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Fierce1 wrote:Celtic offense becomes stagnant when everybody on the floor are just at the 3pt line wanting to shoot 3s.
Simons' ability to score on drives to the basket will result in more open shots for the Cs.
djFan71 wrote:Hal14 wrote:djFan71 wrote:I'm still on the trading Simons ship. The only way it makes sense to keep him this year is if you think he's a long-term fit.
Maybe we need to see him play for us for like half a season (or even a full season) in order to make a more informed decision about whether we think he's a long term fit.
Try before you buy..
Plus, his trade value seems to be extremely low right now..his trade value could go up once we're a few months into the season. And at that point there may be some teams with more of a need for Simons' services and will be more interested in trading for him as we get closer to the deadline..
yeah, I don't discount it's possible. It's just feels a little like blind optimism hoping his value increases substantially in 3 months here after 7 years of service, and given even less time on his contract after that point. But, it's definitely possible. Contract year has done wonders for many a player's effort/production. Just have to count on him knowing that playing the right way and doing the little things is more important than buckets in that regard.
Lux tax and more dev time for other guys outweigh the potential gain by keeping him for me, but I can see both sides.
165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:Celtic offense becomes stagnant when everybody on the floor are just at the 3pt line wanting to shoot 3s.
Simons' ability to score on drives to the basket will result in more open shots for the Cs.
Simons shoots as many of his shots from 3 as anyone in the top 6 last year outside of Horford.
Ie moving Tatum, Jrue and KP out and Simons in is moving towards more 3s not less.
165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:Celtic offense becomes stagnant when everybody on the floor are just at the 3pt line wanting to shoot 3s.
Simons' ability to score on drives to the basket will result in more open shots for the Cs.
Simons shoots as many of his shots from 3 as anyone in the top 6 last year outside of Horford.
Ie moving Tatum, Jrue and KP out and Simons in is moving towards more 3s not less.
Larry_Russell wrote:165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:Celtic offense becomes stagnant when everybody on the floor are just at the 3pt line wanting to shoot 3s.
Simons' ability to score on drives to the basket will result in more open shots for the Cs.
Simons shoots as many of his shots from 3 as anyone in the top 6 last year outside of Horford.
Ie moving Tatum, Jrue and KP out and Simons in is moving towards more 3s not less.
Kid has only watch Simons youtube videos and knows nothing of Simons game.
Fierce1 wrote:It's hard to debate when some of the posters already made up their minds about Simons.
Guess we'll just have to wait for opening night.
165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:It's hard to debate when some of the posters already made up their minds about Simons.
Guess we'll just have to wait for opening night.
Why wait?
He's going to shoot a ton of threes, long twos and floaters and not get to the line like always and people will say that he's changed since he came to Boston and that he's been influenced by JoeBall.
165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:It's hard to debate when some of the posters already made up their minds about Simons.
Guess we'll just have to wait for opening night.
Why wait?
He's going to shoot a ton of threes, long twos and floaters and not get to the line like always and people will say that he's changed since he came to Boston and that he's been influenced by JoeBall.
jmr07019 wrote:djFan71 wrote:I'm still on the trading Simons ship. The only way it makes sense to keep him this year is if you think he's a long-term fit. If not, duck the tax, and develop the guys who will possibly be long term players. Every minute Simons plays is one less for all the young guys to split. Yeah, they're not the same position exactly, but it comes out of the same pool of total minutes. Would you rather give 1800 minutes to Simons and see him walk or split that to give Baylor/Hugo/Walsh more time on the wing?
Simons would help score this year with Tatum out for sure. But with Tatum back, do you still want Simons around with the ball in his hands less? Or do you think he's going to being the one to setup Tatum/Brown/White? Either way, you need a big improvement on D and either in primary playmaking or playing off-ball. Obviously, it's all possible that he improves across the board - but it's not something he's shown much of in his career. And, if he does show all that - can we afford to resign him then? Esp over a big with that salary slot?
IMO, Brad's looking, but just trying to not spend assets to do it. And the market's weak. Sept might mean something if other teams need to be able to aggregate to get Simons, plus a few other things may unjam with the unresolved RFAs.
Simons is only 15 months older than Scheierman and a much, much better player.
Jordan Walsh has yet to prove he belongs in the league.
Hugo could barely crack the rotation in Europe and is now playing in a better league. He is likely multiple years away from contributing to a deep playoff run.
Celtics are much better off investing in Simons. Much higher chance he can contribute to a playoff run than those other 3 guys.
I get what you’re saying about not wanting to take the ball out of Tatum’s hands but I also believe having only two guys (Brown and Tatum) who could consistently bend a defense was a problem. And as much as I love JB he can be turnover prone and or have tunnel vision while driving. Whether it’s Simons or someone else Celtics need another guy who can drive the ball.
Fierce1 wrote:165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:It's hard to debate when some of the posters already made up their minds about Simons.
Guess we'll just have to wait for opening night.
Why wait?
He's going to shoot a ton of threes, long twos and floaters and not get to the line like always and people will say that he's changed since he came to Boston and that he's been influenced by JoeBall.
It's not rocket science.
Last season Simons attempted 8.5 3s per game.
But his field goal attempts is 16.1 per game.
That means half his shots are 3-pointers.
So he's not like DWhite or PP, guys that attempt more 3s than 2s.
White attempts 12.6 shots per game and 9.1 of those are 3s.
PP attempts 10.8 shots per game and 7.8 of those are 3s.
If the impression of Simons is all he does is jack up 3s then those guys are the ones only watching Simons on Youtube.
Hal14 wrote:165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:It's hard to debate when some of the posters already made up their minds about Simons.
Guess we'll just have to wait for opening night.
Why wait?
He's going to shoot a ton of threes, long twos and floaters and not get to the line like always and people will say that he's changed since he came to Boston and that he's been influenced by JoeBall.
We don't know what will happen.
None of us can predict the future.
Simons has not yet played a game for the Celtics.
165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:165bows wrote:Why wait?
He's going to shoot a ton of threes, long twos and floaters and not get to the line like always and people will say that he's changed since he came to Boston and that he's been influenced by JoeBall.
It's not rocket science.
Last season Simons attempted 8.5 3s per game.
But his field goal attempts is 16.1 per game.
That means half his shots are 3-pointers.
So he's not like DWhite or PP, guys that attempt more 3s than 2s.
White attempts 12.6 shots per game and 9.1 of those are 3s.
PP attempts 10.8 shots per game and 7.8 of those are 3s.
If the impression of Simons is all he does is jack up 3s then those guys are the ones only watching Simons on Youtube.
Yeah agree it's a big issue for this team that White/PP don't get to the rim much but the prob is neither does Simons, so if the answer to lots of threes from White/PP is more Simons non-rim 2s (where he's a 90 2P+, ie 10% below league avg efficiency inside the arc) then the question must be how's that draft choice going to be.
Hal14 wrote:165bows wrote:Fierce1 wrote:It's not rocket science.
Last season Simons attempted 8.5 3s per game.
But his field goal attempts is 16.1 per game.
That means half his shots are 3-pointers.
So he's not like DWhite or PP, guys that attempt more 3s than 2s.
White attempts 12.6 shots per game and 9.1 of those are 3s.
PP attempts 10.8 shots per game and 7.8 of those are 3s.
If the impression of Simons is all he does is jack up 3s then those guys are the ones only watching Simons on Youtube.
Yeah agree it's a big issue for this team that White/PP don't get to the rim much but the prob is neither does Simons, so if the answer to lots of threes from White/PP is more Simons non-rim 2s (where he's a 90 2P+, ie 10% below league avg efficiency inside the arc) then the question must be how's that draft choice going to be.
I just posted the numbers in terms of drives per game. It's on this page.
Simons drives the ball way more than Pritchard. He drives the ball way more than anyone on our team - besides the Jays. Not all of Simons' drives end in floaters or non-rim 2's so posting those efficiency numbers isn't very helpful.
Some of his drives end in shots at the rim, like this one:
/video/1
Some of his drives end in passes because they put the defense into rotation and leave someone open, as we see here:
While his FTr isn't very high, it's higher than D-White's FTr, it's higher than Walsh, it's higher than Jrue's was last year, it's WAY higher than Pritchard's and it's WAYYY higher than Hauser's. Plus, good things can still happen on a drive, even if you don't get to the FT line so FTr, while it is a good indicator, doesn't tell the whole story of driving ability.
Let's also factor in that Simons is gonna have better spacing here in Boston than he had in Portland. So that will help create more driving lanes and help his efficiency on shots when he drives it.
And he's entering his prime now..so he will likely be better now than he was as a younger player in Portland..and he'll likely play better now, now that he's finally out of Portland..since he wanted to get out of Portland for awhile:
https://youtu.be/FBGAM9DS29g
And he's in a contract year, so will likely play better.
And he won't have to carry as much of the offensive load, so that should also help his efficiency on shots (from 3, from mid range and at the rim) since he will carry less of the load, won't be facing the opposing team's best perimeter defender anymore..)
djFan71 wrote:jmr07019 wrote:djFan71 wrote:I'm still on the trading Simons ship. The only way it makes sense to keep him this year is if you think he's a long-term fit. If not, duck the tax, and develop the guys who will possibly be long term players. Every minute Simons plays is one less for all the young guys to split. Yeah, they're not the same position exactly, but it comes out of the same pool of total minutes. Would you rather give 1800 minutes to Simons and see him walk or split that to give Baylor/Hugo/Walsh more time on the wing?
Simons would help score this year with Tatum out for sure. But with Tatum back, do you still want Simons around with the ball in his hands less? Or do you think he's going to being the one to setup Tatum/Brown/White? Either way, you need a big improvement on D and either in primary playmaking or playing off-ball. Obviously, it's all possible that he improves across the board - but it's not something he's shown much of in his career. And, if he does show all that - can we afford to resign him then? Esp over a big with that salary slot?
IMO, Brad's looking, but just trying to not spend assets to do it. And the market's weak. Sept might mean something if other teams need to be able to aggregate to get Simons, plus a few other things may unjam with the unresolved RFAs.
Simons is only 15 months older than Scheierman and a much, much better player.
Jordan Walsh has yet to prove he belongs in the league.
Hugo could barely crack the rotation in Europe and is now playing in a better league. He is likely multiple years away from contributing to a deep playoff run.
Celtics are much better off investing in Simons. Much higher chance he can contribute to a playoff run than those other 3 guys.
I get what you’re saying about not wanting to take the ball out of Tatum’s hands but I also believe having only two guys (Brown and Tatum) who could consistently bend a defense was a problem. And as much as I love JB he can be turnover prone and or have tunnel vision while driving. Whether it’s Simons or someone else Celtics need another guy who can drive the ball.
It's the combo of skillset and salary allocation. Those other guys are what we have to work with that we can retain cheaply. We need at least a few of the young/new guys to hit in order to fill in around our top 3 salaries.
I agree we could use more diversity in scoring creation - every team could. I'm just not sure we can allocate as much of our salary on a - to date - one-sided player to score behind JB and JT. It hinges on both a) Simons getting better on D, and all the smaller non-bucket skills on offense, and b) us being able to resign him significantly cheaper than his current deal. It seems to me those are pulling in opposite directions.
Hal14 wrote:djFan71 wrote:Hal14 wrote:Maybe we need to see him play for us for like half a season (or even a full season) in order to make a more informed decision about whether we think he's a long term fit.
Try before you buy..
Plus, his trade value seems to be extremely low right now..his trade value could go up once we're a few months into the season. And at that point there may be some teams with more of a need for Simons' services and will be more interested in trading for him as we get closer to the deadline..
yeah, I don't discount it's possible. It's just feels a little like blind optimism hoping his value increases substantially in 3 months here after 7 years of service, and given even less time on his contract after that point. But, it's definitely possible. Contract year has done wonders for many a player's effort/production. Just have to count on him knowing that playing the right way and doing the little things is more important than buckets in that regard.
Lux tax and more dev time for other guys outweigh the potential gain by keeping him for me, but I can see both sides.
I mainly was responding to your comment "The only way it makes sense to keep him this year is if you think he's a long-term fit."
So I said in order to have a better idea of whether he is a long term fit in Boston, it might help if we first see him play 30+ games in Boston.
165bows wrote:Dude jacks a ton of threes and has the free throw rate of Al Horford but Anfernee's 44% floater game is taking this team to the promised land idk what to say here...
...other than everyone knows this dude is on borrowed time but most can't really say why other than $$$.