Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[ball_takes23]

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

[parapooper]

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

All-star selections are popularity contests, all-NBA selections are too but at least incorporate some objectivity (see Kobe 2014-16)
I mean Melo was an AS every year and was so bad (bottom 1% playoff impact) he would actually more than cancel out a legit all-NBA player.
Who cares who had the more popular team mates?

The facts remain:
Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but an NBA team consists of over a dozen players and a bunch of coaches, so only looking at 0 to 2 of them to judge how good a team is seems pretty nutty.
Then not even looking at how those 0 to 2 team members performed but only how popular they were just adds another level of dumb.

Selectively pinpointing ALL NBA is not facts. Facts are not looking at 16 years of LeBron's career to prove a point and then using the extra season's stats as a determining factor in any debate. If you were to include 4 of ADs ALL NBA seasons that makes 8 to 2 All NBA teammates.

Popularity contest or not, the popular opinion is Lebron has had better players than Jordan. To dismiss All Star selections as a comparative of talent is absurd.

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but Dwyane Wade ,Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic are All NBA talents and were while playing with Lebron. Since you're pointing out players 3-15 why don't you back your statement up with stats and reasoning on how Lebron's teammates from 3-15 were worse than Jordans. Same with Steph and Kobe.

I don't think my point is really debatable and it seems to be the point you're avoiding to argue. Lebron has hand selected better teammates than Jordan, Steph and/or Kobe.

I say this all with always adding to my point that I think Lebron was a GOAT level talent. His "decisions" have diminished the perception of his championships as John Stockton had mentioned.

LeBron had 1 prime healthy year with healthy AD.

I have looked into whole team analysis before and Lebron did have worse teams
Here is one I did with some awkward calculations (but correct) using the old BPM:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=52420156#p52420156
Showing that there is generally almost no correlation between superstar performance and titles and almost perfect correlation between opposition vs supporting cast gap (provided you have a prime superstar)
With new BPM the gap is less (BPM was pretty obviously changed to make LBJ look worse and MJ better IMO) but still MJs rings were clearly easier even with the new BPM/VORP (no post on that)

Of course Lebron picked better team mates, while for other stars their management picked better team mates - since Lebron sucks at GMing (but less than Cavs managment) and does not have the ability/time to put together a whole well-synergizing team this is overall a disadvantage for him
How is getting handed stuff better than getting out of a crap situation on your own initiative? It's like Donald Trump saying, I got Billions of $ without having to quit on my home country like that despicable Elon Musk.

What would his perception have been had he never won (like Jordan without Pippen) in his entire career?

[DimesandKnicks]

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

You are failing to see the point.

Lebrons teammates with All Star Selections- 24
Jordan teammates with All Star Selections- 8
Kobe teammates with All Star Selections- 16
Steph teammates with All Star Selections- 15

I am comparing All-star selections while playing with said player not comparing Total number of All Stars andor total number of All star selections. The broader context in this is he played with more All-star at the prime of the careers.

Yea, because he played with more teams. If Jordan, Kobe and Curry played with shorty organization and left via free agency or trades they’d be up there too. Also consider Kobe and Steph played with organizations that were able to get him that many allstars, while in Jordan’s prime we always had two all nba talents with him. The same can’t be said for LeBron’s peak

[DOT]

I think the math on the All Star selections shows the inherent bias, cause it's counting All Star appearances made by LeBron's teammates when they didn't play together

Wade didn't make 5 AS games with LeBron, he made 4
AD didn't make 5 AS games with LeBron, he made 4 as well
Bosh is accurate
Love is accurate
Kyrie is accurate
Ray Allen didn't make 2 AS games with LeBron, he made 0 (this is the most egregious teammate that MJ stans always bring up for some reason)
Mo is accurate
Big Z didn't make 2 AS games with LeBron, he made 1

So it's not 9 vs 24, it's 9 vs 19. Which would still more or less prove the same point, why do you have to lie about it?

Furthermore, I would point out that 8 of those AS teammates came in 4 years in Miami. So in 18 non-Miami years, LeBron has had 11 teammates make the All Star game. We also have to adjust MJ down 1 because Pippen made the 95 AS team, the year MJ didn't play. Let's also ignore his Wizards tenure

I won't deny the Miami tenure being more help than MJ got at the top of the roster, but it's much closer outside of that time

11 AS teammates in 18 non-Miami seasons for LeBron (only 1 season he had multiple AS teammates was 2017) compared to 8 AS teammates in 13 non-Washington seasons for MJ

And as to the point of this thread, in terms of "sticking it out", only 2 of those AS teammates came before he went to Miami, which was 7 years (meaning 8 of his last 11 seasons he's had at least 1 All Star teammate)

Again, not discounting the Miami years, just saying people act like he had multiple AS teammates every year, when in reality nearly half of his AS teammates were Wade and Bosh in the 4 Miami years, and he only had 1 season (2017) with multiple AS teammates.

[DimesandKnicks]

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

[MightyMouse10]

All-star selections are popularity contests, all-NBA selections are too but at least incorporate some objectivity (see Kobe 2014-16)
I mean Melo was an AS every year and was so bad (bottom 1% playoff impact) he would actually more than cancel out a legit all-NBA player.
Who cares who had the more popular team mates?

The facts remain:
Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but an NBA team consists of over a dozen players and a bunch of coaches, so only looking at 0 to 2 of them to judge how good a team is seems pretty nutty.
Then not even looking at how those 0 to 2 team members performed but only how popular they were just adds another level of dumb.

Selectively pinpointing ALL NBA is not facts. Facts are not looking at 16 years of LeBron's career to prove a point and then using the extra season's stats as a determining factor in any debate. If you were to include 4 of ADs ALL NBA seasons that makes 8 to 2 All NBA teammates.

Popularity contest or not, the popular opinion is Lebron has had better players than Jordan. To dismiss All Star selections as a comparative of talent is absurd.

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but Dwyane Wade ,Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic are All NBA talents and were while playing with Lebron. Since you're pointing out players 3-15 why don't you back your statement up with stats and reasoning on how Lebron's teammates from 3-15 were worse than Jordans. Same with Steph and Kobe.

I don't think my point is really debatable and it seems to be the point you're avoiding to argue. Lebron has hand selected better teammates than Jordan, Steph and/or Kobe.

I say this all with always adding to my point that I think Lebron was a GOAT level talent. His "decisions" have diminished the perception of his championships as John Stockton had mentioned.

LeBron had 1 prime healthy year with healthy AD.

I have looked into whole team analysis before and Lebron did have worse teams
Here is one I did with some awkward calculations (but correct) using the old BPM:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=52420156#p52420156
Showing that there is generally almost no correlation between superstar performance and titles and almost perfect correlation between opposition vs supporting cast gap (provided you have a prime superstar)
With new BPM the gap is less (BPM was pretty obviously changed to make LBJ look worse and MJ better IMO) but still MJs rings were clearly easier even with the new BPM/VORP (no post on that)

Of course Lebron picked better team mates, while for other stars their management picked better team mates - since Lebron sucks at GMing (but less than Cavs managment) and does not have the ability/time to put together a whole well-synergizing team this is overall a disadvantage for him
How is getting handed stuff better than getting out of a crap situation on your own initiative? It's like Donald Trump saying, I got Billions of $ without having to quit on my home country like that despicable Elon Musk.

What would his perception have been had he never won (like Jordan without Pippen) in his entire career?

I think BPM new or old is not a good indicator of talent on a team. This is my argument. You're using stats that wouldn't necessarily translate the same if the players were place in different situations.

Cancel fit, cancel performance objectively speaking the players Lebron has played with are much more talented than anyone Jordan, Kobe and/or Steph played with as a whole. I'll give you an example to look at stats alone is discounting the fact that Wade had won a championship on his own already, with less talent than Lebron had. It also doesn't help his case that he conveniently left for as Stockton said, "greener pastures".

Your last line is my argument exactly. Everyone assumes he would have won zero rings had he stayed with the Cavs. How do we know that? How do we know he doesn't lead that team to a championship? I personally thinks he or the NBA would have found a way to get 4 had he stayed but everyone just assumes it would have been zero. Which is what I have been saying all along, we will never know and that is why in my opinion it puts a ceiling on where he should be ranked All-time. This is the point of the thread, what john stockton said. This is the opinion of many ppl, its not wrong, it's based on the perception of the "decisions".

I'll give you another example, I think KD is someone who had GOAT potential talent. His "decisions" along with his performance in set scenarios have also removed him from the GOAT conversation.

[Iwasawitness]

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I stopped reading the moment you said Ray Allen made two all star appearances while playing with LeBron. In fact your math is off on quite a few of these.

Wade, five all star selections playing with LeBron? He had four, not five.

AD five? No, three.

Irving only had two, not three.

That's a difference of 6 all star appearances right there, bringing it down to 19.

Now I don't know what the rest of your post is about, nor do I care. The simple fact of the matter is the going off of just all star teammates is a HORRIBLE way to judge and compare just how much help someone had compared to others. Three of the all star teammates you name for LeBron happened during seasons where he wasn't even in the finals. Hell, Mo Williams wasn't anywhere close to being an all star quality player (to be fair, neither was BJ Armstrong). LeBrons teams, for the most part, were terrible without him. MJs on the other hand was a 55 win team in one and above .500 in another. So no, I REALLY don't care how much all star teammates LeBron had, especially when he's been on three completely different teams. This is just an incredibly lazy analysis.

[MightyMouse10]

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?

Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I stopped reading the moment you said Ray Allen made two all star appearances while playing with LeBron. In fact your math is off on quite a few of these.

Wade, five all star selections playing with LeBron? He had four, not five.

AD five? No, three.

Irving only had two, not three.

That's a difference of 6 all star appearances right there, bringing it down to 19.

Now I don't know what the rest of your post is about, nor do I care. The simple fact of the matter is the going off of just all star teammates is a HORRIBLE way to judge and compare just how much help someone had compared to others. Three of the all star teammates you name for LeBron happened during seasons where he wasn't even in the finals. Hell, Mo Williams wasn't anywhere close to being an all star quality player (to be fair, neither was BJ Armstrong). LeBrons teams, for the most part, were terrible without him. MJs on the other hand was a 55 win team in one and above .500 in another. So no, I REALLY don't care how much all star teammates LeBron had, especially when he's been on three completely different teams. This is just an incredibly lazy analysis.

Source for that was chatgpt. Lazy in that aspect correct, but Im confident the corrections will show a similar discrepancy. You're deflecting from the point of thread here. Which is that Lebron's championships are diminished.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

[Iwasawitness]

The major point of my argument is; Outside of Pippen, no supporting cast of Jordan compares to what Lebron had.

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

Thats 9 versus 24. Not including the fact he had Luka this year who didn't make the All-star team due to injury.

Lets do the same with Kobe and Steph so we're not using just Jordan

Kobe
Shaquille O’Neal 1996–2004 (8 seasons together) 8 All-star selections
Pau Gasol 2008–2014 (6 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Metta World Peace 2009–2013 (4 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Lamar Odom 2004–2011 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Thats 16

Steph(who played in the same era and has the same amount of rings if you want to count the bubble ring)

Klay Thompson 2012–present (12 seasons together) 6 All-star selections
Draymond Green 2014–present (10 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Durant 2016–2019 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Andre Iguodala 2013–2019 (6 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
Andrew Wiggins 2022–present (2 seasons together) 1 All-star selections

Thats 15

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

We can structure the narrative how we want. The fact is Lebron has had better teammates for their best periods in their career comparatively to Jordan's teammates. Curious to know why you stopped at 16 seasons? Do you count all of Lebron's points, assists, rebounds past 16 seasons?

I want to also state I am a fan of both players not one. I think Lebron is better than both Kobe and Steph which is why i think his own choices diminished his own career trajectory. We will never know what he could have done without all the different help he has had.

I stopped reading the moment you said Ray Allen made two all star appearances while playing with LeBron. In fact your math is off on quite a few of these.

Wade, five all star selections playing with LeBron? He had four, not five.

AD five? No, three.

Irving only had two, not three.

That's a difference of 6 all star appearances right there, bringing it down to 19.

Now I don't know what the rest of your post is about, nor do I care. The simple fact of the matter is the going off of just all star teammates is a HORRIBLE way to judge and compare just how much help someone had compared to others. Three of the all star teammates you name for LeBron happened during seasons where he wasn't even in the finals. Hell, Mo Williams wasn't anywhere close to being an all star quality player (to be fair, neither was BJ Armstrong). LeBrons teams, for the most part, were terrible without him. MJs on the other hand was a 55 win team in one and above .500 in another. So no, I REALLY don't care how much all star teammates LeBron had, especially when he's been on three completely different teams. This is just an incredibly lazy analysis.

Source for that was chatgpt. Lazy in that aspect correct, but Im confident the corrections will show a similar discrepancy.

They don't. Again, going entirely off of just all star appearances is a lazy analysis.

[Rust_Cohle]

Lebron stayed with a badly-run, hopeless, bad-weather, small-market team longer than everyone else of the top10+ GOATs _combined_ (despite getting more criticism for not winning than everyone else of the top1000+ GOATs combined while there)

MJ ran away from one of the cushiest situations in NBA history, then ran back to one of the cushiest situations in NBA history, then again ran away from one of the cushiest situations in NBA history ....

Bulls were 34-31 with just a month left in the season when MJ returned in 1995

Cool, you addressed 10% of my post above as if that changes the other 90%
Plus - joining a supporting cast that already has a winning record without you and without DPOY-level, GOAT-level rebounder Rodman isn't exactly taking the hard route. 34-31 is a lot better than Jordans non-Pippen teams _with_ Jordan (29-36 record on average scale to same game number).

Lebron never joined a team that was guaranteed to be playoff-bound even without him. The Kyrie-Love superteam for instance had a 4-23 record without Lebron - that would scale to 10-55 vs. the 34-31 '95 Bulls before Jordan and later Rodman were added. And MJ exited in the 2nd round with a supporting cast that was winning without him, against a team with 2 more wins than his usual supporting cast with Grant managed the year before.

You can't be serious. Miami were literally a 5th seed when LeBron joined and had a finals mvp. And then he asked them to add a 7 time all star in Bosh.

As for Rodman, he was almost out of the league in 1995 hence why he could be had for as little as Will Purdue. Many teams didn't want to deal with his antics. While an amazing defender, he didn't have 7 all star selections like Bosh when he joined. Just 2.

As for a supporting cast winning without MJ, let's take a closer look:



The ‘93 Bulls’ rORTG - 4.9, 2nd ranked
The ‘94 Bulls’ rORTG - -0.2, 14th ranked
The ‘95 Bulls’ rORTG - 1.2, 10th ranked
The ‘96 Bulls’ rORTG - 7.6, 1st ranked

There’s a clear, in fact aggressive correlation between Jordan’s presence on and off the team, and whether he spent a full season’s worth of time with them.


They won games in ‘94 because they had two DPOY-caliber forwards, the best coach in the league, and much-needed career years from B.J. Armstrong and a rookie Toni Kukoč.

Cavs were playing .500 ball without Love while keeping LeBron:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/22787218/lebron-james-cleveland-cavaliers-says-misses-having-injured-kevin-love-playing-alongside-him

[Cavsfansince84]

AD made 4 all star teams with LeBron
Kyrie made 2
Big Z made 1 where I think he was last minute replacement
Ray made 0
Wade made 4

Also, in terms of impact Grant absolutely was better than Bosh or Love. He used similar shot volume on much better efficiency and then was a much better rebounder + defender(Love could rebound but not really defend, Bosh was the opposite). He couldn't possibly carry a team as a #1 scorer like those two did before but as a #3 he was a better fit/player. Then you have guys like Kukoc(best 6th man in the league at that time), Kerr off the bench(career best 3pt shooter even now) but the big thing is coaching. The Bulls had a goat hc with goat assistants that compensated for a lot of things.

I stated Selections not appearances. I dont agree with Grant> Love but respect the point. I would also suggest the majority of people would agree with me.

So you are honestly counting 2018 Wade as an all star season in which he played just 46 games at 23mpg and was beyond washed as an all star teammate for LeBron while he also got traded before the playoffs? I mean, maybe, just maybe while claiming to be objective in this are using a terrible method of trying to compare teammates while trying to make the point of how much more talented LeBron's supporting casts were. This doesn't make you appear all that objective when you do that. It's just absurd. Also, Grant was way underrated in terms of all star games and he's also the guy who Johnny Bach(architect of the 1st 3 peat defense) considered the best defender on those teams. So I mean it's fine to pick a criteria for measuring teammates and using it but it honestly means next to nothing when used in the way you used it here. You gotta do better if you wanna say how objective you are trying to be in your analysis.

[Yank3525]

Bulls were 34-31 with just a month left in the season when MJ returned in 1995

Cool, you addressed 10% of my post above as if that changes the other 90%
Plus - joining a supporting cast that already has a winning record without you and without DPOY-level, GOAT-level rebounder Rodman isn't exactly taking the hard route. 34-31 is a lot better than Jordans non-Pippen teams _with_ Jordan (29-36 record on average scale to same game number).

Lebron never joined a team that was guaranteed to be playoff-bound even without him. The Kyrie-Love superteam for instance had a 4-23 record without Lebron - that would scale to 10-55 vs. the 34-31 '95 Bulls before Jordan and later Rodman were added. And MJ exited in the 2nd round with a supporting cast that was winning without him, against a team with 2 more wins than his usual supporting cast with Grant managed the year before.

You can't be serious. Miami were literally a 5th seed when LeBron joined and had a finals mvp.

As for Rodman, he was almost out of the league in 1995 hence why he could be had for as little as Will Purdue. Many teams didn't want to deal with his antics. While an amazing defender, he didn't have 11 all star selections like Bosh. Just 2.

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

[Rust_Cohle]

Cool, you addressed 10% of my post above as if that changes the other 90%
Plus - joining a supporting cast that already has a winning record without you and without DPOY-level, GOAT-level rebounder Rodman isn't exactly taking the hard route. 34-31 is a lot better than Jordans non-Pippen teams _with_ Jordan (29-36 record on average scale to same game number).

Lebron never joined a team that was guaranteed to be playoff-bound even without him. The Kyrie-Love superteam for instance had a 4-23 record without Lebron - that would scale to 10-55 vs. the 34-31 '95 Bulls before Jordan and later Rodman were added. And MJ exited in the 2nd round with a supporting cast that was winning without him, against a team with 2 more wins than his usual supporting cast with Grant managed the year before.

You can't be serious. Miami were literally a 5th seed when LeBron joined and had a finals mvp.

As for Rodman, he was almost out of the league in 1995 hence why he could be had for as little as Will Purdue. Many teams didn't want to deal with his antics. While an amazing defender, he didn't have 11 all star selections like Bosh. Just 2.

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

General warning for baiting. Kindly review the General Board policy.
- ccs

[Cavsfansince84]

You can't be serious. Miami were literally a 5th seed when LeBron joined and had a finals mvp.

As for Rodman, he was almost out of the league in 1995 hence why he could be had for as little as Will Purdue. Many teams didn't want to deal with his antics. While an amazing defender, he didn't have 11 all star selections like Bosh. Just 2.

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real. There wasn't just addition without subtraction.

[Rust_Cohle]

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real.

Dude you can't be serious. They added a 7 time all star in Bosh, and added the following:

Mike Miller – free agent from Washington Wizards

Zydrunas Ilgauskas – free agent from Cleveland Cavaliers

Juwan Howard – free agent from Portland Trail Blazers

Eddie House – free agent from New York Knicks


Enough with the victim mentality for LeBron, jfc.

[Cavsfansince84]

Dude you can't be serious. They added a 7 time all star in Bosh, and added the following:

Mike Miller – free agent from Washington Wizards

Zydrunas Ilgauskas – free agent from Cleveland Cavaliers

Juwan Howard – free agent from Portland Trail Blazers

Eddie House – free agent from New York Knicks


Enough with the victim mentality for LeBron, jfc.

God, you are such a blatant troll. I literally mentioned the likely 3 best players on the 2010 team after Wade who all left(which were a major part of that team winning 47 games) and you aren't happy because I failed to mention 35 year old, beyond washed big Z, Eddie House, who played in 56 games at 18mpg, and 37 yr old Juwan Howard who was 12th on that team in minutes. Those were guys they added because they had to fill out the roster and if anything are just evidence of what little depth the team had in 2011. House was decent but all in all the 2011 team had terrible depth. Instead of just being able to admit that I was right you had to go and make one of the worst posts in the history of this board as some kind of retort while also having the audacity to add the 'dude, you can be serious at the beginning.' Congrats, you are now the 3rd person I've ever had to place on block on here in my 8 years of posting.

[Yank3525]

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real. There wasn't just addition without subtraction.

They didn't lose anyone of significance and added Bosh. On top of that if they didn't get LeBron, they would have used the rest of the cap space to fill out the roster.

[Cavsfansince84]

They didn't lose anyone of significance and added Bosh. On top of that if they didn't get LeBron, they would have used the rest of the cap space to fill out the roster.

You cannot simultaneously talk about him and Bosh joining a 47 win team while also completely dismissing most of the players minus Wade from that team who got it to 47 wins. That completely goes against your original point here dude. Also, Wade started declining on top of that and its surprising his knees held out as long as they did given the surgery he had before he even came into the league.

[ShootersShoot]

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Bron literally got to choose which teams he went to multiple times. Each time the team he joined had very strong assets.

[Nate505]

I'm impressed with just how big a nerve Stockton struck with these comments.