d wing is the dream. Let's see how he evolves. We are stuck watching regardless for the next few years.

[nikster]

Draymond has got to be the most underrated player of the last 10 years

Offensively, he's hard to judge because he's always played beside the greatest shooter and off-ball player of all time. His value as a "hub" doesn't exist if he doesn't get to play 4-on-3 as much as he does.

According to Stat Muse: Draymond Green has averaged 7.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists in 126 games for the Warriors without Stephen Curry in his career. I mean the man is a good facilitator and a great defender, but the gravity of Steph is very real.

Misleading because Curry missed most of his games at the start of the Drays career when he was bad, or late after he was washed. Plus in the context of his career averages it's really not a significant drop off.

Over 5 years from 2014-19 Dray averaged 10.2/7.6/6.6 in 33 games without Curry. His overall average in that period is 11/8.1/6.4, so basically no meaningful impact. Nobody ever brings up his playoff average without Curry either: 13.8/9.8/7.3 in 16 games

[XTC]

Offensively, he's hard to judge because he's always played beside the greatest shooter and off-ball player of all time. His value as a "hub" doesn't exist if he doesn't get to play 4-on-3 as much as he does.

According to Stat Muse: Draymond Green has averaged 7.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists in 126 games for the Warriors without Stephen Curry in his career. I mean the man is a good facilitator and a great defender, but the gravity of Steph is very real.

Misleading because Curry missed most of his games at the start of the Drays career when he was bad, or late after he was washed. Plus in the context of his career averages it's really not a significant drop off.

Over 5 years from 2014-19 Dray averaged 10.2/7.6/6.6 in 33 games without Curry. His overall average in that period is 11/8.1/6.4, so basically no meaningful impact. Nobody ever brings up his playoff average without Curry either: 13.8/9.8/7.3 in 16 games

Nobody also doesn't like to mention 2016 when Curry was injured to start the post season (games 2-4 vs Houston, Games 1-3 vs Portland) and averaged 18.7/10.6/7.9/1.1/1.6 and the Warriors went 5-2, and in the final game Draymond went off averaging 37/9/8

Draymond was mad underrated, and this narrative he's a product of Curry honestly needs to die.

[Dalek]

Offensively, he's hard to judge because he's always played beside the greatest shooter and off-ball player of all time. His value as a "hub" doesn't exist if he doesn't get to play 4-on-3 as much as he does.

According to Stat Muse: Draymond Green has averaged 7.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists in 126 games for the Warriors without Stephen Curry in his career. I mean the man is a good facilitator and a great defender, but the gravity of Steph is very real.

Misleading because Curry missed most of his games at the start of the Drays career when he was bad, or late after he was washed. Plus in the context of his career averages it's really not a significant drop off.

Over 5 years from 2014-19 Dray averaged 10.2/7.6/6.6 in 33 games without Curry. His overall average in that period is 11/8.1/6.4, so basically no meaningful impact. Nobody ever brings up his playoff average without Curry either: 13.8/9.8/7.3 in 16 games

That's a good point. He had mediocre averages even with Curry or without. If I told you player X could average 10/7/7 and shoot 32% from three for his career and be a good defender you basically have Ben Simmons. No one could build around that guy, but if he was healthy and playing with Steph and Klay he would have had a better career.

Warriors also had guys like Kevon Looney eating up minutes, and Iggy who were non shooter/ball movers but they were effective because of Curry and Klay creating gravity.

[nikster]

According to Stat Muse: Draymond Green has averaged 7.9 points, 6.7 rebounds and 5.9 assists in 126 games for the Warriors without Stephen Curry in his career. I mean the man is a good facilitator and a great defender, but the gravity of Steph is very real.

Misleading because Curry missed most of his games at the start of the Drays career when he was bad, or late after he was washed. Plus in the context of his career averages it's really not a significant drop off.

Over 5 years from 2014-19 Dray averaged 10.2/7.6/6.6 in 33 games without Curry. His overall average in that period is 11/8.1/6.4, so basically no meaningful impact. Nobody ever brings up his playoff average without Curry either: 13.8/9.8/7.3 in 16 games

That's a good point. He had mediocre averages even with Curry or without. If I told you player X could average 10/7/7 and shoot 32% from three for his career and be a good defender you basically have Ben Simmons. No one could build around that guy, but if he was healthy and playing with Steph and Klay he would have had a better career.

Warriors also had guys like Kevon Looney eating up minutes, and Iggy who were non shooter/ball movers but they were effective because of Curry and Klay creating gravity.

Like I said RAPM points to him as a top 8 impact player for 5 straight years. No hes not a star you build an offense around, and nobody claims that. But the Warriors have certainly built the defense around him and he's consistently been one of the most impactful players in the league.

And some people want to dismiss him with a cursory look at basic counting stats. So might point stands, he is genrtally very underrated

[RoteSchroder]

I have a list of guys I liked better than Mogbo and some of them haven't even played a ton of minutes yet:
Tyler Kolek (it is a matter of time before people see him as the next Payton Pritchard)
Ajay Mitchell (prior to injury was trending well analytically)
Jaylen Wells (proved he could start on a playfoff team)
Oso Ighodaro (bigger and more skilled passer than Mogbo)
Quentin Post/Filipowski (would have solved our back-up big issues)
Bobby Klintman (still a beliver in this guy if he gets mins - injured for most of last year in Det)

Mogbo to me gravitates to being closer to the basket as he attempted over 67% of his shots in the paint. He is not a guy who operates away from the basket unless in transition. If you think he dribbles well than I am not sure you have watched him enough. He has a very high dribble and lacks control.

The modern NBA has lots of examples of true Cs who can pass and we should target one, not try to make a hub for a guy which defenses will island off as he looks to make passes. If we wanted that we should have drafted Oso. Asking Mogbo to be a three and d wing is the dream. Let's see how he evolves. We are stuck watching regardless for the next few years.

Out of the players you listed, Mitchell and Mogbo have the best defensive metrics (not counting Klintman as over half his minutes are from the final game of the season). I think that's a good starting point.

Some of the guys you listed still need to prove themselves, especially Kolek..dude needs to show he can score in the NBA, otherwise he's just Malachi Flynn. I don't see how it's different from Mogbo still requiring some development/improvement. Passing without the ability to score or score efficiently isn't that useful. This goes for Draymond, Scottie, Mogbo as well. It's good to have decent passing, but ultimately, you're easily replaceable on offense in the NBA if you can only chuck the ball at below average efficiency.

Oso would not work well on our team in the long term. He has zero outside shooting potential and is undersized at C. He would basically be Thaddeus Young for us without a jump shot. He went to one of the only teams in the league that really needs his services.

Post is valuable as a 3 point shooter, but opposing teams sometimes target him on defense. Off the bench in the regular season he was ok, but as seen in the playoffs, he wasn't ready to play defense there. Take it from Warrior fans:

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1kge171/why_trade_for_a_big_center_when_we_already_have/

His issues are obvious: he is severely unathletic, can barely jump for a dunk without a running headstart, is very weak in the post when it comes to rebounding, gets moved easily, and can barely jump an inch off the floor if you put a body on him. His anticipation of where rebounds are going to go is also horrible. Think of guys like looney and Steph, both of whom are so great at knowing where it's gonna go

Quentin Post cannot step up defensively to cover our team’s weaknesses around the paint. That’s why the Houston Sengun-Adams lineup ate us alive.

Don’t get me wrong, love Post man the value he brings from where he was drafted. But the dude isn’t very athletic, can’t rebound, can’t defend, and isn’t very good at scoring in the paint.

If his shots not falling he doesn’t really add anything besides spacing. Hope he continues to develop and shoots it well this series

He's got some holes in his game and is probably good in a platoon role with a more athletic big that is a rim runner, rebounder, and shot blocker

The big thing is he just needs time he's simply not ready to play defense in the playoffs offensively he's a knock down 3 point shooter which covers up his other flaws on offense but the defense is what kept him off the floor and that's really something that comes with time.

You think Quinten Post is the answer? He’s a nice 12 mpg floor spacer, but you’re kidding yourself if you think his presence means we shouldn’t try and improve

The grass isn't always greener and we need another interior defender after Poeltl. I think becoming a >35% catch and shoot 3 pointer for Mogbo is slightly more achievable than Post becoming a good defender/rebounder. It's basically the only thing Mogbo needs to work on to become a viable championship caliber 8th man. We don't really need him to work on a mid-range game, floaters and what not at the moment.

[XTC]

I have a list of guys I liked better than Mogbo and some of them haven't even played a ton of minutes yet:
Tyler Kolek (it is a matter of time before people see him as the next Payton Pritchard)
Ajay Mitchell (prior to injury was trending well analytically)
Jaylen Wells (proved he could start on a playfoff team)
Oso Ighodaro (bigger and more skilled passer than Mogbo)
Quentin Post/Filipowski (would have solved our back-up big issues)
Bobby Klintman (still a beliver in this guy if he gets mins - injured for most of last year in Det)

Mogbo to me gravitates to being closer to the basket as he attempted over 67% of his shots in the paint. He is not a guy who operates away from the basket unless in transition. If you think he dribbles well than I am not sure you have watched him enough. He has a very high dribble and lacks control.

The modern NBA has lots of examples of true Cs who can pass and we should target one, not try to make a hub for a guy which defenses will island off as he looks to make passes. If we wanted that we should have drafted Oso. Asking Mogbo to be a three and d wing is the dream. Let's see how he evolves. We are stuck watching regardless for the next few years.

Out of the players you listed, Mitchell and Mogbo have the best defensive metrics (not counting Klintman as over half his minutes are from the final game of the season). I think that's a good starting point.

Some of the guys you listed still need to prove themselves, especially Kolek..dude needs to show he can score in the NBA, otherwise he's just Malachi Flynn. I don't see how it's different from Mogbo still requiring some development/improvement. Passing without the ability to score or score efficiently isn't that useful. This goes for Draymond, Scottie, Mogbo as well. It's good to have decent passing, but ultimately, you're easily replaceable on offense in the NBA if you can only chuck the ball at below average efficiency.

Oso would not work well on our team in the long term. He has zero outside shooting potential and is undersized at C. He would basically be Thaddeus Young for us without a jump shot. He went to one of the only teams in the league that really needs his services.

Post is valuable as a 3 point shooter, but opposing teams sometimes target him on defense. Off the bench in the regular season he was ok, but as seen in the playoffs, he wasn't ready to play defense there. Take it from Warrior fans:

https://www.reddit.com/r/warriors/comments/1kge171/why_trade_for_a_big_center_when_we_already_have/

His issues are obvious: he is severely unathletic, can barely jump for a dunk without a running headstart, is very weak in the post when it comes to rebounding, gets moved easily, and can barely jump an inch off the floor if you put a body on him. His anticipation of where rebounds are going to go is also horrible. Think of guys like looney and Steph, both of whom are so great at knowing where it's gonna go

Quentin Post cannot step up defensively to cover our team’s weaknesses around the paint. That’s why the Houston Sengun-Adams lineup ate us alive.

Don’t get me wrong, love Post man the value he brings from where he was drafted. But the dude isn’t very athletic, can’t rebound, can’t defend, and isn’t very good at scoring in the paint.

If his shots not falling he doesn’t really add anything besides spacing. Hope he continues to develop and shoots it well this series

He's got some holes in his game and is probably good in a platoon role with a more athletic big that is a rim runner, rebounder, and shot blocker

The big thing is he just needs time he's simply not ready to play defense in the playoffs offensively he's a knock down 3 point shooter which covers up his other flaws on offense but the defense is what kept him off the floor and that's really something that comes with time.

You think Quinten Post is the answer? He’s a nice 12 mpg floor spacer, but you’re kidding yourself if you think his presence means we shouldn’t try and improve

The grass isn't always greener and we need another interior defender after Poeltl. I think becoming a >35% catch and shoot 3 pointer for Mogbo is slightly more achievable than Post becoming a good defender/rebounder. It's basically the only thing Mogbo needs to work on to become a viable championship caliber 8th man. We don't really need him to work on a mid-range game, floaters and what not at the moment.

Mogbo's defense is starting to get to underrated territory. Kid covers so much ground defensively thanks to his size, length, and athleticism. He was #2 in deflections per game on this team despite only playing 20 MPG. He showed he has the strength to defend the post, and he was fantastic switching out onto the perimeter onto smaller players. He has all defensive potential, he's already good enough to defend the opposing teams best player, and he's a fantastic team defender. He was easily our most effective rookie this past year. Mogbo is an easy 1st rounder in a redraft

[Thaddy]

A big years coming up for Mogbo. I have him as the back up 4 ahead of CMB. His finishing ability looks much better. I have a feeling they've put aside his shot and focused on his touch instead. Ball handling and finishing improvements would make him a great fit next to Mamu.

[GLF]

A big years coming up for Mogbo. I have him as the back up 4 ahead of CMB. His finishing ability looks much better. I have a feeling they've put aside his shot and focused on his touch instead. Ball handling and finishing improvements would make him a great fit next to Mamu.

I do agree that he showed improvement with the finishing in the paint in summer league, not so much the ball handling. But why would he be ahead of CMB when CMB is already better at him at both those things and is also a great defender lol. There is literally nothing Mogbo does better than CMB other than maybe ISO defence on perimeter players. Now if he shows to be better than CMB this season cool, but I wouldn’t put him ahead of CMB yet. Cause the improvements he has to make offensively to not be an extreme liability is significant. His finishing in there was horrendous. Not just bad, but horrendous. Especially for a big man. Improving that finishing might take more than one offseason bc of how bad it was. He will get minutes here and there regardless though because of his defence. I think there will be times maybe we have to play him and CMB instead of Mamu and CMB bc Mamu’s defence may be hurting us too much that game for example.

[Thaddy]

A big years coming up for Mogbo. I have him as the back up 4 ahead of CMB. His finishing ability looks much better. I have a feeling they've put aside his shot and focused on his touch instead. Ball handling and finishing improvements would make him a great fit next to Mamu.

I do agree that he showed improvement with the finishing in the paint in summer league, not so much the ball handling. But why would he be ahead of CMB when CMB is already better at him at both those things and is also a great defender lol. There is literally nothing Mogbo does better than CMB other than maybe ISO defence on perimeter players. Now if he shows to be better than CMB this season cool, but I wouldn’t put him ahead of CMB yet. Cause the improvements he has to make offensively to not be an extreme liability is significant. His finishing in there was horrendous. Not just bad, but horrendous. Especially for a big man. Improving that finishing might take more than one offseason bc of how bad it was. He will get minutes here and there regardless though because of his defence. I think there will be times maybe we have to play him and CMB instead of Mamu and CMB bc Mamu’s defence may be hurting us too much that game for example.

His finishing ability looks at least average now. It'll be enough to put him ahead of CMB. Mogbo had a triple double last year. I don't think CMB can do that yet.

[tsherkin]

His finishing ability looks at least average now. It'll be enough to put him ahead of CMB. Mogbo had a triple double last year. I don't think CMB can do that yet.

Why?

As to the triple double, I mean, that's about as an empty evaluation as one can find. Using a one-game analysis doesn't make any sense, particularly when CMB has a lot more polish in other areas.

[Thaddy]

His finishing ability looks at least average now. It'll be enough to put him ahead of CMB. Mogbo had a triple double last year. I don't think CMB can do that yet.

Why?

As to the triple double, I mean, that's about as an empty evaluation as one can find. Using a one-game analysis doesn't make any sense, particularly when CMB has a lot more polish in other areas.

CMB hasn't played a single game yet. I see Mogbo being better than him in year one and even improving. Rookies usually build on their prior year and Mogbo looks like he's double down on significant weaknesses like finishing. I would bet he does better than CMB next year.

[tsherkin]

CMB hasn't played a single game yet. I see Mogbo being better than him in year one and even improving. Rookies usually build on their prior year and Mogbo looks like he's double down on significant weaknesses like finishing. I would bet he does better than CMB next year.

Given Mogbo's limitations, I'd actually bet CMB does better than him, honestly.

[YogurtProducer]

His finishing ability looks at least average now. It'll be enough to put him ahead of CMB. Mogbo had a triple double last year. I don't think CMB can do that yet.

Why?

As to the triple double, I mean, that's about as an empty evaluation as one can find. Using a one-game analysis doesn't make any sense, particularly when CMB has a lot more polish in other areas.

CMB hasn't played a single game yet. I see Mogbo being better than him in year one and even improving. Rookies usually build on their prior year and Mogbo looks like he's double down on significant weaknesses like finishing. I would bet he does better than CMB next year.

It would be a shock, and an utter disappointment, if CMB is worse than Mogbo this year.

I mean, SUPER small sample alert, but CMB already cleared him in summer league despite it being his first processional experience.

[ConSarnit]

Why?

As to the triple double, I mean, that's about as an empty evaluation as one can find. Using a one-game analysis doesn't make any sense, particularly when CMB has a lot more polish in other areas.

CMB hasn't played a single game yet. I see Mogbo being better than him in year one and even improving. Rookies usually build on their prior year and Mogbo looks like he's double down on significant weaknesses like finishing. I would bet he does better than CMB next year.

It would be a shock, and an utter disappointment, if CMB is worse than Mogbo this year.

I mean, SUPER small sample alert, but CMB already cleared him in summer league despite it being his first processional experience.

Agreed. CMB already looks better than Mogbo. That doesn’t even take into account the fact that we are likely far more invested in CMB than Mogbo given where they were drafted and that probably gets reflected in playing time.

[tsherkin]

It would be a shock, and an utter disappointment, if CMB is worse than Mogbo this year.

I mean, SUPER small sample alert, but CMB already cleared him in summer league despite it being his first processional experience.

Right? I'm pretty confident that CMB is going to be immediately the better player.

Agreed. CMB already looks better than Mogbo. That doesn’t even take into account the fact that we are likely far more invested in CMB than Mogbo given where they were drafted and that probably gets reflected in playing time.

Yeah, I mean, it makes plenty of sense to give CMB as much developmental time as they can manage without costing us games... and frankly, it seems likely that he'll be a net positive as long as we don't ask too much from him as a scorer this early (which we likely will not).

[Tripod]

I don't see any situation where I will be thinking "get CMB out and get Mogbo in"

[youngRAPZ]

CMB will be the first big off the bench guaranteed 10 games into the season.


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[YogurtProducer]

CMB will be the first big off the bench guaranteed 10 games into the season.


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****, I fully expect CMB will start if one of Ingram/Barnes/Poeltl misses a game to.

[youngRAPZ]

CMB will be the first big off the bench guaranteed 10 games into the season.


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****, I fully expect CMB will start if one of Ingram/Barnes/Poeltl misses a game to.

Agreed


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