Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[DimesandKnicks]

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning 2 rings with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

Yet the players we compare LeBron too played for organizations that were able to do just that.

The combination of an old beaten down team and the opportunity to win a ring in his home state? Do you guys know these people are actual humans? But you wanted him to waste another year or two of his prime for the Heat to retool?

[michaelm]

I dont have an issue with it but just pointing out the absurdity of your logic...he hand picked his own teams and left 2 of those teams immediately after they made the finals. He literally chose strong asset filled teams yet you are blaming the teams for bron wanting to leave.

So maybe its not the orgs fault but bron just not wanting to give the team a chance to retool. Which, it is his right, but lets call a spade a spade. You act like bron was on the heat and never had any help.

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning 2 rings with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

Absolutely agree, but I don’t have much problem with him leaving either since the organisations which signed him knew they were taking a risk of him not staying forever, and he served out his contracts which to me as a non-American/outside observer was the extent of his obligation, while bringing the organisations what they sought ie titles. The Cavs have rebuilt more quickly than I thought would happen and are looking better recently than any non-LeBron Cavs team I can recall, so perhaps them crashing and burning after he left the second time wasn’t all bad either.

I don’t consider it reasonable for LeBron partisans to complain about Jordan’s path either though, he followed the well travelled path followed by most in his day and made it work better than anyone since Bill Russell, and as I have said no one else has led/had built around him a Bulls team which has won a single title let alone 6.

[michaelm]

The entirety of discourse on the General Board:

“LeBron is a fraud who actually sucks and definitely isn’t even top 5 all time”

If we could just cut to the chase and put that sentence on the front page it would save a lot of you a lot of time.

There should be a second sentence too. "No, wrong, he's the best."

And a third one, ‘but Pippen, but Rodman’.

[Capn'O]

The entirety of discourse on the General Board:

“LeBron is a fraud who actually sucks and definitely isn’t even top 5 all time”

If we could just cut to the chase and put that sentence on the front page it would save a lot of you a lot of time.

There should be a second sentence too. "No, wrong, he's the best."

And a third one, ‘but Pippen, but Rodman’.

This is already too many sentences and I have regrets about writing the second one.

[michaelm]

All-star selections are popularity contests, all-NBA selections are too but at least incorporate some objectivity (see Kobe 2014-16)
I mean Melo was an AS every year and was so bad (bottom 1% playoff impact) he would actually more than cancel out a legit all-NBA player.
Who cares who had the more popular team mates?

The facts remain:
Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but an NBA team consists of over a dozen players and a bunch of coaches, so only looking at 0 to 2 of them to judge how good a team is seems pretty nutty.
Then not even looking at how those 0 to 2 team members performed but only how popular they were just adds another level of dumb.

Selectively pinpointing ALL NBA is not facts. Facts are not looking at 16 years of LeBron's career to prove a point and then using the extra season's stats as a determining factor in any debate. If you were to include 4 of ADs ALL NBA seasons that makes 8 to 2 All NBA teammates.

Popularity contest or not, the popular opinion is Lebron has had better players than Jordan. To dismiss All Star selections as a comparative of talent is absurd.

Also, you're probably are not aware of this but Dwyane Wade ,Chris Bosh, Kyrie Irving, Kevin Love, Anthony Davis and Luka Doncic are All NBA talents and were while playing with Lebron. Since you're pointing out players 3-15 why don't you back your statement up with stats and reasoning on how Lebron's teammates from 3-15 were worse than Jordans. Same with Steph and Kobe.

I don't think my point is really debatable and it seems to be the point you're avoiding to argue. Lebron has hand selected better teammates than Jordan, Steph and/or Kobe.

I say this all with always adding to my point that I think Lebron was a GOAT level talent. His "decisions" have diminished the perception of his championships as John Stockton had mentioned.

LeBron had 1 prime healthy year with healthy AD.

I have looked into whole team analysis before and Lebron did have worse teams
Here is one I did with some awkward calculations (but correct) using the old BPM:
https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?p=52420156#p52420156
Showing that there is generally almost no correlation between superstar performance and titles and almost perfect correlation between opposition vs supporting cast gap (provided you have a prime superstar)
With new BPM the gap is less (BPM was pretty obviously changed to make LBJ look worse and MJ better IMO) but still MJs rings were clearly easier even with the new BPM/VORP (no post on that)

Of course Lebron picked better team mates, while for other stars their management picked better team mates - since Lebron sucks at GMing (but less than Cavs managment) and does not have the ability/time to put together a whole well-synergizing team this is overall a disadvantage for him
How is getting handed stuff better than getting out of a crap situation on your own initiative? It's like Donald Trump saying, I got Billions of $ without having to quit on my home country like that despicable Elon Musk.

What would his perception have been had he never won (like Jordan without Pippen) in his entire career?

But the path Jordan chose which was the main path in his day which was pre- the recent player empowerment era included allowing someone competent to build the Bulls roster, sticking with a coach and allowing that coach to coach him and the team in general, and in particular acceding to a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to an extent which allowed his teammates to thrive was what resulted in the Jordan Bulls teams. I don’t consider it likely two Bulls threepeats etc would have happened with the aforementioned Stockton or even Malone as the cornerstone. The path LeBron chose post 2010 was quite simply unlikely to result in a Pippen arising next to him. And if he and his cohort pushed early on for the Cavs to be win now the first time around as some are saying that has an effect as well, not that I am claiming this myself, looks to me like the Cavs organisation was terrible and LeBron was too good too soon for them to get early first round draft picks.

You pay your money and you take your choice. IMO neither camp should complain about the choices made by the other player.

[MavsDirk41]

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

.....
Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else.
....

Who are all those same teammates Jordan faithfully played with through injury and old age?
Didn't he quit as soon as Rodman had degraded to 5th in DPOY and NBA-leading rebounder and Pippen had degraded to top10 in both MVP and DPOY, 1st all-def-NBA but only 3rd all-NBA?

Scottie Pippen in 1998 (aside from top10 in MVP and DPOY):
1x 1st all-def
1x 3rd all-NBA
--> Jordan promptly quits in digust on not just his team but the entire NBA

all of Lebron's teammates combined over his first 16 seasons (basically his entire prime):
1x 2nd all-NBA
3x 3rd all-NBA

Lebron James quit Miami and Cleveland twice

Lebron James best teammates:
Wade
Luka
Davis
Irving
Love
Westbrook

Jordans best teammates:
Pippen
Rodman
Kukoc
Grant
Rip Hamilton
BJ Armstrong

You want to compare their all nba team, mvp, all star selections? See who played/has played with more talent?

[Cavsfansince84]

But the path Jordan chose which was the main path in his day which was pre- the recent player empowerment era included allowing someone competent to build the Bulls roster, sticking with a coach and allowing that coach to coach him and the team in general, and in particular acceding to a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to an extent which allowed his teammates to thrive was what resulted in the Jordan Bulls teams. I don’t consider it likely two Bulls threepeats etc would have happened with the aforementioned Stockton or even Malone as the cornerstone. The path LeBron chose post 2010 was quite simply unlikely to result in a Pippen arising next to him. And if he and his cohort pushed early on for the Cavs to be win now the first time around as some are saying that has an effect as well, not that I am claiming this myself, looks to me like the Cavs organisation was terrible and LeBron was too good too soon for them to get good draft picks.

You pay your money and you take your choice. IMO neither camp should complain about the choices made by the other player.

Jordan basically chose his path when he signed the 8 year extension in 87. The only reason we sit here now and say 'that is how it was done' is because it just happened to work out really well for most of the previous all time greats who preceded MJ with the exception of Moses who switched teams, won 1 and then got forgotten because he ended up going to a really bad team. Magic got to play with Kareem and then Worthy and Scott from day 1, Bird went to a franchise with Red as gm(shouldn't have to say more), Kareem got Oscar and then Magic at the tail end of his prime and Dr. J went to the Sixers who made the finals in 77 then 3 more from 80-83 after winning 2 rings in the aba. Duncan lands on the Spurs and wins a ring in year 2. Shaq got Penny then goes to LA and gets Kobe, Kobe got Shaq. The only major stars who really struggled before LeBron entered the league were Hakeem and KG from the 70's until he got to Cleveland. Barkley struggled then forced his way out.
Player empowerment likely would have become a thing much sooner than that had most of the major stars came into really bad situations. Plus teams got smart and started signing their stars to ridiculously long contracts in the 80's. So that is why sticking with the team that drafted you became this sacred thing some people are still trying to clutch pearls for all these decades later. It's more to do with luck than anything else.

[ShootersShoot]

I'm not sure what difference it makes or should make in any of this. I just don't understand. How many players in nba history can basically come to a franchise and say 'trade a & b for x & y(if we go along with him being the real gm of the teams he joined after the Cavs)' then take them to 4 straight finals and win 1 or 2 of them? How many franchises in nba history would turn that offer down? Not too many. The Heat were going nowhere in 2011. Wade was starting to wear down and couldn't carry them any further. Once a guy joins your team as a fa you can't expect some big degree of loyalty like if you'd drafted them and they'd been there for 10-12 years. Duncan very nearly left the Spurs after winning 2 rings with them. Kobe very nearly left LA after winning 3 there. It's a business. Owners literally move teams out of cities when they feel like its a good enough move financially to do so. Yet LeBron is a bad guy for playing out 4 year contracts and going somewhere else?

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

Yet the players we compare LeBron too played for organizations that were able to do just that.

The combination of an old beaten down team and the opportunity to win a ring in his home state? Do you guys know these people are actual humans? But you wanted him to waste another year or two of his prime for the Heat to retool?

What teams are you referring to? Only the bulls and spurs have maintained an elite team for over 5 seasons since the 90s

[MavsDirk41]

Let's use All- Star Selections;

Jordans teammates
Scottie Pippen 1987–1998 (10 seasons together) 7 All-star selections
Horace Grant 1987–1994 (7 seasons together) 1 All-star selection
B.J. Armstrong 1989–1995 (5 seasons together) 1 All-star selection

Lebron's teammates
Dwyane Wade 2010–2014, 2017–18 (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Anthony Davis 2019–present (5 seasons together) 5 All-star selections
Chris Bosh 2010–2014 (4 seasons together) 4 All-star selections
Kevin Love 2014–2018 (4 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Kyrie Irving 2014–2017 (3 seasons together) 3 All-star selections
Ray Allen 2012–2014 (2 seasons together) 2 All-star selections
Mo Williams 2008–2009 (1 season together) 1 All-star selections
Zydrunas Ilgauskas 2003–2010 (8 seasons together) 2 All-star selections

This is why Lebron's championships "feel" diminished. He plays with better players than anyone else and not organically but by his own choice.

Name me one teammate Jordan had after Pippen who was better than the following, all these players were in their prime when they played with Lebron;

Dwyane Wade
Chris Bosh
Kyrie Irving
Kevin Love
Anthony Davis
Luka Doncic

AD made 4 all star teams with LeBron
Kyrie made 2
Big Z made 1 where I think he was last minute replacement
Ray made 0
Wade made 4

Also, in terms of impact Grant absolutely was better than Bosh or Love. He used similar shot volume on much better efficiency and then was a much better rebounder + defender(Love could rebound but not really defend, Bosh was the opposite). He couldn't possibly carry a team as a #1 scorer like those two did before but as a #3 he was a better fit/player. Then you have guys like Kukoc(best 6th man in the league at that time), Kerr off the bench(career best 3pt shooter even now) but the big thing is coaching. The Bulls had a goat hc with goat assistants that compensated for a lot of things.

Lmao come on man! Horace Grant was not a better all around player than Kevin Love and Chris Bosh. Kevin Love was a 3 level scorer who was an excellent passer and rebounder. Grant was a better defender but thats it. Bosh was a much better offensive player than Horace. Bosh could dribble and create his own shot. Bosh could also step out to the 3 point line. Horace was a better defender but was limited to put backs, dunks, and a little mid range shot. But he was not a better all around player than Love or Bosh lol.

[michaelm]

But the path Jordan chose which was the main path in his day which was pre- the recent player empowerment era included allowing someone competent to build the Bulls roster, sticking with a coach and allowing that coach to coach him and the team in general, and in particular acceding to a game plan which took the ball out of his hands to an extent which allowed his teammates to thrive was what resulted in the Jordan Bulls teams. I don’t consider it likely two Bulls threepeats etc would have happened with the aforementioned Stockton or even Malone as the cornerstone. The path LeBron chose post 2010 was quite simply unlikely to result in a Pippen arising next to him. And if he and his cohort pushed early on for the Cavs to be win now the first time around as some are saying that has an effect as well, not that I am claiming this myself, looks to me like the Cavs organisation was terrible and LeBron was too good too soon for them to get good draft picks.

You pay your money and you take your choice. IMO neither camp should complain about the choices made by the other player.

Jordan basically chose his path when he signed the 8 year extension in 87. The only reason we sit here now and say 'that is how it was done' is because it just happened to work out really well for most of the previous all time greats who preceded MJ with the exception of Moses who switched teams, won 1 and then got forgotten because he ended up going to a really bad team. Magic got to play with Kareem and then Worthy and Scott from day 1, Bird went to a franchise with Red as gm(shouldn't have to say more), Kareem got Oscar and then Magic at the tail end of his prime and Dr. J went to the Sixers who made the finals in 77 then 3 more from 80-83 after winning 2 rings in the aba. Duncan lands on the Spurs and wins a ring in year 2. Shaq got Penny then goes to LA and gets Kobe, Kobe got Shaq. The only major stars who really struggled before LeBron entered the league were Hakeem and KG from the 70's until he got to Cleveland. Barkley struggled then forced his way out.
Player empowerment likely would have become a thing much sooner than that had most of the major stars came into really bad situations. Plus teams got smart and started signing their stars to ridiculously long contracts in the 80's. So that is why sticking with the team that drafted you became this sacred thing some people are still trying to clutch pearls for all these decades later. It's more to do with luck than anything else.

Very convenient to attribute things to luck.

What we know is that Jordan was a great player and that good to great teams were built around him. There are a number of reasons his path was more likely to have the outcome it did.

I actually agree that LeBron made legitimate choices from among the choices available to him and that some of Jordan’s choices weren’t available to him. This does not have as a corollary that Jordan’s teams and career were the result of luck, although the Bulls were I guess lucky they had a lottery pick when he was in the draft and that he was still available to them having not been taken as the first pick. It is a truism that you make your own luck anyway which Jordan definitely did.

[MavsDirk41]

I mean, you’re naturally going to play with more allstars when you play on more teams

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Did lebron james go back to Cleveland? So he missed that type writer? Lol excuses my friend

[fansse]

I think this applies more to KD

James created super teams with his buddies multiple times. He’s actually the one who started this culture of stars teaming up on their own.

Durant did a version of it by signing with a team that had his buddies.

You can’t criticize one and not the other lol

I think LeBron has titles that don't mean much and some that do (2016 for example). KD on the other hand - not much.

[Cavsfansince84]

Lmao come on man! Horace Grant was not a better all around player than Kevin Love and Chris Bosh. Kevin Love was a 3 level scorer who was an excellent passer and rebounder. Grant was a better defender but thats it. Bosh was a much better offensive player than Horace. Bosh could dribble and create his own shot. Bosh could also step out to the 3 point line. Horace was a better defender but was limited to put backs, dunks, and a little mid range shot. But he was not a better all around player than Love or Bosh lol.

He absolutely was more impactful imo in the role he had on the Bulls than what Love and Bosh had on the Cavs and Heat. I'll leave it at that. Is it ok for you to disagree? Of course but don't give me the whole 'come on man' like what I said is such a ridiculous thing to say. Let me put it for you this way, let's look at each player's top 3 win share seasons while with those teams. You've just gotten so used to thinking of Grant in one way that you can't see what he actually contributed.

Bosh 11-14- 10.3, 9.0, 8.9 ws/48 maxes out at .177
Love 15-18- 8.7, 8.5, 6.4, ws/48 .185
Grant 90-93- 14.1, 10.3, 9.1, ws/48 .237

Would Love and Bosh make better #1/2 options on teams? Most likely but that's not what we are talking about here.

[Cavsfansince84]

Very convenient to attribute things to luck.

What we know is that Jordan was a great player and that good to great teams were built around him. There are a number of reasons his path was more likely to have the outcome it did.

I actually agree that LeBron made legitimate choices from among the choices available to him and that some of Jordan’s choices weren’t available to him. This does not have as a corollary that Jordan’s teams and career were the result of luck, although the Bulls were I guess lucky they had a lottery pick when he was in the draft and that he was still available to them having not been taken as the first pick. It is a truism that you make your own luck anyway which Jordan definitely did.

Um, how else would you attribute guys getting drafted to teams that are ready to contend in year 1 or year 2? Sure the players themselves are part of the reason but there's not too many teams drafting in the top 5 each year that can then become instant contenders even with atg players as rookies/2nd year players. There's definitely some luck involved when it comes to the situations that many of those players landed in. I wasn't specifically talking about MJ.

[DimesandKnicks]

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with what he did...look at the path shaq took after he left miami..except shaq couldnt win anymore rings.
Same with KD...
But I just dont agree that blaming the orgs for bron wanting to leave is fair (except his first stint in cleveland), especially since bron chose to sign with them in the first place indicating they were not exactly incompetent orgs he was joining. Its hard to maintain an elite squad for over 4-5 seasons in the modern nba.

Yet the players we compare LeBron too played for organizations that were able to do just that.

The combination of an old beaten down team and the opportunity to win a ring in his home state? Do you guys know these people are actual humans? But you wanted him to waste another year or two of his prime for the Heat to retool?

What teams are you referring to? Only the bulls and spurs have maintained an elite team for over 5 seasons since the 90s

Why limit to since the 90s? Let’s really look back and realize it’s organizations that create elite teams, no players:

Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Russell,

Those Celtic teams, those Laker teams, pre Shaq and post Shaq, Curry and the GSW

[DimesandKnicks]

Yes, naturally, when you continually bail on teams as soon as your teammates begin to reach their expiration date, and join up on new teams with ready made all-stars in their prime, you are naturally going to play with more all-stars. It’s the entire premise of this thread

Easy not to bail when you’re working for an organization giving you the tools to succeed. Would you leave your job if they mandated use of a type writer instead of computer with internet?

Did lebron james go back to Cleveland? So he missed that type writer? Lol excuses my friend

Folks. It’s time to grow up! These aren’t super heroes. I get having admiration and wanting them to defeat villains on their way to championships as children but when we become adults we should let go of silly ideas.

Lebron left a type writer - a **** organization that lost Carlos Boozer, wouldn’t pull the trigger on an Amare trade because they over valued JJ Hickson and drafted Luke Jackson instead of Jr Smith, Josh Smith, Al Jefferson or trading up one spot to get Igoudola (imagine that, like the Bulls traded Polynice for Pippen).

Were all grown ups right? We all have jobs we go to and we perform as hard as we can to hopefully get our bonus and achieve the best possible rewards package.

In NBA terms that’s a max salary on a championship team. If you freaking over perform for seven years and your job keeps giving you a **** bonus - yet u know your are the, and every other company knows, you’re the best in the industry at what you do.

Your current company, that you’ve been with for seven years busting your hump, performing at the highest level, continues to demonstrate that they’ll always give you a **** bonus, a 401k with no match and have to go in office five times a day.

But you can go over here, to this other company - in MIA - get a 401k match, a hefty bonus, a flex schedule where you can work from home, and all the technological resources one could ask for. And you get two work with two of your best friends that you’ve developed relationships with from seeing eachother at various conferences.

What reason do you have to stay other than….again, vibes?

You go to that company have two of the greatest professional years of your life but are starting to see that your current company is forecasting financial troubles and won’t be able to compensate you as well. But where you developed your skills, that beautiful startup in your home state, they have some venture capital coming in and now - they can provide a package similar to what you got in MIA.

Same salary, maybe a hybrid schedule and you’ll have to play more of a mentorship role to younger staff. You also get an opportunity to invest in your community. Build a school for at risk youth, invest in local Boy & Girls clubs, launch community centers that offer job training and financial and support services for families in need in the city you grew up in. All of that and you have a young stud to supercharge your second stint at this business.

What do you do? More vibes?

Then, as a man, father, a husband (those things that a lot of yall are but a lot of yall forget he is too) you have an opportunity to segment your legacy even further (as men are prone and inclined to do) on and off the court. Meanwhile you see your company developing old habits. They let go of their young stud employee and replace him with a lady who goes on maternity leave weeks into her tenure.

You start flirting with the idea of joining THE greatest and most historic company in your industry, in one of the greatest cities in the world (You’ve earned this). They promise you the same Bennie’s as you were promised in MIA and Cleveland. And this team has even more in assets to help supercharge their business annd off the court opportunities. Even promise that your son, who’s currently enrolled in USC, a job…even if he doesn’t quite deserve.

wtf do you?!

Stay in Cleveland

Because of vibes?

Because…adversity?

Didn’t he go to the finals literally every year from his time on the Heat to his last game in Cleveland? Than choose to compete in a stronger conference? But we forget that part right?

[DimesandKnicks]

Next time y’all think about going on Indeed and updating your LinkedIn

Think about how important adversity is and stay your ass at your job

[DimesandKnicks]

It’s like everyone knows the NBA is a business but the fans, and no one wants to levy the commitment to the game, to his body, to his health, to be able to play a full season of basketball and a finals run just to lose.

Some of y’all can’t even take losing as fans

It’s a ruthless business. Wade learned it two years after LeBron left when a team he won three titles for wouldn’t pay him what he thought he owed. Isaiah Thomas learned it when he played in the playoffs after his sister died just to be traded after injuring an already injured hip - but hey..he played through adversity. There’s your reward.

Owners will trade you cut you **** you to win championships or save money, but we don’t value LeBron’s championships because he…out himself in the best position to do what the whole point of playing basketball is for which is to win?

Mental

[GeorgeSears]

This is dumb and disingenuous.

Jordan, on the other hand, made what he had work, pretty much all with one team. No trade requests. No forcing his team to trade for better teammates.

Yea, because Jordan had a competent GM in Jerry Krause who got him Scottie, who didn't listen to him when he wanted to keep Oakley and got Cartwright instead, who drafted Kukoc, who traded for Rodman. If Jerrry Krause doesn't nail those moves, you think Michael Jordan would've continued to stay with the Bulls and lose in the first round repeatedly? He would've also demanded a trade.

LeBron's best teammates in the first five years of his career were Mo Williams and Big Z. The Cavs couldn't build a good enough team around him.

[Darthlukey]

"Back to Cleveland"

You act like that was easy. He went back to Cleveland and rescue Kyrie Irving and went on an epic run and defeated the Warriors.

Also, how is having AD different than Jordan having Pippen? Why is Lebron not allowed to have a second star?

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!