Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Darthlukey]

Jordan stayed with Pippen because Pippen was the perfect 2nd option throughout the years for him and they were winning. Why would he leave? Lebron carried the Cavs for 7 years with no second option, so he left to search for one. If Lebron had Pippen and they were winning in Cleveland, he wouldn't have left for Miami. He left Miami because both Bosh and Wade were clearly past their primes at that point.

BTW, Scottie Pippen averaged 22.0 points, 8.7 rebounds, 5.6 assists and 2.9 steals per game the year after Jordan retired and the Bulls won 55 games. Pippen was an MVP candidate and selected All-defensive first team. He was one hell of a second option.

Pippen didnt start as an all time talent or elite player, he was developed into that - Jordan didnt run to him after he was already great!

This doesn't change anything I said. The fact is, Lebron never had anything close to Pippen as a second option in his first 7 years in Cleveland. Depending on how you view Wade at the time, he arguably never had a second option like Pippen until AD.

Again, Jordan doesn't have to run because Pippen was there. Who in Cleveland was going to develop into Pippen?

What about a career of running though? Its not just Cle to Mia, its followed by Mia to Cle and then to Lal and orchestrated getting AD when the team wasnt stacked enough. Running for greener pastures wasnt a once off, its been a career trend

[Cavsfansince84]

What about a career of running though? Its not just Cle to Mia, its followed by Mia to Cle and then to Lal and orchestrated getting AD when the team wasnt stacked enough. Running for greener pastures wasnt a once off, its been a career trend

What about it? 22 year career and has played for 3 teams. I don't understand why him switching teams troubles you or anyone else. KD is now on his 5th team in only 18 seasons. Do I care? No, not really. CP3 has played for 7 teams in 20 years. Again, don't care. It only matters to people with LeBron because they are desperate for some reason to try and demean what he's accomplished in his career.

[Ruma85]

What about a career of running though? Its not just Cle to Mia, its followed by Mia to Cle and then to Lal and orchestrated getting AD when the team wasnt stacked enough. Running for greener pastures wasnt a once off, its been a career trend

What about it? 22 year career and has played for 3 teams. I don't understand why him switching teams troubles you or anyone else. KD is now on his 5th team in only 18 seasons. Do I care? No, not really. CP3 has played for 7 teams in 20 years. Again, don't care. It only matters to people with LeBron because they are desperate for some reason to try and demean what he's accomplished in his career.

Well he only did it to himself, the issue is when you keep jumping ship it cheapens your value overall.

[Cavsfansince84]

Well he only did it to himself, the issue is when you keep jumping ship it cheapens your value overall.

He didn't do anything to himself. That's the point here. This is a completely subjective, somewhat biased I would say narrative that anything that he's accomplished is cheap. Look at the teams he went up against in the finals. The only finals he played in where it felt like his team had a big advantage was in 2020. Some of those his teams were way outgunned like in 07, 17&18.

[Ruma85]

Well he only did it to himself, the issue is when you keep jumping ship it cheapens your value overall.

He didn't do anything to himself. That's the point here. This is a completely subjective, somewhat biased I would say narrative that anything that he's accomplished is cheap. Look at the teams he went up against in the finals. The only finals he played in where it felt like his team had a big advantage was in 2020. Some of those his teams were way outgunned like in 07, 17&18.

Well we can just agree to disagree here, as this thread as gone far enough.

[michaelm]

This is dumb and disingenuous.



Yea, because Jordan had a competent GM in Jerry Krause who got him Scottie, who didn't listen to him when he wanted to keep Oakley and got Cartwright instead, who drafted Kukoc, who traded for Rodman. If Jerrry Krause doesn't nail those moves, you think Michael Jordan would've continued to stay with the Bulls and lose in the first round repeatedly? He would've also demanded a trade.

LeBron's best teammates in the first five years of his career were Mo Williams and Big Z. The Cavs couldn't build a good enough team around him.

Sounds like its always someone elses fault but lebrons, which always seems to be the case

So it's LeBron's fault the Cavs didn't know what they were doing his first seven years of his career?

Of course not, He gave the Cavs a more than adequate try the first time, and didn’t really have the option Stockton considers he should have taken.

His post 2010 option taking in regard to influencing team construction, running of coaching merry go rounds, preferred playing scheme etc are no problem of Michael Jordan’s however.

[DimesandKnicks]

What teams are you referring to? Only the bulls and spurs have maintained an elite team for over 5 seasons since the 90s

Why limit to since the 90s? Let’s really look back and realize it’s organizations that create elite teams, no players:

Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Russell,

Those Celtic teams, those Laker teams, pre Shaq and post Shaq, Curry and the GSW

The shaq/kobe lakers were contenders for like 4 seasons before breaking up..it took 4 yrs for them to get back into contention post shaq. I would not count that as sustained success for longer than 5 seasons.

Warriors..they contended for 5 seasons..then had to retool in 2020 after losing KD, losing klay for two seasons, and iguodala aging out...so yea we have an example of a superstar allowing the team to retool around him.

So neither of those teams really had much longer sustained success than the heat with bron on it. Warriors had one more season of contention than brons heat team before they had to retool which isnt a huge difference.

If we count the 80s celts/lakers, mj bulls, and duncan spurs..thats 4 teams in 45 years that were able to be championship contenders and win chips in a longer than 5 year span.
So yea, I would say its difficult wouldnt you? In the era lebron played, only one team really fits that criteria (spurs), and thats spanning two decades plus.

The Lakers had at least the third-best title odds every year from Shaq’s arrival, held the top odds in ’98, won three straight titles, and stayed contenders for two more years — about eight straight years at the top before a short three-year gap post-Shaq.

The Warriors aren’t an example of a player “letting” them retool. They won three titles in four years, went to five straight Finals, then missed contention for just two seasons — one due to Curry’s injury — while adding young tradable assets like Wiggins, Poole, and Wiseman who could be leveraged in a trade for more ready talent.

Not to mention, Curry was under contract, and even if he wasn’t, where could he have gone that offered a better shot at another title while staying in the city where he raised his family.

When the team that drafted you builds a roster so dominant you win three rings without a Finals MVP, and they “retool” into both a proven veteran squad and a youth-loaded asset base, they’ve earned goodwill.

The Heat, had no such pipeline after LeBron, Wade, and Bosh — those stars came together on their own, and the organization had no future assets to stay in contention.

[ClubLakers KB8]

He stacked the deck after the deck was stacked against him. It became the new norm.

[Nate505]

Stockton is just bitter he never won anything. You got 2 guys that are supposed top 5 at their position and can't get it done. Boohoo, John.

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

[Iwasawitness]

He stacked the deck after the deck was stacked against him. It became the new norm.

No, he didn't.

[Nate505]

Imagine caring what John Stockton has to say about anything.

30+ pages leaves little to the imagination.

[Nate505]

So, it seems like Old Man Yelling at Clouds Stockton is coming on strong with the takes lately. He said this recently about the NBA:

"Things that I see, I do think it's soft, where you have guys that can take, like, twenty days off. What do they call it, load management? Can you imagine your dad coming, 'I'mma take a few weeks work off.' You know? Well, who is going to feed us then? These guys do it, and they are supposed to be examples and the league allows it,"

From what I've gathered from this thread, there have been 10-20 responses saying that Stockton's criticism of LeBron has no merit because he never won a title. Understandable, because in life criticism is only accepted from those who have been there before. Or so I hear.

Anyways, using that logic, we can conclude that this opinion has merit, right? Given Stockton was one of the toughest SOBs to ever play and was an absolute ironman in his career. Right? Or how does all this logic work?

[Yank3525]

Stockton is just bitter he never won anything. You got 2 guys that are supposed top 5 at their position and can't get it done. Boohoo, John.

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

Same people who are saying Stockton can't talk are also the same people who whine about ring culture.

[michaelm]

Stockton is just bitter he never won anything. You got 2 guys that are supposed top 5 at their position and can't get it done. Boohoo, John.

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

Same people who are saying Stockton can't talk are also the same people who whine about ring culture.

Yes, there are many number 2 option players worse than Stockton who have won a title, but that doesn’t mean winning titles is nothing, it is in fact the object of the sport. They are more meaningful imo than making so called advanced statistics which purport to show contribution to team success an end in itself.

[Memories]

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

Same people who are saying Stockton can't talk are also the same people who whine about ring culture.

Yes, there are many number 2 option players worse than Stockton who have won a title, but that doesn’t mean winning titles is nothing, it is in fact the object of the sport. They are more meaningful imo than making so called advanced statistics which purport to show contribution to team success an end in itself.

Its not to say winning titles are nothing. But are we now diminishing the accomplishments of great players because they didn't win an NBA championship.

Dan Marino never won a Superbowl, yet no one and their grandfather would EVER talk about him as anything else than one of the best of all time to throw a football.

[michaelm]

Why limit to since the 90s? Let’s really look back and realize it’s organizations that create elite teams, no players:

Bird, Magic, Kareem, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Russell,

Those Celtic teams, those Laker teams, pre Shaq and post Shaq, Curry and the GSW

The shaq/kobe lakers were contenders for like 4 seasons before breaking up..it took 4 yrs for them to get back into contention post shaq. I would not count that as sustained success for longer than 5 seasons.

Warriors..they contended for 5 seasons..then had to retool in 2020 after losing KD, losing klay for two seasons, and iguodala aging out...so yea we have an example of a superstar allowing the team to retool around him.

So neither of those teams really had much longer sustained success than the heat with bron on it. Warriors had one more season of contention than brons heat team before they had to retool which isnt a huge difference.

If we count the 80s celts/lakers, mj bulls, and duncan spurs..thats 4 teams in 45 years that were able to be championship contenders and win chips in a longer than 5 year span.
So yea, I would say its difficult wouldnt you? In the era lebron played, only one team really fits that criteria (spurs), and thats spanning two decades plus.

The Lakers had at least the third-best title odds every year from Shaq’s arrival, held the top odds in ’98, won three straight titles, and stayed contenders for two more years — about eight straight years at the top before a short three-year gap post-Shaq.

The Warriors aren’t an example of a player “letting” them retool. They won three titles in four years, went to five straight Finals, then missed contention for just two seasons — one due to Curry’s injury — while adding young tradable assets like Wiggins, Poole, and Wiseman who could be leveraged in a trade for more ready talent.

Not to mention, Curry was under contract, and even if he wasn’t, where could he have gone that offered a better shot at another title while staying in the city where he raised his family.

When the team that drafted you builds a roster so dominant you win three rings without a Finals MVP, and they “retool” into both a proven veteran squad and a youth-loaded asset base, they’ve earned goodwill.

The Heat, had no such pipeline after LeBron, Wade, and Bosh — those stars came together on their own, and the organization had no future assets to stay in contention.

Yes, only other people have agendas.

GSW are a particularly poor example to offer in support of your argument Ask Andre Iguodala whether the organisation or Steph Curry is more responsible for their recent success. Curry was also drafted by the previous completely hopeless ownership and management. GSW may serendipitously or due to tanking for a year have had the draft choices to revamp their team but hardly used them successfully. The management/ownership were indeed prepared to pay a large amount of luxury tax to sign Wiggins and I love the guy and what he gave GSW, but he was seen as one of the worst contracts in the NBA at the time and they were ridiculed for signing him. His success at GSW compared to elsewhere just might have had something to do with Curry and particularly Draymond Green who many are calling over-rated on another current thread. Klay Thompson was crocked by then and pretty much a role player for the less than half season he played in the season they won the 4th title. Poole was picked 29th, and has been an inefficient chucker away from Curry and Green. Players like the aforementioned Iguodala and KD are on the record as saying they joined GSW to play with Curry, and David West is probably similar and effusive about how great it was to be on Curry’s team. I don’t know why you think OPJ and Bjelica joined GSW, but GSW were only a prime ring chasing destination in retrospect, and both were out of the NBA within a year or so afterwards. GP3 was literally passed over by every team in the NBA including GSW initially iirc, and has also not thrived away from Curry and Green.

[Yank3525]

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

Same people who are saying Stockton can't talk are also the same people who whine about ring culture.

Yes, there are many number 2 option players worse than Stockton who have won a title, but that doesn’t mean winning titles is nothing, it is in fact the object of the sport. They are more meaningful imo than making so called advanced statistics which purport to show contribution to team success an end in itself.

That isn't my point

My point is that some of these people are hypocrites. They will talk about how titles aren't everything and then tell you Stockton can't talk on this issue because he never won. It is not like the guy didn't go to two finals (so he knows what it takes to get there) and is a top 75 player.

[Darthlukey]

What about a career of running though? Its not just Cle to Mia, its followed by Mia to Cle and then to Lal and orchestrated getting AD when the team wasnt stacked enough. Running for greener pastures wasnt a once off, its been a career trend

What about it? 22 year career and has played for 3 teams. I don't understand why him switching teams troubles you or anyone else. KD is now on his 5th team in only 18 seasons. Do I care? No, not really. CP3 has played for 7 teams in 20 years. Again, don't care. It only matters to people with LeBron because they are desperate for some reason to try and demean what he's accomplished in his career.

3 teams and 3 escapes! And what KD has done is a joke also, but I suspect it was Lebron's moves that enabled players like KD to pull the same stunts

[Darthlukey]

Well he only did it to himself, the issue is when you keep jumping ship it cheapens your value overall.

He didn't do anything to himself. That's the point here. This is a completely subjective, somewhat biased I would say narrative that anything that he's accomplished is cheap. Look at the teams he went up against in the finals. The only finals he played in where it felt like his team had a big advantage was in 2020. Some of those his teams were way outgunned like in 07, 17&18.

It is very subjective, but its hard to argue to consistently running away from adversity for greener pastures isn't a weak move

[Darthlukey]

So as long as someone who won something said this, it would totally be true.

Same people who are saying Stockton can't talk are also the same people who whine about ring culture.

Yes, there are many number 2 option players worse than Stockton who have won a title, but that doesn’t mean winning titles is nothing, it is in fact the object of the sport. They are more meaningful imo than making so called advanced statistics which purport to show contribution to team success an end in itself.

I would argue (huge call I know) that Stockton wasn't the 2 on that team