Draymond Green is underrated

[zero rings]

I'm not sure they win with KD. Melo remains the line from people who get what winning play looks like and people who just can't get past PPG and iso shot making.

They wouldn’t even be able so sign KD because they’d be paying Melo a max contract for his empty stats

Take that aside. Hell leave defense off.

KD, Klay, Curry, Melo and whoever Kerr pairs with them. Do they even score more?

No, and Melo would have atrocious on/off splits

Anytime they’d go away from Steph or KD to give Melo his iso touches, they’d be doing the other team a favor.

[michaelm]

I'm not sure they win with KD. Melo remains the line from people who get what winning play looks like and people who just can't get past PPG and iso shot making.

They wouldn’t even be able so sign KD because they’d be paying Melo a max contract for his empty stats

Take that aside. Hell leave defense off.

KD, Klay, Curry, Melo and whoever Kerr pairs with them. Do they even score more?

There is only one ball. Giving it to Green so he can give it to Curry, KD or Thompson would seem a better way to go than giving it to Carmelo. 2 great ball dominant players in Wade and LeBron were a suboptimal fit.

[zero rings]

If you're not top-2 on a contender, you're a role player. Curry and Thompson were always 1-2 on the Warriors except when Durant was there. Even if you have a liberal definition of "star", less than 5% of league probably qualifies as a star at any time, so yeah most players in the league are/become role players.

Even if we say top 1% of the league. Dray was clearly a top 1% player for a number of years.

Even Draymond Green's mother and D Green himself would not argue that Draymond Green was ever top 4 in the NBA, let alone for a number of years. C'mon bruh.

He was probably a top 5 player in 14/15 and 15/16. Literally GOATed on defense, and very effective on offense those years.

[dhsilv2]

If you're not top-2 on a contender, you're a role player. Curry and Thompson were always 1-2 on the Warriors except when Durant was there. Even if you have a liberal definition of "star", less than 5% of league probably qualifies as a star at any time, so yeah most players in the league are/become role players.

Even if we say top 1% of the league. Dray was clearly a top 1% player for a number of years.

Even Draymond Green's mother would not argue that Draymond Green was ever top 4 in the NBA, let alone for a number of years. C'mon bruh.

That's fair I suppose. In my head I was picturing more players. Top 15-17 is a very generous towards the anti green guys so I guess top 3%. I think we have a good case he peaked top 10ish.

None the less it doesn't address the bigger picture here on the role player stuff.

Perhaps another way to look at it. Are you tasked with a primary decision maker role and/or scoring role. That's a good way to judge who the central guys are for an offense. But you have to look at defense as equally important in terms of is there a primary decision maker (certainly Dray but you'll see it from a lot of guys who are constantly barking on defense) on defense. Or a guy you're essentially funneling teams to (think Gobert Deke types). Those are your decision makers and are not simple "roles" but have huge responsibilities.

Klay most certainly was rarely a primary scorer and I can't recall ever seeing him in a leadership role in terms of decision making with the ball.

[zero rings]

No. Green is vastly overrated, mainly by folks who are data nerds and love advanced stats. Green deserves lots of credit for his pivotal role on G State's championship teams, but people have gone too far with the praise for role players.

I think we've reached peak "everyone is a role player" if Dray is. A DPOY who is near the league leaders in assists being called a role player is the same as calling Jordan one.

If you're not top-2 on a contender, you're a role player. Curry and Thompson were always 1-2 on the Warriors except when Durant was there. Even if you have a liberal definition of "star", less than 5% of league probably qualifies as a star at any time, so yeah most players in the league are/become role players.

Dray vs Klay is basically a basketball IQ test.

If you think Klay was the more valuable player, you failed the test.

[dhsilv2]

They wouldn’t even be able so sign KD because they’d be paying Melo a max contract for his empty stats

Take that aside. Hell leave defense off.

KD, Klay, Curry, Melo and whoever Kerr pairs with them. Do they even score more?

There is only one ball. Giving it to Green so hr can give it to Curry, KD or Thompson would seem a better way to go than giving it to Carmelo. 2 great ball dominant players in Wade and LeBron were a suboptimal fit.

This is true but the point is there is one ball. You need someone distributing that ball and it's REALLY important. KD is average at best doing it and Melo is rather poor. Curry's strengths aren't being with the ball which kills what made the warriors work. And klay...lol. Don't give him the ball to make decisions.

[bonita_the_frog]

If Golden State had won Game 7 in the 2016 NBA Finals (Cavs won 93-89), Green would have won Finals MVP.
Green averaged 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .486 field, .406 threes
Curry averaged 22.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.7 blocks, .403 field, .400 threes

[Bergmaniac]

This obsession with being "Top 2" option on offence is so bizarre to me. Being the best defender in the league is much more valuable than being a good second option.

Draymond has clearly been the best playoff defender in the hardest to play defence era in NBA history. And on offense he is far from a liability, sure he doesn't score much but his passing and ballhandling are very valuable. His impact stats are off the charts and no, that's not only because of Curry. I just can't take seriously people who despite all this claim he is "just a role player" or even more absurdly "this player can be found every draft probably multiple times" and " If he was drafted into charlotte he'd be a nobody, and out of the league for a long time".

[Capn'O]

This obsession with being "Top 2" option on offence is so bizarre to me. Being the best defender in the league is much more valuable than being a good second option.

Draymond has clearly been the best playoff defender in the hardest to play defence era in NBA history. And on offense he is far from a liability, sure he doesn't score much but his passing and ballhandling are very valuable. His impact stats are off the charts and no, that's not only because of Curry. I just can't take seriously people who despite all this claim he is "just a role player" or even more absurdly "this player can be found every draft probably multiple times" and " If he was drafted into charlotte he'd be a nobody, and out of the league for a long time".

He is a role player though. One of the top 3 to ever play the game. But a role player nonetheless and not a primary offensive option.

He'd be valued on any team but, like an Horry or Rodman, he's most valuable to a great team with great, defined primary offensive options. If he was being asked to be a primary offensive option over the course of a season, his value is lessened.

Ironically, a player you can probably extrapolate how he'd play on a team like the Hornets from a previous era was Anthony Mason going to the Hornets. Mason was more productive across the board than he was on the Knicks and was a core player on a good team for the Hornets with Glen Rice exploding as a primary option. They just didn't have the firepower to advance in the playoffs.

Mason had a lot in common with Green and was a huge part of those early 90s Knicks and then some good Hornets teams but never had a Curry/Klay combo around him.

[og15]

draymond green has high bball iq and can defend. this player can be found every draft probably multiple times. draymond green is nothing special. the only thing, that is special about him is his mentality and willingness to take techs for his team (or knock them out cold). If he was drafted into charlotte he'd be a nobody, and out of the league for a long time. fortunately for him, he was on the right roster at the right time. A coach, that enables his (sometimes) unacceptable behavior and the greatest shooting duo of all time, that convert his lousy passes at an incredible rate.

Yet teams are not consistently finding them. Where are they going?

[Capn'O]

draymond green has high bball iq and can defend. this player can be found every draft probably multiple times. draymond green is nothing special. the only thing, that is special about him is his mentality and willingness to take techs for his team (or knock them out cold). If he was drafted into charlotte he'd be a nobody, and out of the league for a long time. fortunately for him, he was on the right roster at the right time. A coach, that enables his (sometimes) unacceptable behavior and the greatest shooting duo of all time, that convert his lousy passes at an incredible rate.

Yet teams are not consistently finding them. Where are they going?

Yeah, that's ridiculous. He's exceptional at what he does.

[tsherkin]

Very good player. Had a peak where he had more offensive threat than he does these days, which was when he was at his most valuable, of course. But yeah, with his D and passing, he's a high-end player. You need scoring around him, which makes it very challenging to build a team where he would be the best guy on the team, because good scoring is expensive (especially coupled to competent passing).

Regardless, Draymond is an excellent player. Just an atypical archetype, so a little harder for some to appreciate. Sort of the same way that Ben Wallace got underappreciated on the Pistons (although Draymond is obviously better on O).

[NZB2323]

Even if we say top 1% of the league. Dray was clearly a top 1% player for a number of years.

Even Draymond Green's mother and D Green himself would not argue that Draymond Green was ever top 4 in the NBA, let alone for a number of years. C'mon bruh.

He was probably a top 5 player in 14/15 and 15/16. Literally GOATed on defense, and very effective on offense those years.

Part of it is the system. Green won 15 games in 2020 when he was the best player on the team.

Lebron
Curry
Durant
Kawhi
Harden
Kawhi
Anthony Davis
CP3

You could maybe argue for Green at 9 after these guys, but even then there’s guys like Dame, Butler, PG13, and Kyrie.

[70sFan]

Carmelo Anthony had a great NBA career and is probably Team USA's best player of all-time.

Ok, he's still not close to Green in terms of NBA peak.

Green never had to be the #1 option on any team. Hell, he's never been a top-3 option on offense. You're comparing apples and oranges.

Melo never had to be #1 defender on any team. Hell, he's never been a top-5 defender on any team.

Why being #1-2 scorer on the team matters so much for people? It's significantly easier to find a 1st offensive option on Melo caliber than to find a defender of Greene's caliber.

[dhsilv2]

Even Draymond Green's mother and D Green himself would not argue that Draymond Green was ever top 4 in the NBA, let alone for a number of years. C'mon bruh.

He was probably a top 5 player in 14/15 and 15/16. Literally GOATed on defense, and very effective on offense those years.

Part of it is the system. Green won 15 games in 2020 when he was the best player on the team.

Lebron
Curry
Durant
Kawhi
Harden
Kawhi
Anthony Davis
CP3

You could maybe argue for Green at 9 after these guys, but even then there’s guys like Dame, Butler, PG13, and Kyrie.

I'm going to take a guy who can't carry a bad team like Dray over a guy like Dame outside of when he's just on fire. Similar feeling with Kyrie. PG13 and Butler are one's you can argue about for sure. Not sure Kawhi in 2016 let alone 2015 is a good one. 2017 for sure.

But yeah players need support. And Dray, who was hurt and only played like 44 games in 2020, didn't have any support that year. It's odd how people act like he was healthy and played fully that year.

[dhsilv2]

draymond green has high bball iq and can defend. this player can be found every draft probably multiple times. draymond green is nothing special. the only thing, that is special about him is his mentality and willingness to take techs for his team (or knock them out cold). If he was drafted into charlotte he'd be a nobody, and out of the league for a long time. fortunately for him, he was on the right roster at the right time. A coach, that enables his (sometimes) unacceptable behavior and the greatest shooting duo of all time, that convert his lousy passes at an incredible rate.

OK...gives us 20 guys who are high IQ and elite defenders from the last 20 drafts. I'll wait...

[LeBronSpaghetti]

If Golden State had won Game 7 in the 2016 NBA Finals (Cavs won 93-89), Green would have won Finals MVP.
Green averaged 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .486 field, .406 threes
Curry averaged 22.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.7 blocks, .403 field, .400 threes

But they didn’t win that series and he’s a major reason why. Voters would never have given it to a guy who missed a game in that series due to his inability to control himself.

[bonita_the_frog]

If Golden State had won Game 7 in the 2016 NBA Finals (Cavs won 93-89), Green would have won Finals MVP.
Green averaged 16.5 points, 10.3 rebounds, 6.3 assists, 1.7 steals, 1.0 blocks, .486 field, .406 threes
Curry averaged 22.6 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.7 assists, 0.9 steals, 0.7 blocks, .403 field, .400 threes

But they didn’t win that series and he’s a major reason why. Voters would never have given it to a guy who missed a game in that series due to his inability to control himself.

Oh i didn't realize voters were so mean.
It wasn't Green's fault they lost, he did his job and played great defense, as the Cavs only scored 18 points in the 4th quarter...
GS scored 13 points, because of Curry and Thompson not doing their job in the 4thQ.

[reddyplayerone]

Dude's been a backpack his whole career

And really it has everything to do with his emotional instability. He's proven time and again that he simply would have been incapable of fulfilling a role any more demanding than that of a glorified role player who had more stable, better players around him to prop him up and keep him from imploding

[Lalouie]

he is rated EXACTLY where he should be

he has had a habit of quitting or finding a way to get exorcised from the game when curry's not in the lineup,,,you can fill in the blanks with your stats if you like, but at the same time add that he cost gsw a ring and, upsettingly, gave lebron that ring