Josh Giddey Thread 2.0

[dougthonus]

Maybe Matas is that unicorn and will be a 2nd scorer plus elite defender and allow the team to be successful even if Giddey is materially less than what the end-season numbers showed. But that is asking a heck of a lot out of the kid.

Even then, the team in that spot would likely be better off with a PG who either can score more at a high efficiency, and doesn't put so much pressure on others to make up the difference, or who at least plays strong D (or isn't as big a liability, at least).

This is more or less where OKC was at. They had unicorns around Giddey, but he wasn't good enough to have the ball relative to their other guys, and with the ball less, his weaknesses were magnified.

That is the risk w/ Giddey - if he isn't a 2nd option scorer - he kind of cripples your team - caps the ceiling.

The flip side of this is that this is only relevant if we get two scorers better than Giddey which is probably necessary to build an elite team, but if we sign Giddey to a four year deal, that's almost certainly not going to happen and at 25M you can probably pivot off Giddey easily if you need to anyway, and his other skills making him a quality guy that can make you more competitive on a team that isn't competing (which is likely the reality of our present state and management path).

[ChettheJet]

I didn't say he was average, nor did I say he was on the level of Ayo or Tre Jones. I said he was a role player, and you and I are talking about different things with that phrasing perhaps, but I described in great depth in many points what I meant by the phrase. I said I think he is a 4th starter caliber player on a championship team, and I think 25M is a reasonable rate going forward for such a player.

He will play a bigger than that role on the Bulls, because we aren't a championship team (similar to Coby whom will be in the same boat). On an elite team, Giddey is not going to be one of the key players driving wins and losses. Hence role player vs foundational piece (or star player). Role players are not all the same though, nor do they all have the same value.

If you want to declare Giddey a role player that's fine but the role he likely will play for the Bulls is different than he would on NOP, OKC or NYK.

The Bulls have very few players who really get the ball and work to get their own shot. Ayo, Jones, Matas even Giddey can drive to the basket, Coby as well and he's got the step back shot from the logo in. But Huerter, Patrick at times, Vuc, Collins and Smith ca knock down an open jumper. The easiest wins they got last year were when they get 27+ assists, maybe Coby dominating the scoring but nobody else really pouring in 25 or more. Those nights when Josh gets the 17 assists, and still scores 22, he's finding guys for the shots they make a good percentage of, not just giving up the ball and having somebody manufacture shots. The role he fills for the Bulls suits him because they don't have clear and consistent #2 and #3 scorers, different guys step up on different nights so Giddey has to do more than just hit the same guys each night, he's got to keep track of who's night it is and keep getting the hot hand the ball. That's when his assist numbers get big.

I think he's in a great situation with the Bulls to best use his skillset, he'll look like an improved player if a few guys like Ayo, Patrick and Okoro up their shooting percentages just a bit. I he recognizes where he's at with the Bulls and that he only needs others to make the slight improvements.

[Infinity2152]

Maybe Matas is that unicorn and will be a 2nd scorer plus elite defender and allow the team to be successful even if Giddey is materially less than what the end-season numbers showed. But that is asking a heck of a lot out of the kid.

Even then, the team in that spot would likely be better off with a PG who either can score more at a high efficiency, and doesn't put so much pressure on others to make up the difference, or who at least plays strong D (or isn't as big a liability, at least).

This is more or less where OKC was at. They had unicorns around Giddey, but he wasn't good enough to have the ball relative to their other guys, and with the ball less, his weaknesses were magnified.

That is the risk w/ Giddey - if he isn't a 2nd option scorer - he kind of cripples your team - caps the ceiling.

The flip side of this is that this is only relevant if we get two scorers better than Giddey which is probably necessary to build an elite team, but if we sign Giddey to a four year deal, that's almost certainly not going to happen and at 25M you can probably pivot off Giddey easily if you need to anyway, and his other skills making him a quality guy that can make you more competitive on a team that isn't competing (which is likely the reality of our present state and management path).

Disagree we couldn't get two scorers with Giddey on a four year/$30 mill AAV. Especially a flat contract. Even if both those players were max players, how many contending teams have two max players and at least one player making $30 mill or close? Most of them? How much are we paying these two "better than Giddey" scorers, doesn't sound like the bar is that high in your opinion? Desmond Bane? Coby White? Porzingas? Matas Buzelis? He's hopefully one of our three top players in years to come, remember. most he will be able to get is rookie max in a few years. Matas would be our fourth best player in your scenario where Giddey is #3 and we pay two max superstars. That's also not counting our 18 yr old lottery pick who hasn't played a real game yet and will be cheap for years.

One vet max player would have to provide close to twice the value of Giddey at $30 mill to equal the cap impact alone. Who we get with the max contracts is far more important value wise. We get Jaylen Brown, Embid for instance. I'd be fine with Giddey, White, Brown, Matas, Embid. Be willing to pay 1st apron penalty for it, but don't think we'd need to depending on White's contract.

[dougthonus]

If you want to declare Giddey a role player that's fine but the role he likely will play for the Bulls is different than he would on NOP, OKC or NYK.

The Bulls have very few players who really get the ball and work to get their own shot. Ayo, Jones, Matas even Giddey can drive to the basket, Coby as well and he's got the step back shot from the logo in. But Huerter, Patrick at times, Vuc, Collins and Smith ca knock down an open jumper. The easiest wins they got last year were when they get 27+ assists, maybe Coby dominating the scoring but nobody else really pouring in 25 or more. Those nights when Josh gets the 17 assists, and still scores 22, he's finding guys for the shots they make a good percentage of, not just giving up the ball and having somebody manufacture shots. The role he fills for the Bulls suits him because they don't have clear and consistent #2 and #3 scorers, different guys step up on different nights so Giddey has to do more than just hit the same guys each night, he's got to keep track of who's night it is and keep getting the hot hand the ball. That's when his assist numbers get big.

I think he's in a great situation with the Bulls to best use his skillset, he'll look like an improved player if a few guys like Ayo, Patrick and Okoro up their shooting percentages just a bit. I he recognizes where he's at with the Bulls and that he only needs others to make the slight improvements.

I agree with you.

Part of this is back to a holistic strategy of how you build a really great team. I don't care what role Josh plays on our mediocre team that is going to have a near complete roster make over in a year. I care about how he fits on a good team. If you value the Bulls winning 40 games next year (or even the next two years) then Josh Giddey is probably super important.

If you want to figure out how to get on a path to win 50+ games, then what role is Josh playing on that team and how well does he play it?

For me at 25M I don't care so much about the 2nd question at all, because we will be able to pivot off Josh. At 35M a year, Josh still answers the first question better than any option, but now the second question is a real problem most likely.

[dougthonus]

Disagree we couldn't get two scorers with Giddey on a four year/$30 mill AAV.

I wasn't looking at the salary cap angle.

It's super unlikely that two elite scorers are going to fall into our lap given we aren't pursuing asset based strategies to increase those odds. We don't really have super attractive trade packages, we aren't pursing a tanking strategy, we don't have a lot of extra draft picks. FA has no superstars available next year, and we probably won't be under the cap after that (and probably wouldn't be the #1 destination for a star if one was available anyway). Nor do we have a lot of meaningfully intriguing young talent with superstar upside.

Our best hope of having two players significantly better than Giddey would be internal development of Matas (which despite the hype is still reasonably unlikely I would say that he gets to true star level) or Noa (really, really unlikely at this point), or just get incredibly lucky with our draft picks and land a star in the mid 1st, or we end up with an elite pick by having injury problems or a miracle move up from the late lottery). To hit on two of those things when all of them are really unlikely is extremely unlikely.

I'm not sure we really have a meaningful long term plan, we got younger, seem still to be 'okay-ish', and will now play out the year then figure out how to reset with a bunch of UFAs, non-starter rotation players, Giddey, Matas, and Noa.

[Infinity2152]

Disagree we couldn't get two scorers with Giddey on a four year/$30 mill AAV.

I wasn't looking at the salary cap angle.

It's super unlikely that two elite scorers are going to fall into our lap given we aren't pursuing asset based strategies to increase those odds. We don't really have super attractive trade packages, we aren't pursing a tanking strategy, we don't have a lot of extra draft picks. FA has no superstars available next year, and we probably won't be under the cap after that (and probably wouldn't be the #1 destination for a star if one was available anyway). Nor do we have a lot of meaningfully intriguing young talent with superstar upside.

Our best hope of having two players significantly better than Giddey would be internal development of Matas (which despite the hype is still reasonably unlikely I would say that he gets to true star level) or Noa (really, really unlikely at this point), or just get incredibly lucky with our draft picks and land a star in the mid 1st, or we end up with an elite pick by having injury problems or a miracle move up from the late lottery). To hit on two of those things when all of them are really unlikely is extremely unlikely.

I'm not sure we really have a meaningful long term plan, we got younger, seem still to be 'okay-ish', and will now play out the year then figure out how to reset with a bunch of UFAs, non-starter rotation players, Giddey, Matas, and Noa.

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

[dougthonus]

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Certainly hope so. Not like I analyze Giddey based on my personal desires.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

Those guys don't get you star players either.

[Infinity2152]

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Certainly hope so. Not like I analyze Giddey based on my personal desires.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

Those guys don't get you star players either.

Who was the centerpiece player of the Kevin Durant trade again? Jalen green? Plus Dillon Brooks? He's not a star? Mikal bridges, Cam Johnson were the best players in the trade for more prime Durant.

Donovan Mitchell: Markannen, Collin Sexton
Kyrie Irving: Spencer Dinwiddie, Dorian Finney Smith
Gobert: Patrick Beverly, Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt best players traded
James Harden: Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, Andre Drummond
Wasn't Vucevic putting up like 24 and 12 with great shooting when we traded for him? All-Star? The best PLAYER we sent was Wendell Carter Jr.


So who do we need to combine TWO players to get a star? You seriously think a package with re-signed Giddey, re-signed Coby White couldn't get you a disgruntled star? We don't even need to use any picks or assets to acquire those guys, we just have to pay them.

[dougthonus]

Who was the centerpiece player of the Kevin Durant trade again? Jalen green? Plus Dillon Brooks? He's not a star? Mikal bridges, Cam Johnson were the best players in the trade for more prime Durant.

Donovan Mitchell: Markannen, Collin Sexton
Kyrie Irving: Spencer Dinwiddie, Dorian Finney Smith
Gobert: Patrick Beverly, Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt best players traded
James Harden: Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, Andre Drummond
Wasn't Vucevic putting up like 24 and 12 with great shooting when we traded for him? All-Star? The best PLAYER we sent was Wendell Carter Jr.


So who do we need to combine TWO players to get a star? You seriously think a package with re-signed Giddey, re-signed Coby White couldn't get you a disgruntled star? We don't even need to use any picks or assets to acquire those guys, we just have to pay them.

Sure, you can go all in and trade all your future unprotected picks along with your decent young prospects to get your 2nd star. It doesn't work for your first star. You need to get a certain amount of assets and a star first, we just aren't in that position. Beyond that, the players involved have to be viewed as non-negative salary. The Nets flipped Bridges and Johnson for even more picks.

Giddey on a good contract is way more useful in this scenario than Giddey on a bad contract, so even if you ignore the impracticality of getting to the situation where such a trade would make sense for us and that star would pick us, then hard balling Giddey to make his deal more attractive helps you complete said trade.

[Infinity2152]

Who was the centerpiece player of the Kevin Durant trade again? Jalen green? Plus Dillon Brooks? He's not a star? Mikal bridges, Cam Johnson were the best players in the trade for more prime Durant.

Donovan Mitchell: Markannen, Collin Sexton
Kyrie Irving: Spencer Dinwiddie, Dorian Finney Smith
Gobert: Patrick Beverly, Malik Beasley, Jarred Vanderbilt best players traded
James Harden: Ben Simmons, Seth Curry, Andre Drummond
Wasn't Vucevic putting up like 24 and 12 with great shooting when we traded for him? All-Star? The best PLAYER we sent was Wendell Carter Jr.


So who do we need to combine TWO players to get a star? You seriously think a package with re-signed Giddey, re-signed Coby White couldn't get you a disgruntled star? We don't even need to use any picks or assets to acquire those guys, we just have to pay them.

Sure, you can go all in and trade all your future unprotected picks along with your decent young prospects to get your 2nd star. It doesn't work for your first star. You need to get a certain amount of assets and a star first, we just aren't in that position. Beyond that, the players involved have to be viewed as non-negative salary. The Nets flipped Bridges and Johnson for even more picks.

Giddey on a good contract is way more useful in this scenario than Giddey on a bad contract, so even if you ignore the impracticality of getting to the situation where such a trade would make sense for us and that star would pick us, then hard balling Giddey to make his deal more attractive helps you complete said trade.

That presumes:
1st, you're able to get Giddey on a "good" contract. Does a 3yr/25 AAV contract look better than a 4yr $27 AAV contract if you trade him on two years and he's looking great? Or you have to re-sign him?

2nd. $27 mll AAV doesn't look like a GREAT contract if/when you decide to trade Giddey. If you still have control at that point, deal length is looking shorter and shorter.

Now you're adding in picks when we were talking about what players you need to have for a star trade. We have picks, if that matters. You're going to send picks anyway to get that FIRST star, how else are you planning to get him? We'd still have Matas and Noa, Tre Jones, Pat Will, Smith and a ton of cap. We have to start somewhere.

Having better players in the trade lessens the number of picks. Giddey and Coby's value far exceeds Dinwiddie, Beverly, Malik Beasley, Ben Simmons, Wendell Carter Jr, lmao!! At least imo. You said plaers like Jalen Green won't be get you a star player when he was literally the best piece in a star trade. Would expect any trade for a star to include picks, don't you?

[dougthonus]

That presumes:
1st, you're able to get Giddey on a "good" contract.
2nd. $30 mll AAV doesn't look like a GREAT contract if/when you decide to trade Giddey. If you still have control at that point, deal length is looking shorter and shorter.

Now you're adding in picks when we were talking about what players you need to have for a star trade. We have picks, if that matters. You're going to send picks anyway to get that FIRST star, how else are you planning to get him? We'd still have Matas and Noa, Tre Jones, Pat Will, Smith and a ton of cap. We have to start somewhere.

Having better players in the trade lessens the number of picks. Giddey and Coby's value far exceeds Dinwiddie, Beverly, Malik Beasley, Ben Simmons, Wendell Carter Jr, lmao!! At least imo. You said plaers like Jalen Green won't be get you a star player when he was literally the best piece in a star trade. Would expect any trade for a star to include picks, don't you?

It's a large number of things that come together to make such a trade work.

The combination of having enough assets to do it, having enough assets to be good after it's done, and being good enough that the star wants to come here all pull at each other in different opposite ways.

If you think it's all going to come together, more power to you, my view is there is almost no chance of that, but again, to the extent there is a chance, having Giddey on a better deal definitely helps you more.

[Infinity2152]

That presumes:
1st, you're able to get Giddey on a "good" contract.
2nd. $30 mll AAV doesn't look like a GREAT contract if/when you decide to trade Giddey. If you still have control at that point, deal length is looking shorter and shorter.

Now you're adding in picks when we were talking about what players you need to have for a star trade. We have picks, if that matters. You're going to send picks anyway to get that FIRST star, how else are you planning to get him? We'd still have Matas and Noa, Tre Jones, Pat Will, Smith and a ton of cap. We have to start somewhere.

Having better players in the trade lessens the number of picks. Giddey and Coby's value far exceeds Dinwiddie, Beverly, Malik Beasley, Ben Simmons, Wendell Carter Jr, lmao!! At least imo. You said plaers like Jalen Green won't be get you a star player when he was literally the best piece in a star trade. Would expect any trade for a star to include picks, don't you?

It's a large number of things that come together to make such a trade work.

The combination of having enough assets to do it, having enough assets to be good after it's done, and being good enough that the star wants to come here all pull at each other in different opposite ways.

If you think it's all going to come together, more power to you, my view is there is almost no chance of that, but again, to the extent there is a chance, having Giddey on a better deal definitely helps you more.

Again. What pieces do we have in the "large number of things" outside picks? What players would we currently send out in a star trade? Are any of those players likely worth more in trade value than Giddey at $27 mill? When and how do we start adding those pieces, if we keep letting them leave as free agents? How can we even get in the trade game without pieces? I'd trade Giddey or Coby or both for a legit star (maybe, depends on age and level). Don't see any other combination that even gets us started, not counting Matas. He could go for the right star too.

Of course a better deal helps you more. It's debatable a 3yr $22.5 mill, player option third year is better than say 5yr/$125 or $130. Not all about AAV, we have a ton of cap space. A few mill is the absolute least of the Bulls problems. Be nice to have Giddey locked in at a nice $27 mill in two years when we're looing to extend Matas, we've already paid Coby, and giddey's looking for $40 mill+ as a UFA, declining that third year option.

[dougthonus]

Again. What pieces do we have in the "large number of things" outside picks? What players would we currently send out in a star trade? Are any of those players likely worth more in trade value than Giddey at $27 mill? When and how do we start adding those pieces, if we keep letting them leave as free agents? How can we even get in the trade game without pieces? I'd trade Giddey or Coby or both for a legit star (maybe, depends on age and level). Don't see any other combination that even gets us started, not counting Matas. He could go for the right star too.

Of course a better deal helps you more. It's debatable a 3yr $22.5 mill, player option third year is better than say 5yr/$125 or $130. Not all about AAV, we have a ton of cap space. A few mill is the absolute least of the Bulls problems. Be nice to have Giddey locked in at a nice $27 mill in two years when we're looing to extend Matas, we've already paid Coby, and giddey's looking for $40 mill+ as a UFA, declining that third year option.

You seem to have lost the narrative, because in the original post, all I was saying is that it's incredibly unlikely (like less than 1%) the Bulls have Giddey and two players better than him while Giddey is under contract. If you think that's wrong more power to you.

However, on this topic if you think that:
1: We will have the best package for a star
2: Have enough left after that trade to be a legit contender
3: A star makes us their preferred destination

In the next 4 years, be my guest. I'd put the odds of this at well under 1% chance.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

Don't tell me you're comparing Giddey to Jokic and Doncic lol. I'm putting that limit on him: he's not going to be the best or second best or thirtieth best player in the NBA. Maybe he's a pretty good sixth man. He's a low efficiency, low volume scorer who will command more money than Pat. Devoting 15-20% of the cap to a bench player/below average starter strikes me as an unwise move. Keep in mind that 22-year-old Luka scored twice as many points on the same TS% with more assists, rebounds and with a lower turnover rate. Also Luka didn't go #1 because the Suns and Kings are very dumb. He was obviously the best player in that draft; that isn't hindsight. Jokic wasn't even a first rounder so the comparison isn't apt. There were lots of reasons to doubt him.

Sign and trade Giddey for expiring bad money and draft capital. Or any positive asset that won't need to be re-signed any time soon. Gotta stop re-signing these players. They're not good enough to get the Bulls over the hump, maybe good enough to compete for a play-in. Move on. Coby is my favorite player and I'd probably move on from him too.

BTW, maybe 'win shares' isn't the best stat, but Ayo and Giddey were both drafted in 2021 and have compiled roughly the same amount. Giddey is a better player than Ayo, but it would be **** insane to pay him four times more annually.

[Infinity2152]

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

Don't tell me you're comparing Giddey to Jokic and Doncic lol. I'm putting that limit on him: he's not going to be the best or second best or thirtieth best player in the NBA. Maybe he's a pretty good sixth man. He's a low efficiency, low volume scorer who will command more money than Pat. Devoting 15-20% of the cap to a bench player/below average starter strikes me as an unwise move. Keep in mind that 22-year-old Luka scored twice as many points on the same TS% with more assists, rebounds and with a lower turnover rate. Also Luka didn't go #1 because the Suns and Kings are very dumb. He was obviously the best player in that draft; that isn't hindsight. Jokic wasn't even a first rounder so the comparison isn't apt. There were lots of reasons to doubt him.

Sign and trade Giddey for expiring bad money and draft capital. Or any positive asset that won't need to be re-signed any time soon. Gotta stop re-signing these players. They're not good enough to get the Bulls over the hump, maybe good enough to compete for a play-in. Move on. Coby is my favorite player and I'd probably move on from him too.

BTW, maybe 'win shares' isn't the best stat, but Ayo and Giddey were both drafted in 2021 and have compiled roughly the same amount. Giddey is a better player than Ayo, but it would be **** insane to pay him four times more annually.

I literally said he doesn't have to be Luka. So saying I'm comparing him to Luka is what? Put whatever limit on him you want. That's your choice. It's a fantasy world, where we build a team with all hyper efficient, super cost effective players. The plan is always wait until that perfect player comes along in the draft. The comparison was about Luka and Jokic not being valued as much because of perceived lack of athleticism. It happens a lot. Pretend like it doesn't if you want. We traded Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas over athleticism. Luka and Jokic make more than double what Giddey is projected, will possibly make close to triple. Pretty ridiculous to say he needs to be anywhere close to their level to get half their money.

I really don't get you guys plan for building a team. Apparently the plan is let our free agents walk or expire, get cap space and stock picks. Who are we getting with that cap space?? Does everybody we sign from now until eternity have to be $10 mill or less or a perfect two way player? Dare you to post a list of the players currently in Giddey's projected range $22-$35 mill and tell me Giddey's not in the top 20% of players in that price range. You're talking about he's not a top 10-20 player when most of those guys are making $40 mill+ and are way older, lmao! How about compare him to the AVERAGE PLAYER his age, AVERAGE player getting a second contract, and the average pay for production for those players. Of course you're not going to do that.

Say the Jazz come up with a $30 mill offer. You think the Bulls should decline to match and go into the summer armed with Matas, essengue, Smith, Jones and a bunch of cap space? We're better off than going into next summer with Gidddey, Matas, Essengue, Smith, Jones and a bunch of cap space? Don't just hate, tell us how you're going to use that additional cap space to replace Giddey with a better PG next summer. Want to know what this upgrade is going to cost us.

You don't pick NBA players from a menu. It's a free market, other teams want all the perfect players too. It's hard to add high end talent. Way harder when you don't even keep your mid talent. You want to compare his contract to other Bulls contracts, use Lavine's or Pat Williams or Vucevic's, lol. It's insane to offer him $4 mill more than Pat. It's insane 22 year old Giddey isn't worth more than 32 year old Vucevic. Or Jalen Green. Or Anferenee Simons. Or pretty much most of these 5th year guys who are going to get more.

This will be Giddey's FIRST year as lead ballhandler. We saw what he did with half a season. Luka was lead scorer and lead playmaker. Giddey played with an MVP lead ballhandler. You really think Luka puts up those same numbers on that OKC team? Even though, since Luka makes double, he's a completely unfair comparison. Only compared the lack of athleticism. Want to say Luka's so much better, we should be talking about vs Giddey at Luka's contract. Might as well say Herb Jones isn't worth $20 mill because he's not Kawhi Leonard. Tra Young's not worth $30+ mill because Steph is way more efficient. Matter of fact that's even worse, cause Tra is max and he's not even close to Steph. Tatum and Brown are max, not close to Lebron or Giannis.

[jmajew]

This Bulls team after the Lavine trade was the most entertaining team we've had since the Rose years. The style of play was fast and fun. I'm willing to bet on this group growing and getting better over tanking because it was entertaining. Tanking will not be entertaining and probably won't work. Being mediocre with a boring style and no room for young guys to grow is the worst.

As long as we don't trade any of our first rd picks coming up I'm all for signing Giddey to 25 mil a year. You hope continued growth from Matas, hopefully Essengue grows, and keep using late lotto or late teen picks on high upside players. All you need is one to truly hit or a true Superstar ask to come here.

I know this philosophy a lot will say is not choosing a path. I think it is choosing a path. It is hard for a team to tank and then become great. The truly elite teams of the past 5-10 years either got the #1 pick and that guy was a true gamechanger or drafted in the 7-15 range and got a player that turned into a stud. True #1 game changers: LeBron & and I'm not sure who else. 7-15 Range: Shai (#11), Mitchell (#13), Curry (#7), Halliburton (#7), & Giannis (#15). My point is simply that this is a path and one that I fully endorse.

[SalmonsSuperfan]

My brother, I'm just having a toast to Giddey making a Bulliever out of you this year. Got nothing but optimism for all these young guys, the sky is the limit. There's a reason Luka and Jokic didn't go number 1. Physicals. Luka is FINALLY looking like the best shape of his career, lmao! Essengue has all the physicals, could end up mid or worse. So all the limits people keep putting on Giddey, I'm not going. Until I see him stop getting better, in my mind he's going to keep getting better. I just want him to be the best Giddey and keep on growing, doesn't have to be Luka. We have three shots at 1A, 2A guys, Matas, Giddey, Noa. MAAAAAAAAYBE Coby.

Small, smaller, smallest shots I know, but the chance is there, unlike with most of the league. I'm expecting a lot of our young guys to show out this season. Guys like Okoro, Huerter, Williams, Phillips are dark horses too.

Agree with the asset based strategy to get a 1A, which is why the reluctance to pay $20-$35 mill guys like Giddey, Kuminga, Anfernee Simons, Jalen Green puzzles me. Without pieces like that, what are we ever going to offer in that 1A trade? Expirings like Vucevic and Collins and a bunch of picks? Time's running out on that option. We need to add tier 2 players to get a 1A.

Don't tell me you're comparing Giddey to Jokic and Doncic lol. I'm putting that limit on him: he's not going to be the best or second best or thirtieth best player in the NBA. Maybe he's a pretty good sixth man. He's a low efficiency, low volume scorer who will command more money than Pat. Devoting 15-20% of the cap to a bench player/below average starter strikes me as an unwise move. Keep in mind that 22-year-old Luka scored twice as many points on the same TS% with more assists, rebounds and with a lower turnover rate. Also Luka didn't go #1 because the Suns and Kings are very dumb. He was obviously the best player in that draft; that isn't hindsight. Jokic wasn't even a first rounder so the comparison isn't apt. There were lots of reasons to doubt him.

Sign and trade Giddey for expiring bad money and draft capital. Or any positive asset that won't need to be re-signed any time soon. Gotta stop re-signing these players. They're not good enough to get the Bulls over the hump, maybe good enough to compete for a play-in. Move on. Coby is my favorite player and I'd probably move on from him too.

BTW, maybe 'win shares' isn't the best stat, but Ayo and Giddey were both drafted in 2021 and have compiled roughly the same amount. Giddey is a better player than Ayo, but it would be **** insane to pay him four times more annually.

I literally said he doesn't have to be Luka. So saying I'm comparing him to Luka is what? Put whatever limit on him you want. That's your choice. It's a fantasy world, where we build a team with all hyper efficient, super cost effective players. The plan is always wait until that perfect player comes along in the draft. The comparison was about Luka and Jokic not being valued as much because of perceived lack of athleticism. It happens a lot. Pretend like it doesn't if you want. We traded Aldridge for Tyrus Thomas over athleticism. Luka and Jokic make more than double what Giddey is projected, will possibly make close to triple. Pretty ridiculous to say he needs to be anywhere close to their level to get half their money.

I really don't get you guys plan for building a team. Apparently the plan is let our free agents walk or expire, get cap space and stock picks. Who are we getting with that cap space?? Does everybody we sign from now until eternity have to be $10 mill or less or a perfect two way player? Dare you to post a list of the players currently in Giddey's projected range $22-$35 mill and tell me Giddey's not in the top 20% of players in that price range. You're talking about he's not a top 10-20 player when most of those guys are making $40 mill+ and are way older, lmao! How about compare him to the AVERAGE PLAYER his age, AVERAGE player getting a second contract, and the average pay for production for those players. Of course you're not going to do that.

Say the Jazz come up with a $30 mill offer. You think the Bulls should decline to match and go into the summer armed with Matas, essengue, Smith, Jones and a bunch of cap space? We're better off than going into next summer with Gidddey, Matas, Essengue, Smith, Jones and a bunch of cap space? Don't just hate, tell us how you're going to use that additional cap space to replace Giddey with a better PG next summer. Want to know what this upgrade is going to cost us.

You don't pick NBA players from a menu. It's a free market, other teams want all the perfect players too. It's hard to add high end talent. Way harder when you don't even keep your mid talent. You want to compare his contract to other Bulls contracts, use Lavine's or Pat Williams or Vucevic's, lol. It's insane to offer him $4 mill more than Pat. It's insane 22 year old Giddey isn't worth more than 32 year old Vucevic. Or Jalen Green. Or Anferenee Simons. Or pretty much most of these 5th year guys who are going to get more.

oh crap, I wrote a response and then I accidentally hit the back button. Now I have to leave. I guess in summary, I pretty much disagree with everything you wrote lol but appreciate the thoughtfulness of it.
Need to build through the draft and with cost-effective, efficient contracts. Need to acquire superstar talent somehow, you don't really get that unless you tank or if the Mavericks hand you one for some reason. Can't double down on mistakes like re-signing Pat, re-signing Zack and now re-signing Giddey. He doesn't "walk" because he's restricted unless someone offers him crazy money...which some team might have already at this point if they were going to.

Coby and Ayo are, as far as I'm concerned, the only good contracts on the team. At this stage, Pat is really the only bad contract which is a good thing and puts us in a pretty good position to take on bad money in exchange for some proper assets. More opportunities to add a star through the draft. It's a crapshoot, makes NBA team-building not so fun to me, but increasing the probability of drafting a star seems to be the method if you can't add one in free agency or via trade. I might've been open-minded to taking a risk and trading for Zion. He's an actual star "talent" even if he hasn't or never will put it together. That ain't Giddey. It could be Matas, I hope. Not sure what to think about the new guy yet. Giddey does absolutely nothing for this team at this stage and is realistically an impediment. Helps win games but not enough to help the team make the playoffs.

I'm generally impressed by how the Heat have built their teams post-Heatles. We should try copying that alongside tanking for actual talent.

[Infinity2152]

This Bulls team after the Lavine trade was the most entertaining team we've had since the Rose years. The style of play was fast and fun. I'm willing to bet on this group growing and getting better over tanking because it was entertaining. Tanking will not be entertaining and probably won't work. Being mediocre with a boring style and no room for young guys to grow is the worst.

As long as we don't trade any of our first rd picks coming up I'm all for signing Giddey to 25 mil a year. You hope continued growth from Matas, hopefully Essengue grows, and keep using late lotto or late teen picks on high upside players. All you need is one to truly hit or a true Superstar ask to come here.

I know this philosophy a lot will say is not choosing a path. I think it is choosing a path. It is hard for a team to tank and then become great. The truly elite teams of the past 5-10 years either got the #1 pick and that guy was a true gamechanger or drafted in the 7-15 range and got a player that turned into a stud. True #1 game changers: LeBron & and I'm not sure who else. 7-15 Range: Shai (#11), Mitchell (#13), Curry (#7), Halliburton (#7), & Giannis (#15). My point is simply that this is a path and one that I fully endorse.

Thank you!! We have one rookie contract who looks great and another lottery rookie already. We have a 22 year old lead guard we can lock up for years for way less than max. Young Tre Jones on a value contract. Okoro, young player, solid contract. Smith, solid young player, good contract.

That's 5 players not counting Giddey that are young, cheap and we'd expect to play major minutes the next two years. Plus we'll draft a rookie. 6 players we'd expect to play major minutes for like $50-$60 mill total. Add Giddey's $25 mill, we're at $75-$85 mill for 7 players, at least 3 of them probably starters. Everybody else is expiring except Pat's little $18 mill people are punishing Giddey for.

Because if you erase Pat's contract, the Bulls go into next summer with a RIDICULOUS amount of cap space, as it stands. Add Giddey at $25 mill, it's still a ridiculous amount.

They look young, exciting and moving in a direction. Maybe that makes players want to join. We could be adding 6-10 new players next year.

[drosestruts]

I think Josh Giddey's strengths are often downplayed almost similar to someone like Joakim Noah.

Giddey is not Kyrie Irving, he doesn't have amazing handles and the ability to break down players 1 on 1 - which is what we tend to thing of when thinking of all star type guards (Lilland, Mitchell, Brunson, etc. etc.)

But Giddey's motor is a skill, much like motor was a skill for Noah. Giddey is relentless, whether off grabbing a defensive rebounding or going quick off a made basket.

There's lots of focus on Giddey's increased 3P% after the all-star break, but his % of attempts from 3-point range actually went down 8 percentage points and we saw his 2P FGA increase 8 percentage points. The biggest change however was in his % of points from free throws went from 14% to 22%. His unassisted 2P-FGM also increased 11 percentage points.

Giddey was in attack mode, and he was doing so at a pace that other teams couldn't keep up with which results in more buckets at the rim, and way more Free Throw attempts.

This is a skill, and one Giddey excels at.

Many people will say - well what happens when you get to the post-season and things slow down? To that question I'll point to the Indiana Pacers who also play an up-tempo style and continued to do so throughout the playoffs, which led to several 4th quarter comeback wins where it seemed like the opposing team was simply running out of gas from trying to keep up with them all night.

Beyond Giddey - this is going to be an advantage for the Bulls overall with players like Ayo, Tre Jones, and Essengue (go look at some of his combine results related to speed).

We are going to run teams into the ground.

[pipfan]

This Bulls team after the Lavine trade was the most entertaining team we've had since the Rose years. The style of play was fast and fun. I'm willing to bet on this group growing and getting better over tanking because it was entertaining. Tanking will not be entertaining and probably won't work. Being mediocre with a boring style and no room for young guys to grow is the worst.

As long as we don't trade any of our first rd picks coming up I'm all for signing Giddey to 25 mil a year. You hope continued growth from Matas, hopefully Essengue grows, and keep using late lotto or late teen picks on high upside players. All you need is one to truly hit or a true Superstar ask to come here.

I know this philosophy a lot will say is not choosing a path. I think it is choosing a path. It is hard for a team to tank and then become great. The truly elite teams of the past 5-10 years either got the #1 pick and that guy was a true gamechanger or drafted in the 7-15 range and got a player that turned into a stud. True #1 game changers: LeBron & and I'm not sure who else. 7-15 Range: Shai (#11), Mitchell (#13), Curry (#7), Halliburton (#7), & Giannis (#15). My point is simply that this is a path and one that I fully endorse.

Thank you!! We have one rookie contract who looks great and another lottery rookie already. We have a 22 year old lead guard we can lock up for years for way less than max. Young Tre Jones on a value contract. Okoro, young player, solid contract. Smith, solid young player, good contract.

That's 5 players not counting Giddey that are young, cheap and we'd expect to play major minutes the next two years. Plus we'll draft a rookie. 6 players we'd expect to play major minutes for like $50-$60 mill total. Add Giddey's $25 mill, we're at $75-$85 mill for 7 players, at least 3 of them probably starters. Everybody else is expiring except Pat's little $18 mill people are punishing Giddey for.

Because if you erase Pat's contract, the Bulls go into next summer with a RIDICULOUS amount of cap space, as it stands. Add Giddey at $25 mill, it's still a ridiculous amount.

They look young, exciting and moving in a direction. Maybe that makes players want to join. We could be adding 6-10 new players next year.

I agree-we're young and superdeep. Let's get Giddey long term for $25 million and see what happens this year.
With all our picks, the Port pick, tons of expiring contracts and an interesting rookie in Noa we're in a good spot for a big trade.