Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[The Servant]

Beating the 73 win GSW Warriors on a 3-1 come back for the first time in the NBA Finals. No value. Ok.

[ball_takes23]

Seriously. 47 win team with just Wade. They would have been a 55+ win team with just adding Bosh and using the money they used on Lebron to fill out the rest of the roster.

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real. There wasn't just addition without subtraction.

It’s dishonest but no more dishonest than you guys pretending like the 94 bulls were the same team as the 93 bulls or that the 2011 Cavs were the same team as 2010

[EmpireFalls]

The entirety of discourse on the General Board:

“LeBron is a fraud who actually sucks and definitely isn’t even top 5 all time”

If we could just cut to the chase and put that sentence on the front page it would save a lot of you a lot of time.

[DimesandKnicks]

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Bron literally got to choose which teams he went to multiple times. Each time the team he joined had very strong assets.

I really don’t understand why this is such an issue for people. Did u want him to join a team that was rebuilding?

[Cavsfansince84]

It’s dishonest but no more dishonest than you guys pretending like the 94 bulls were the same team as the 93 bulls or that the 2011 Cavs were the same team as 2010

You don't get to lump me and whatever arguments I made in with other people's posts whenever it is convenient to do so. That's a completely dishonest form of rebuttal. I haven't said a word about the 94 Bulls or 2011 Cavs in this entire thread.

[Tha Cynic]

I think this applies more to KD

James created super teams with his buddies multiple times. He’s actually the one who started this culture of stars teaming up on their own.

Durant did a version of it by signing with a team that had his buddies.

You can’t criticize one and not the other lol

[Mazter]

Exactly. The way bron stans make it sound like he played with the 2004 Cavs his entire career is hilarious.

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real. There wasn't just addition without subtraction.

It’s dishonest but no more dishonest than you guys pretending like the 94 bulls were the same team as the 93 bulls or that the 2011 Cavs were the same team as 2010

I don't see that big of a difference.

Code: Select all

Phill        Phill
------------------------   
Jordan       Myers
Pippen       Pippen   
Grant        Grant
Armstrong    Armstrong
Cartwright   Carthwright
------------------------
S.Williams   S.Williams
Paxson       Kerr
King         Longley
Tucker       Kukoc


[Mephariel]

He did do it multiple times. Not just to miami, but back to cleveland, then to lakers and facilitates the AD trade. It seems like a career pattern. He seems to be allergic to overcoming adversity (2016 might be the exception there, but that was 2 years after he tucked tail and ran away from miami)

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

It wasnt easy? How many 1sts had the cavs accrued in the 4 years he was gone? Did they trade one for a 25 and 10 guy in love? Were they younger and more talented than the miami team that had aged out? That cavs team was a dream compared to the heat he bailed on

Dude, they went through a 73-9 Warriors team. No it wasn't easy. It was one of the toughest championships. Love was a third option on a good team, which was the role he played. Other championship teams have first, second, and third options. Why is Lebron not allowed to have those?

[Mephariel]

He did do it multiple times. Not just to miami, but back to cleveland, then to lakers and facilitates the AD trade. It seems like a career pattern. He seems to be allergic to overcoming adversity (2016 might be the exception there, but that was 2 years after he tucked tail and ran away from miami)

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

[Capn'O]

The entirety of discourse on the General Board:

“LeBron is a fraud who actually sucks and definitely isn’t even top 5 all time”

If we could just cut to the chase and put that sentence on the front page it would save a lot of you a lot of time.

There should be a second sentence too. "No, wrong, he's the best."

[Iwasawitness]

I think this applies more to KD

James created super teams with his buddies multiple times. He’s actually the one who started this culture of stars teaming up on their own.

Durant did a version of it by signing with a team that had his buddies.

You can’t criticize one and not the other lol

You're leaving out the part where Durant joined the team that beat him. And also, they just got done winning 73 games.

That's a pretty big difference.

[Iwasawitness]

I'm impressed with just how big a nerve Stockton struck with these comments.

Jeff Teague needs to take notes.

[ball_takes23]

Why on Earth are you guys acting like that 47 win team lost no pieces from it when they added Bosh+LeBron? That's not how that worked. They basically lost 3 of their 4 best players after Wade when they made room for their new big 3. Jermaine O'Neal, Quentin Richardson and Michael Beasley. Were any of them all stars? No, but it's very dishonest to act like it was a 47 win team that added the best player in the world and a top 15-20 guy in Bosh. They also added Miller and Bibby but those two played a combined 63 games and had vorp of .2. Not real difference makers that year. So keep it real. There wasn't just addition without subtraction.

It’s dishonest but no more dishonest than you guys pretending like the 94 bulls were the same team as the 93 bulls or that the 2011 Cavs were the same team as 2010

I don't see that big of a difference.

Code: Select all

Phill        Phill
------------------------   
Jordan       Myers
Pippen       Pippen   
Grant        Grant
Armstrong    Armstrong
Cartwright   Carthwright
------------------------
S.Williams   S.Williams
Paxson       Kerr
King         Longley
Tucker       Kukoc


Now go look at the number of minutes each of those players played. Almost half of the total minutes from 94 were from players not on the 93 team

[ShootersShoot]

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Bron literally got to choose which teams he went to multiple times. Each time the team he joined had very strong assets.

I really don’t understand why this is such an issue for people. Did u want him to join a team that was rebuilding?

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose high valued asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

[DimesandKnicks]

Bron literally got to choose which teams he went to multiple times. Each time the team he joined had very strong assets.

I really don’t understand why this is such an issue for people. Did u want him to join a team that was rebuilding?

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

He left Cleveland the first time because they showed themselves incompetent.

He left Miami with three of its rotation players being over 34 and worn down 32 year old Wade.

He left Cleveland the second time after they traded Kyrie Irving for a hipless Isaiah Thomas.

So yea, he left Miami — in free agency. To play for teams that had a better chance of competing for championships.

What would you have him do? Stay and tough it out to…for what exactly? Vibes?

[Cavsfansince84]

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning a ring with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

[The4thHorseman]

Bron literally got to choose which teams he went to multiple times. Each time the team he joined had very strong assets.

I really don’t understand why this is such an issue for people. Did u want him to join a team that was rebuilding?

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose high valued asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

Hie exactly does a player handpick his own team? How does that work?

[Cavsfansince84]

He left Cleveland the first time because they showed themselves incompetent.

He left Miami with three of its rotation players being over 34 and worn down 32 year old Wade.

He left Cleveland the second time after they traded Kyrie Irving for a hipless Isaiah Thomas.

So yea, he left Miami — in free agency. To play for teams that had a better chance of competing for championships.

What would you have him do? Stay and tough it out to…for what exactly? Vibes?

Apparently to get less criticism and less hate on message boards 10 years later by people who are on crusades to discredit his accomplishments anyhow. That's why he should have stayed in Miami.

[ShootersShoot]

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning 2 rings with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

[Cavsfansince84]

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

I don't think it matters who we want to blame for him leaving Miami and Cleveland the 2nd time. He was a fa and decided to leave. Blame is meaningless. Both places had become very difficult for him to win in though and on some level I think he wanted to win a ring in Cleveland before he retired. So he just went where he wanted to go.