Around the league -- Offseason edition

[ACMFFL]

Klay and DLo as starting guards? Perimeter defense is going to be outstanding Bigs will have a lot of work to do.

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

[Bob8]

Klay and DLo as starting guards? Perimeter defense is going to be outstanding Bigs will have a lot of work to do.

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

I would say it's a little bit different, if 30/10/10 player gives you weak D or 12/3/5 player gives you weak D. Luka and Brunson were elite in one side, DLO and Klay aren't.

Odds for Mavs are over/under 40.5, I guess there's a reason for that.

[HMFFL]

Agreed with Mav. Also I don't think we can afford to lose Klay or DLo shooting in our starting lineup.
If PJ stays, imho he will come off the bench, still play starter minutes (~30MPG), and close games.

DLo can't shoot, he doesn't play defense, and he's nothing more than a negative journeyman.

[Archx]

Klay and DLo as starting guards? Perimeter defense is going to be outstanding Bigs will have a lot of work to do.

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

Luka and Brunson were infinitely better than DLo and Klay on defense. There is no comparison at all here. Even Luka and Kyrie were really good on defense specially in playoffs.

[Bob8]

Klay and DLo as starting guards? Perimeter defense is going to be outstanding Bigs will have a lot of work to do.

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

Luka and Brunson were infinitely better than DLo and Klay on defense. There is no comparison at all here. Even Luka and Kyrie were really good on defense specially in playoffs.

People are again forgetting why Mavs made WCF in 22, they were great offensive team, thet had in second round, where they beat big favourites Suns, the highest offensive rtg off all teams. D was solid considering roster, but still pretty bad.

Mavs were great playoffs team mostly because Luka/Brunson and Luka/Kyrie are great half court players, which matters a lot more in playoffs than in RS.

Betting everything on D and then starting Dlo and Klay looks very suspicious to me. Putting Klay in a lineup with 4 non shooters might look like smart thing to do, but the most likely outcome will be Klay not having enough spacing to do anything.

[ACMFFL]

Klay and DLo as starting guards? Perimeter defense is going to be outstanding Bigs will have a lot of work to do.

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

Luka and Brunson were infinitely better than DLo and Klay on defense. There is no comparison at all here. Even Luka and Kyrie were really good on defense specially in playoffs.

C'mon man, that's not true at all: JB is smaller than DLo and I have Luka/Klay defense as a wash, just because Luka has size advantage, Klay is still decent on defense tho.
PO is a different sport, in fact I was referring to RS basketball tho. They definitely need a better POA defender unless Max levels up his defense and Caleb is back to his MIA form, but imo it's not a big deal in the RS, frontcourt should be good enough to erase a lot of mistakes. It's definitely a concern in the PO, but there is still time to work on it until the TDL.

[ACMFFL]

I would say it's a little bit different, if 30/10/10 player gives you weak D or 12/3/5 player gives you weak D. Luka and Brunson were elite in one side, DLO and Klay aren't.

Odds for Mavs are over/under 40.5, I guess there's a reason for that.

I honestly don't get your point, I mean we are talking about defense dude.

That's what happens if the team is in the lottery just one season earlier, I mean Mavs were over/under 44.5 before entering the 23/24 season.
Odds aren't the Bible..

[ACMFFL]

People are again forgetting why Mavs made WCF in 22, they were great offensive team, thet had in second round, where they beat big favourites Suns, the highest offensive rtg off all teams. D was solid considering roster, but still pretty bad.

Mavs were great playoffs team mostly because Luka/Brunson and Luka/Kyrie are great half court players, which matters a lot more in playoffs than in RS.

Betting everything on D and then starting Dlo and Klay looks very suspicious to me. Putting Klay in a lineup with 4 non shooters might look like smart thing to do, but the most likely outcome will be Klay not having enough spacing to do anything.

Let's not move the goalpost just to push your narrative.
I was talking about the RS ofc, 21/22 Mavs defense was definitely elite, 104.7 PA/G while they had Powell and Kleber as their anchors.
21/22 Mavs team had great defense in the PO as well, Dallas allowed only 104.4 ppg against PHX (Suns had averaged 107.6 in the PO and 114.8 in the RS, that's a huge drop off..) Ofc they made it because of their elite backcourt, but let's not downplay how good their defense was.

I mean, last season we started the season with Klay/Kyrie/Luka all on the court at the same time and I don't remember you were concerned about their defense at all

[ACMFFL]

DLo can't shoot, he doesn't play defense, and he's nothing more than a negative journeyman.

Last season his shooting was pretty poor but in the last 3 years he has been a 38.2% 3pt shooter on 6.8 attempts per game overall, that's not bad at all. We actually need a decent volume shooter.

[Bob8]

People are again forgetting why Mavs made WCF in 22, they were great offensive team, thet had in second round, where they beat big favourites Suns, the highest offensive rtg off all teams. D was solid considering roster, but still pretty bad.

Mavs were great playoffs team mostly because Luka/Brunson and Luka/Kyrie are great half court players, which matters a lot more in playoffs than in RS.

Betting everything on D and then starting Dlo and Klay looks very suspicious to me. Putting Klay in a lineup with 4 non shooters might look like smart thing to do, but the most likely outcome will be Klay not having enough spacing to do anything.

Let's not move the goalpost just to push your narrative.
I was talking about the RS ofc, 21/22 Mavs defense was definitely elite, 104.7 PA/G while they had Powell and Kleber as their anchors.
21/22 Mavs team had great defense in the PO as well, Dallas allowed only 104.4 ppg against PHX (they had averaged 107.6 in the PO and 114.8 in the RS..) Ofc they made it because of their elite backcourt, but let's not downplay how good their defense was.

I mean, last season we started the season with Klay/Kyrie/Luka all on the court at the same time and I don't remember you were concerned about their defense at all

I'm not concerned now too, my point is that with backcourt we're having D must be elite to compensate for offensive side, which is kinda difficult with 2 below average defenders starting.

Mavs had defensive rtg. 112.3 against Suns. For comparison they had 107.5 defensive rtg against Celtics in Finals.

Luka and Kyrie generated 80+ points, that's why I wasn't concerned about their D.

[Bob8]

I would say it's a little bit different, if 30/10/10 player gives you weak D or 12/3/5 player gives you weak D. Luka and Brunson were elite in one side, DLO and Klay aren't.

Odds for Mavs are over/under 40.5, I guess there's a reason for that.

I honestly don't get your point, I mean we are talking about defense dude.

That's what happens if the team is in the lottery just one season earlier, I mean Mavs were over/under 44.5 before entering the 23/24 season.
Odds aren't the Bible..

We're talking foremost what Mavs have to do to win as much as possible. My point is, if your backcourt is elite in offensive side, like Luka/Brunson/Kyrie were, you can afford to don't have absolutely elite D. But if your main card is D then you can't afford to have 2 bad defenders in backcourt. I can't see Mavs having good offensive rtg with this year's roster, so having top D is more or less only way to have some success.

Odds are not the Bible, many things can change during the season, but odds pretty good represent what expectations for teams are at this moment. I would say that Mavs' current backcourt is the main reason for those odds. Why do you think Lakers are having projected 7 more wins than Mavs?

[Archx]

Well, they had the 2nd best overall defense in the 21/22 RS while playing Luka and Brunson as their starting guards, with no rim protection whatsoever and undersized frontcourt. I mean, it's not impossible to build a good defense around a weak defensive backcourt.

Luka and Brunson were infinitely better than DLo and Klay on defense. There is no comparison at all here. Even Luka and Kyrie were really good on defense specially in playoffs.

C'mon man, that's not true at all: JB is smaller than DLo and I have Luka/Klay defense as a wash, just because Luka has size advantage, Klay is still decent on defense tho.
PO is a different sport, in fact I was referring to RS basketball tho. They definitely need a better POA defender unless Max levels up his defense and Caleb is back to his MIA form, but imo it's not a big deal in the RS, frontcourt should be good enough to erase a lot of mistakes. It's definitely a concern in the PO, but there is still time to work on it until the TDL.

Don't let the media and other trolls fool you. Luka was one of the most elite ISO post defenders in the league. At various points (until injuries, etc..) he was in the top3 in ISO post defense, PPPA and some 2ndary category aka ball deflections, he was also really good in basic stat like steals and had a very high steal%. While Brunson, when he was still with Mavs, was one of the best in the league in offensive fouls taken. Like you said, sometimes size does matter.

It's been a long time since Klay was good on defense, pre-injury Klay i can agree yes but after that he's clearly levels below that. DLo on the other hand is a complete joke, worse than Dinwiddie and that's saying something...

[ACMFFL]

We're talking foremost what Mavs have to do to win as much as possible. My point is, if your backcourt is elite in offensive side, like Luka/Brunson/Kyrie were, you can afford to don't have absolutely elite D. But if your main card is D then you can't afford to have 2 bad defenders in backcourt. I can't see Mavs having good offensive rtg with this year's roster, so having top D is more or less only way to have some success.

Odds are not the Bible, many things can change during the season, but odds pretty good represent what expectations for teams are at this moment. I would say that Mavs' current backcourt is the main reason for those odds. Why do you think Lakers are having projected 7 more wins than Mavs?

Last season HOU had similar, if not worse, offensive juice (Sengun/Amen/Green/FVV vs. AD/Cooper/Klay/DLo), similar defensive weaknesses in the backcourt, and they still managed to win 50+ games with elite defense and pretty decent offense. It's possible to have a great-to-elite defense even with a midget and a defensive telepass all in the same backcourt.

Cause LAL won 11 more games than the Mavs last season, maybe..?
Just saying:
23/24 OKC u/o was 44.5, then they proceeded to win 57 freaking games.
23/24 MIN 44.5, they won 56 games.
24/25 CLE 48.5, they won 61 games.
24/25 DET 25.5, they won 44 games.
24/25 HOU 43.5, they won 52 games.
24/25 LAC 35.5, they won 50 games.

[ACMFFL]

Don't let the media and other trolls fool you. Luka was one of the most elite ISO post defenders in the league. At various points (until injuries, etc..) he was in the top3 in ISO post defense, PPPA and some 2ndary category aka ball deflections, he was also really good in basic stat like steals and had a very high steal%. While Brunson, when he was still with Mavs, was one of the best in the league in offensive fouls taken. Like you said, sometimes size does matter.

It's been a long time since Klay was good on defense, pre-injury Klay i can agree yes but after that he's clearly levels below that. DLo on the other hand is a complete joke, worse than Dinwiddie and that's saying something...

The media fooled me? Uhm wat? Who gives a flyng f about US media, man? I don't even listen to Italian media for my football/euro bb teams, let alone Uncle Sam's trash programs/podcast lol I just watched almost every single Mavs game over the past 7 years, I mean I know what I'm talking about. Seriously, do you actually believe that anyone who doesn't consider Luka as a plus defensive player is a troll..? I get that he's kind of a national hero for you guys but I mean, c'mon.
When he's engaged and focues is an average-to-decent defender, but you're acting like he's almost all-defense caliber player.
Especially in the RS he was pretty inconsistent, he often failed to show up on D, he rarely passed the eye test tbh. In the PO is a different story, healthy Luka has proven to be a pretty decent defender when basketball matters the most, even a good one for spurts (still remember how damn good he was at guarding Kawhi, PG, JH in ISO in the 4th of G3 vs the Flippers). But that's inconsequential cause we were talking about Mavs potential defensive drop off in the RS, and honestly I don't see it.

Ofc all of that is almost an exercise in futility cause team defense is what matters but let's play around with the roster. Defensively, compared to last season, I have:
Lively/Gafford = Lively/Gafford
AD+PJ >>> PJ+Maxi
Cooper > Klay
Klay = Luka; Max+Caleb>QG
DLo =< Kyrie
Frontcourt improved a ton on paper, Mavs will always have elite help defense, rim protection and size on the floor.
Backcourt has the same weakness as last season, nobody in the starting-5 is suited to be a good POA defender for all game long unless Kidd staggers Klay/DLo minutes or renounce to play twin towers in order to allow Christie to play with starters as much as possible.

While Klay's defense isn't elite anymore, it's still decent and he barely played on a functional team last season to be fair and honest. He's a SF on defense, he can't guard 1s and 2s anymore but he can still hold his own against bigger (but slower) wings with his size and IQ, pretty similar to Luka in these regards.
He's definitely no worse than LuKai on defense.
Lack of great POA defender is gonna be a main concern in the PO (unless Kidd find a way to consistently slot in Max/Caleb, assuming they play well ofc. Yeah too many "if", it's easier to fix it with a trade) but it doesn't bother me at all for RS basketball.

I don't trust defensive metrics that much but I didn't watch a lot of DLo's games tbh, so I rely on them for this one, and those (epm, d-lebron, dpm) actually say that DLo/JB/Dinwiddie are pretty much on the same level on defense, Russell is actually the least worst among the 3 lol
Reality is there is no place in this multiverse where JB is "infinitely better than DLo on defense".

[Bob8]

We're talking foremost what Mavs have to do to win as much as possible. My point is, if your backcourt is elite in offensive side, like Luka/Brunson/Kyrie were, you can afford to don't have absolutely elite D. But if your main card is D then you can't afford to have 2 bad defenders in backcourt. I can't see Mavs having good offensive rtg with this year's roster, so having top D is more or less only way to have some success.

Odds are not the Bible, many things can change during the season, but odds pretty good represent what expectations for teams are at this moment. I would say that Mavs' current backcourt is the main reason for those odds. Why do you think Lakers are having projected 7 more wins than Mavs?

Last season HOU had similar, if not worse, offensive juice (Sengun/Amen/Green/FVV vs. AD/Cooper/Klay/DLo), similar defensive weaknesses in the backcourt, and they still managed to win 50+ games with elite defense and pretty decent offense. It's possible to have a great-to-elite defense even with a midget and a defensive telepass all in the same backcourt.

Cause LAL won 11 more games than the Mavs last season, maybe..?
Just saying:
23/24 OKC u/o was 44.5, then they proceeded to win 57 freaking games.
23/24 MIN 44.5, they won 56 games.
24/25 CLE 48.5, they won 61 games.
24/25 DET 25.5, they won 44 games.
24/25 HOU 43.5, they won 52 games.
24/25 LAC 35.5, they won 50 games.

You should realistically assess Mavs offense.

[ACMFFL]

You should realistically assess Mavs offense.

Yeah Bob, I get it, there is no hope/life after the Luka trade, everything the Mavs do is wrong, they are doomed, yadda yadda yadda.

[Bob8]

You should realistically assess Mavs offense.

Yeah Bob, I get it, there is no hope/life after the Luka trade, everything the Mavs do is wrong and they are doomed, yadda yadda yadda.

No, you did a great job comparing D, which we all agree should be better, but you're totally ignoring other part of the ball. Luka+Kyrie generated 80+ points. Please explain to me how those points will be compensated?

[Archx]

Don't let the media and other trolls fool you. Luka was one of the most elite ISO post defenders in the league. At various points (until injuries, etc..) he was in the top3 in ISO post defense, PPPA and some 2ndary category aka ball deflections, he was also really good in basic stat like steals and had a very high steal%. While Brunson, when he was still with Mavs, was one of the best in the league in offensive fouls taken. Like you said, sometimes size does matter.

It's been a long time since Klay was good on defense, pre-injury Klay i can agree yes but after that he's clearly levels below that. DLo on the other hand is a complete joke, worse than Dinwiddie and that's saying something...

The media fooled me? Uhm wat? Who gives a flyng f about US media, man? I don't even listen to Italian media for my football/euro bb teams, let alone Uncle Sam's trash programs/podcast lol I just watched almost every single Mavs game over the past 7 years, I mean I know what I'm talking about. Seriously, do you actually believe that anyone who doesn't consider Luka as a plus defensive player is a troll..? I get that he's kind of a national hero for you guys but I mean, c'mon.
When he's engaged and focues is an average-to-decent defender, but you're acting like he's almost all-defense caliber player.
Especially in the RS he was pretty inconsistent, he often failed to show up on D, he rarely passed the eye test tbh. In the PO is a different story, healthy Luka has proven to be a pretty decent defender when basketball matters the most, even a good one for spurts (still remember how damn good he was at guarding Kawhi, PG, JH in ISO in the 4th of G3 vs the Flippers). But that's inconsequential cause we were talking about Mavs potential defensive drop off in the RS, and honestly I don't see it.

Ofc all of that is almost an exercise in futility cause team defense is what matters but let's play around with the roster. Defensively, compared to last season, I have:
Lively/Gafford = Lively/Gafford
AD+PJ >>> PJ+Maxi
Cooper > Klay
Klay = Luka; Max+Caleb>QG
DLo =< Kyrie
Frontcourt improved a ton on paper, Mavs will always have elite help defense, rim protection and size on the floor.
Backcourt has the same weakness as last season, nobody in the starting-5 is suited to be a good POA defender for all game long unless Kidd staggers Klay/DLo minutes or renounce to play twin towers in order to allow Christie to play with starters as much as possible.

While Klay's defense isn't elite anymore, it's still decent and he barely played on a functional team last season to be fair and honest. He's a SF on defense, he can't guard 1s and 2s anymore but he can still hold his own against bigger (but slower) wings with his size and IQ, pretty similar to Luka in these regards.
He's definitely no worse than LuKai on defense.
Lack of great POA defender is gonna be a main concern in the PO (unless Kidd find a way to consistently slot in Max/Caleb, assuming they play well ofc. Yeah too many "if", it's easier to fix it with a trade) but it doesn't bother me at all for RS basketball.

I don't trust defensive metrics that much but I didn't watch a lot of DLo's games tbh, so I rely on them for this one, and those (epm, d-lebron, dpm) actually say that DLo/JB/Dinwiddie are pretty much on the same level on defense, Russell is actually the least worst among the 3 lol
Reality is there is no place in this multiverse where JB is "infinitely better than DLo on defense".

I honestly couldn't care less about Klay's and DLO's defense, i just know they both suck... Also about the media comment, it was more of a generalization i didn't specifically mean YOU, so i have no clue why you felt so offended by it. I'm mearly talking about facts from the past which have absolutely no meaning for the future of this team anymore. I guess you took the entire post completely in the wrong way.

So let me rephrase it, Klay is not the defender he once was, relying on him to be a POA defender is fruitless and DLO is comparable to Dinwiddie, who already was beyond horrible defender. Luka/Kai/Brunson were all much better defensive players than those two.

[ACMFFL]

I honestly couldn't care less about Klay's and DLO's defense, i just know they both suck... Also about the media comment, it was more of a generalization i didn't specifically mean YOU, so i have no clue why you felt so offended by it. I'm mearly talking about facts from the past which have absolutely no meaning for the future of this team anymore. I guess you took the entire post completely in the wrong way.

So let me rephrase it, Klay is not the defender he once was, relying on him to be a POA defender is fruitless and DLO is comparable to Dinwiddie, who already was beyond horrible defender. Luka/Kai/Brunson were all much better defensive players than those two.

Honestly I felt like you just wanted to belittle my opinion, this kind of generalization is pointless and adds nothing to the conversation, honestly who cares about US media..?

I totally agree that Klay can't be your POA defender but you lost me at "JB is an infinitely better defender than DLo", that's just utterly false.
You're acting like Klay/DLo is a huge defensive downgrade from Luka/JB and that's definitely not true: reality is Luka and Klay are pretty much similar on defense and both JB/DLo get consistently hunted.

[ACMFFL]

No, you did a great job comparing D, which we all agree should be better, but you're totally ignoring other part of the ball. Luka+Kyrie generated 80+ points. Please explain to me how those points will be compensated?

Imho it's not a big deal in the RS, Mavs won't have an amazing offense but still enough to make them competitive.
But defense was the argument of the discussion Ofc defense is a bit related with offense cause bad shots and TO's won't allow team to properly set up on defense exposing them in transition. Off rebounds could be a huge factor in that regard, this team has the personnel to be an elite rebounding team on both ends of the floor.
AD+Cooper+DLo should be enough to partially offset Luka/Kyrie production, also AD/DLo were particulary productive together last season, at least that's what stats suggest. AD+DLo on: 506' sample size, 117.6 o-rat, 112.9 d-rat, 33% opp 3pt fg%; AD+DLo on/LBJ off: 250' sample size, 121.4 o-rat, 109.9 d-rat, 29.3% opp 3 pt fg%.
I think they'll run plays to keep the ball moving, allowing for quick plays that feed AD with easy baskets around the rim.
Imho they'll have to play with pace, utilize ball/players movement, push the ball in transition, and Flagg should be a big help in that regard.
My main concern is about late game situations, I mean I don't want to live or die by AD middy in the clutch.