Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[The4thHorseman]

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

And yet he returned to play for the…wizards

So he could achieve 30,000 points (which for some reason he received a trophy and celebration mid-court for that even though others had already past 30,000) and put asses in the seats.

[Yank3525]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

He gets a pass for going back home and winning his first title against a team with the greatest record of all time.

But you’d prefer him to stay in Miami, why? Can yall even communicate why it’s so important that he stays with teams he signed with after becoming a free agent?

Because they are much better run organization. The argument Lebron fans have been peddling for years is that first stint Cavs were poorly run. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Why leave them to go back to the Cavs that is still run by Dan Gilbert? Don't give me the crap about bringing a title to Cleveland. If he loved Cleveland so much, he wouldn't have left the second time.

Great player, but a complete opportunist.

[Yank3525]

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

And yet he returned to play for the…wizards

So he could achieve 30,000 points (which for some reason he received a trophy and celebration mid-court for that even though others had already past 30,000) and put asses in the seats.

If Mike cared about that he wouldn't have retired the first time.

[The4thHorseman]

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

He was also 35 years old with nothing left to prove.

Wouldn't that be considered a big challenge that Jordan allegedly looked and lived for?

[The4thHorseman]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

[firedavidkahn]

It's always the ones without rings who criticize those with rings the most.

[firedavidkahn]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

Riley is an interesting case. He absolutely deserves all the praise he gets over the course of his entire career. But he's lost touch in the twilight of his career. He bought into his own hype and became too stubborn.

[Rust_Cohle]

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

And yet he returned to play for the…wizards

So he could achieve 30,000 points (which for some reason he received a trophy and celebration mid-court for that even though others had already past 30,000) and put asses in the seats.

He gave away his entire salary on the team at a veteran’s minimum. If MJ cared about stats he would’ve never retired to begin with.

[Rust_Cohle]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

Multiple finals appearances since LeBron left, rebuilding the entire team and getting them back into the finals within 5 years of a complete rebuild.

[The4thHorseman]

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

Multiple finals appearances since LeBron left, rebuilding the entire team and getting them back into the finals within 5 years of a complete rebuild.

So now Finals appearances count for something in the supposed garbage East? You guys need to make up your mind.

[Biff]

Stockton is just bitter he never won anything. You got 2 guys that are supposed top 5 at their position and can't get it done. Boohoo, John.

[Yank3525]

He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

Gone to two finals without having a consensus top 5 player.

[Iwasawitness]

Why should LeBron get a pass on this? The whole point of leaving Cleveland is that the Cavs front office sucked and didn't build a good team around him. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Yeah, they were going to have to go through a slight reset, but Pat Riley has shown he can get it done. Instead LeBron decides to "go home" (really because Cavs had a bunch of assets and Kyrie.)

LeBron is a top 3-5 player of all-time. But dude is the biggest opportunist in NBA history.

He gets a pass for going back home and winning his first title against a team with the greatest record of all time.

But you’d prefer him to stay in Miami, why? Can yall even communicate why it’s so important that he stays with teams he signed with after becoming a free agent?

Because they are much better run organization. The argument Lebron fans have been peddling for years is that first stint Cavs were poorly run. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Why leave them to go back to the Cavs that is still run by Dan Gilbert? Don't give me the crap about bringing a title to Cleveland. If he loved Cleveland so much, he wouldn't have left the second time.

Great player, but a complete opportunist.

It's not necessarily a matter of loving Cleveland (which I think he does).

LeBron is an opportunist as you said. He knew ending the Cleveland sports curse would be his greatest accomplishment. So yes, it was definitely about bringing a title to the city.

[Mazter]

Because they are much better run organization. The argument Lebron fans have been peddling for years is that first stint Cavs were poorly run. Miami is one of the most stable organizations in the league. Why leave them to go back to the Cavs that is still run by Dan Gilbert? Don't give me the crap about bringing a title to Cleveland. If he loved Cleveland so much, he wouldn't have left the second time.

Great player, but a complete opportunist.

Ok, so just because you didn't or don't like the moves he is "a complete opportunist"?

There have always been moves. The only reason why it becomes a problem with LeBron is because he won a ring within two years after every move. He made all of them work. But that doesn't make him a bigger or complete opportunist. Such moves have been made since the dawn of the league.
If I had to mention some:
KD going to the 73-wins Warriors
Barkley going to the 53-wins Suns
Shaq going to the 53-wins Lakers
Kawhi going to the 59-wins Raptors
Wilt going to the 52-wins Lakers
Dwight going to the 41-25 Lakers
Geroge Paul joining Westbrook in OKC
George Paul joining Kawhi with the Clippers
Drexler joining the defending champs in Houston
Pippen joining the 35-15 Blazers
Durant and Harden joining Kyrie in Brooklyn
Even the Bulls recruiting Rodman can be seen as an opportunistic move.

It's just part of seeing the landscape differently than the organization your part of or situation your in, and moving on or changing it when necessary. Eventually, everybody is an opportunist when not happy with their current situation.

[ShootersShoot]

Yet the players we compare LeBron too played for organizations that were able to do just that.

The combination of an old beaten down team and the opportunity to win a ring in his home state? Do you guys know these people are actual humans? But you wanted him to waste another year or two of his prime for the Heat to retool?

What teams are you referring to? Only the bulls and spurs have maintained an elite team for over 5 seasons since the 90s

Why limit to since the 90s? Let’s really look back and realize it’s organizations that create elite teams, no players:

Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Russell,

Those Celtic teams, those Laker teams, pre Shaq and post Shaq, Curry and the GSW

The shaq/kobe lakers were contenders for like 4 seasons before breaking up..it took 4 yrs for them to get back into contention post shaq. I would not count that as sustained success for longer than 5 seasons.

Warriors..they contended for 5 seasons..then had to retool in 2020 after losing KD, losing klay for two seasons, and iguodala aging out...so yea we have an example of a superstar allowing the team to retool around him.

So neither of those teams really had much longer sustained success than the heat with bron on it. Warriors had one more season of contention than brons heat team before they had to retool which isnt a huge difference.

If we count the 80s celts/lakers, mj bulls, and duncan spurs..thats 4 teams in 45 years that were able to be championship contenders and win chips in a longer than 5 year span.
So yea, I would say its difficult wouldnt you? In the era lebron played, only one team really fits that criteria (spurs), and thats spanning two decades plus.

[ropjhk]

What has Riley shown since the 2015 season?

Multiple finals appearances since LeBron left, rebuilding the entire team and getting them back into the finals within 5 years of a complete rebuild.

So now Finals appearances count for something in the supposed garbage East? You guys need to make up your mind.

Are you saying that they are meaningless?

[BigGargamel]

Imagine caring what John Stockton has to say about anything.

[Mephariel]

It's not any different if it was AD for his entire career but it wasn't. Imagine if Jordan instead of staying with Pippen to beat the pistons decided to team up with Hakeem and Barkley in Houston, then decided to team with Gary Payton and Shawn Kemp in Seattle. Decided to go to LA and made the Lakers trade for Shaq. When that wasn't enough make the Lakers trade Shaq for Kobe. Replace those names with whoever you want.

Jordan played a career wth the same teammates. Injuries, old age and whatever else. Lebron played with first Dwade & Bosh. Then Kyrie and Kevin Love. Then AD and now Luka. Literal top 3 in their position, HoF, ALL-NBA players in their actual primes. Not to mention the role players were elite around them.

Personally, I think Lebron's a phenomenal all-time player but his "decisions" have put a ceiling on where I would rank him All-time. I actually think these decisions made for a poorer outcome for him. He held himself back. He probably would still have 4 championships had he stayed in Cleveland rather than build teams everywhere else. The way he did it we'll never know.

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!

This doesn't change anything I said. The fact is, Lebron never had anything close to Pippen as a second option in his first 7 years in Cleveland. Depending on how you view Wade at the time, he arguably never had a second option like Pippen until AD.

Again, Jordan doesn't have to run because Pippen was there. Who in Cleveland was going to develop into Pippen?

[The4thHorseman]

Multiple finals appearances since LeBron left, rebuilding the entire team and getting them back into the finals within 5 years of a complete rebuild.

So now Finals appearances count for something in the supposed garbage East? You guys need to make up your mind.

Are you saying that they are meaningless?

No, not at all. It's just funny how the East is supposed garbage when a James team wins the ECF, but when the Heat win it a few times after 2014 then people say it's a great accomplishment.

[Darthlukey]

If you did read my original post, it did say 2016 might be the exception. 1 year in ~22 does not undo a career of cowardice and avoiding adversity whenever possible

He was a coward by signing with the 17 win Cavs who drafted him? Wouldn't he have pulled a Kobe and tell Cleveland (New Jersey in Kobe's case) not to draft him if he was avoiding adversity?

You think MJ walking away a second time had nothing to do with Phil, Scottie and Rodman not going to be in Chicago that following season? After all, he did previously say he wouldn't play for any other coach than Phil.

Was Kobe a Coward for demanding a trade and/or threatening to sign with the Clippers if the Lakers didn't give him more talent after he demanded they jetison an ATG big because he couldn't compete for championships for two years...after the org demonstrated their capacity to build a dynasty?

Probably, but I wasnt talking about kobe (he has his own set of issues)