2024-25 NBA Season Discussion

[Outside]

Regarding Kuminga and Wiseman, once the league started catching up to the Warriors, criticism of their roster focused on their lack of athleticism and size.

Bogut, West, and Pachulia were gone, and some other top teams had death-type lineups that were taller, longer, and more athletic than the Warriors. Plus, when they acquired Durant, they basically went from Strength in Numbers to a very top-heavy roster that lacked the quality depth that they'd had up to that point. They were able to turn DeAngelo Russell into Andrew Wiggins, which helped, but an injured and diminished Klay canceled that out. They needed size, and they needed athleticism. So I can see rolling the dice on Wiseman, and while the allure of such an athletic big made sense, the lack of BBIQ turned Wiseman into a pumpkin. Without Wiseman, they had the serviceable and BBIQ-rich, athleticism-poor Looney and Draymond, plus whatever filler floated through each year. Post looks like he'll be a decent stretch 5, but he's overmatched against any top center. Horford is stopgap at best. They still need at least one and maybe two quality bigs.

Kuminga and Moody were both lottery picks. Moody looks like a serviceable wing, and though he had a poor 2025 PS, he's a rotation player and has accepted that role and seems content to stay with Golden State. Kuminga came with more hype due to his athleticism, and he has looked good for stretches, but he seems to be all-in on the hype and less so for working on his weaknesses -- ballhandling, shooting form, and team defense. Instead of recognizing that those weaknesses were responsible for him losing minutes and periodically dropping out of the rotation, he blames Kerr from giving him what he thinks is due to him, which is a featured role. It's a shame, because I believe if he worked at addressing his shortcomings, he would have a great opportunity to be the secondary scorer behind Curry (Jimmy underperforms in the RS and misses a lot of games) and a key part of a really good defense. Fixing his outside shot is most important, especially on GS, where Draymond and Jimmy don't draw defensive attention at the three-point line and Kuminga's drives are stymied too often because defenses can pack the paint.

But, alas, Kuminga and his agent are pointing fingers elsewhere instead of looking in the mirror. He comes across as entitled for something he hasn't earned. Now he wants the Warriors to sign and trade him for spare parts, which is totally unreasonable considering the current market.

What hurts most is that GS is in the same boat they were five or six years ago -- needing size at center and athleticism on the wings, and I suppose we should add BBIQ to anyone who potentially meets that criteria. I'm thrilled they got the title in 2022, but I'm afraid they're squandering the end of Curry's career. It's also profoundly disappointing that Kuminga has apparently squandered his opportunity to meet one of those needs and be part of a legitimately contending team.

Wiseman was a swing and a miss. He was never going to work out. He played one game for Indiana last season and tore his Achilles. He is under contract to the Pacers this season, but it wouldn't surprise me if he's out of the league after that.

Kuminga may still work out. Maybe a change of scenery will do him good.

As for the Lacobs role in drafting, I don't know if it's true but it's been prominently reported that they liked Wiseman and Kuminga. It helps to be the boss (or the boss's son) when it comes to getting what you want.

[parsnips33]

Regarding Kuminga and Wiseman, once the league started catching up to the Warriors, criticism of their roster focused on their lack of athleticism and size. .

When exactly did this happen? 2019 you have Klay/KD injuries, 2020 you have Steph/Klay - I don't think that has anything to do with the league catching up. 2021 they go on a ridiculous run after losing the size/athleticism guy in Wiseman. 2022 we know what happened, and it happened in spite of the size/athleticism of Wiseman/Kuminga not because of it.

I never understood the Warriors lack of traditional size to be a misstep, rather it was shrewdly taking advantage of Draymond (and Iggy/KD/Wiggins) ability to play down a position and up the speed/dynamism without losing much ground on defense. I feel like this line of criticism comes from a real misunderstanding of the Steph/Draymond combination, or an (I think misbegotten) belief that the Kerr offense is some kind of gimmick that's been solved

[Verticality]

It's just drama, right? And we just want basketball. Kuminga, presumably, is doing what he's doing because he doesn't want to be in Golden State anymore, and they're dicking him around because they want control over their asset and don't want to be left with nothing. And he seems to just want to leave.

A bit stunning none of these high lottery picks worked. They built their greatness on homegrown players but maybe that was just great luck

While it was luck before in a lot of ways, when I look at the failure of the Warriors to make good use of their 2020s lottery picks, the through line seems obnoxiously clear:

Choosing superficial physical talent over BBIQ for a coaching scheme that really depends on BBIQ.

I’ll be forever curious what each guy in the war room thought at the time, and I don’t want to let the employees off the hook, but I do wonder the effect that Lacob and son had on the process. I don’t think Lacob forced these picks, but he clearly fell in love with what their physical talent seemed to imply at some point, and such things aren’t typically acquired tastes. Entirely possible that his employees felt pressure to pick the guys that the boss was excited about.

Again, they don’t get to use that as an excuse, but the disconnect between the players they picked and the way Kerr likes to have the team play is pretty jarring, and so it kinda screams that the coach wasn’t the most listened to voice in the room.

Of course it’s possible that Kerr himself just had no idea that these guys would have major BBIQ issues in scheme, in which case he deserves significant blame too, but I think generally if a coach gets the franchise to draft “his kind of guys”, he’ll be enthusiastic to play them, which is certainly not what we’ve seen with Kuminga.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find this interesting. Do you have thinking on who the Warriors draft for better outcomes these years? I am happy we denied them Tyrese but I do not remember him to be thought of as a supreme prospect.

[RCM88x]

Lamelo always seemed like such an obvious fit with the Warriors to me and was right there for the taking. For all the valid criticism of Lamelo's career thus far, I think almost all of it would be corrected if he was drafted into a better situation like GS would have been.

Taking Wiseman was always such a strange move to me, reeked of a Front Office who was high on their own supply, thinking they could do no wrong and going for the high risk project big man of the future rather than the supremely skilled guard who would fit right into their existing system. Maybe they already felt like Poole was that guy of the future at the guard spot, and to their credit for a moment that looked like it would be the case. But still, the idea of not taking a superior prospect because you might have a guy already at the same position is poor management.

Better yet would have been to trade the pick for something that would have helped them win in the present, literally any rotation level player would have been better.

[tsherkin]

Lamelo always seemed like such an obvious fit with the Warriors to me and was right there for the taking. For all the valid criticism of Lamelo's career thus far, I think almost all of it would be corrected if he was drafted into a better situation like GS would have been.

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

[Peregrine01]

Lamelo always seemed like such an obvious fit with the Warriors to me and was right there for the taking. For all the valid criticism of Lamelo's career thus far, I think almost all of it would be corrected if he was drafted into a better situation like GS would have been.

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

As an aside, I find it strange that GMs still overlook motor when evaluating physical talent. Guys who are ridiculously high energy and can sustain that for long stretches somehow always have an imprint on the game compared to guys who have sudden bursts of extreme athleticism but otherwise float around throughout the game. Rodman is an example of the former and Wiseman the latter.

[tsherkin]

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

Sure, but the point of it is that they have playmakers in Steph, Draymond and Butler. They don't actually have a need, or desire, to arrange their O around a unipolar ball-handler who has limited value without the ball in his hands. It's a poor fit.

No doubt, LaMelo would look better in a situation with more offensive talent around him. I don't mean to undercut that too much. He can clearly shoot the 3 and his playmaking is a bit undersold due to his general lack of availability. But his style is the antithesis of how Golden State's offense runs, so it's just not a sound match.

[parsnips33]

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

Sure, but the point of it is that they have playmakers in Steph, Draymond and Butler. They don't actually have a need, or desire, to arrange their O around a unipolar ball-handler who has limited value without the ball in his hands. It's a poor fit.

No doubt, LaMelo would look better in a situation with more offensive talent around him. I don't mean to undercut that too much. He can clearly shoot the 3 and his playmaking is a bit undersold due to his general lack of availability. But his style is the antithesis of how Golden State's offense runs, so it's just not a sound match.

Granted this would have been long before Butler was on the team. I think if he would have been willing to buy in, he could have fit well into the Warriors system. Far from a given of course, and it's all hypothetical at this point. Almost any pick would have been better than Wiseman in hindsight

Personally, I really wanted Obi Toppin

[tsherkin]

Granted this would have been long before Butler was on the team. I think if he would have been willing to buy in, he could have fit well into the Warriors system. Far from a given of course, and it's all hypothetical at this point. Almost any pick would have been better than Wiseman in hindsight

I maintain he'd have been a bad fit and would have been counter to their basic purpose in how they function post Mark Jackson.

As far as the picks, I wasn't really discussing that, but yes, Wiseman didn't make a lot of sense and Obi Toppin has been doing great in his role for the Pacers. He keeps it simple but he hustles hard. That's everything you want from a bench guy.

The Warriors suffered from not enough shooting (irony) and not enough health, as much as anything. And then they ran into the Wolves and didn't have Steph after the first quarter, basically, with predictable results. We'll see what they look like this year with a semi-full year of Steph and Jimmy, but they definitely also need any sort of frontcourt presence that isn't Draymond technically functioning as the 4, you know what I mean? Guard play, and perimeter play in general, is much less their issue.

[Doctor MJ]

A bit stunning none of these high lottery picks worked. They built their greatness on homegrown players but maybe that was just great luck

While it was luck before in a lot of ways, when I look at the failure of the Warriors to make good use of their 2020s lottery picks, the through line seems obnoxiously clear:

Choosing superficial physical talent over BBIQ for a coaching scheme that really depends on BBIQ.

I’ll be forever curious what each guy in the war room thought at the time, and I don’t want to let the employees off the hook, but I do wonder the effect that Lacob and son had on the process. I don’t think Lacob forced these picks, but he clearly fell in love with what their physical talent seemed to imply at some point, and such things aren’t typically acquired tastes. Entirely possible that his employees felt pressure to pick the guys that the boss was excited about.

Again, they don’t get to use that as an excuse, but the disconnect between the players they picked and the way Kerr likes to have the team play is pretty jarring, and so it kinda screams that the coach wasn’t the most listened to voice in the room.

Of course it’s possible that Kerr himself just had no idea that these guys would have major BBIQ issues in scheme, in which case he deserves significant blame too, but I think generally if a coach gets the franchise to draft “his kind of guys”, he’ll be enthusiastic to play them, which is certainly not what we’ve seen with Kuminga.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I find this interesting. Do you have thinking on who the Warriors draft for better outcomes these years? I am happy we denied them Tyrese but I do not remember him to be thought of as a supreme prospect.

Oh you're not wrong. Drafting Hali at #2 would have been seen as a big reach, but we can see in retrospect how little that consensus "big board" meant particularly in 2020. If all the scouts are debating whether a guy should be the #1 pick, but really he fundamentally lacks the ability to play basketball in the NBA, then being afraid to cut against the grain can doom you to waste your best opportunity.

Of course pragmatically this is part of the broader question of drafting for talent or fit. For top draft picks, teams overwhelming go with (perceived) talent, and if you can be absolutely sure that talent is real, I get it. In reality, Wiseman wasn't much of a basketball talent, just a very large human being, and so it would have been far better to go with "fit" there, because inevitably, a player who was a good fit would also have been more talented than Wiseman.

Now, I should also be clear that if you were looking for high BBIQ among the guys getting buzz as potential talents, LaMelo Ball was the clear choice... and yet there were major concerns about Melo at the time that haven't exactly proven to be unworthy of concern. The next time Melo leads a truly elite basketball team relative to their competition will be the first time since high school, and he has horrendous habits that he would have had to been willing to un-learn to function with a truly profession context like the Warriors. Still a million times better than Wiseman, but Melo might have flamed out too, and so the only guys I'm sure would have been hugely helpful for the Warriors are the guys like Hali or Bane who weren't perceived as top level prospects... but were pretty obviously high BBIQ guys who could fit in.

Thus a different mindset from the Warrior FO would have basically guaranteed getting something useful out of the pick, but at the time what they were putting out there was a hope to draft their next Steph-level superstar to replace Steph, rather than recognizing they'll probably never have anyone as good as Steph before all the leadership involved is dead, and so the thing to do is to build around the true outlier you already have.

[Doctor MJ]

Lamelo always seemed like such an obvious fit with the Warriors to me and was right there for the taking. For all the valid criticism of Lamelo's career thus far, I think almost all of it would be corrected if he was drafted into a better situation like GS would have been.

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

As an aside, I find it strange that GMs still overlook motor when evaluating physical talent. Guys who are ridiculously high energy and can sustain that for long stretches somehow always have an imprint on the game compared to guys who have sudden bursts of extreme athleticism but otherwise float around throughout the game. Rodman is an example of the former and Wiseman the latter.

Love this, and it's something everyone should look at, but we should also keep in mind that motor without BBIQ can actually be a bad thing. "Just do something!" sounds pretty basic, but many NBA players really shouldn't be improvising that much on the court because in doing so they're breaking the coach's scheme, and the coach is way smarter than they are.

Still, it's an attribute everyone should be scouting hard. See a guy who can't stop fidgeting when he's "resting"? He may well have ADHD, which may well be a really good thing in this context.

[parsnips33]

Granted this would have been long before Butler was on the team. I think if he would have been willing to buy in, he could have fit well into the Warriors system. Far from a given of course, and it's all hypothetical at this point. Almost any pick would have been better than Wiseman in hindsight

I maintain he'd have been a bad fit and would have been counter to their basic purpose in how they function post Mark Jackson.

As far as the picks, I wasn't really discussing that, but yes, Wiseman didn't make a lot of sense and Obi Toppin has been doing great in his role for the Pacers. He keeps it simple but he hustles hard. That's everything you want from a bench guy.

The Warriors suffered from not enough shooting (irony) and not enough health, as much as anything. And then they ran into the Wolves and didn't have Steph after the first quarter, basically, with predictable results. We'll see what they look like this year with a semi-full year of Steph and Jimmy, but they definitely also need any sort of frontcourt presence that isn't Draymond technically functioning as the 4, you know what I mean? Guard play, and perimeter play in general, is much less their issue.

I really think they are missing a shooting 4 in the mold of an Otto Porter (yes shooting, no health lol). Horford a little long in the tooth at this point, but I'm hopeful that his (eventual) addition will help.

I think what they really missed against LA in '23 was reliable secondary playmaking. Poole was not the player he had been a year before, and the Lakers D could just load up excessively on Steph without paying any real consequences. Some of that is shooting, but some of it is just the ability to attack a compromised defense off the dribble. Part of why I'm relatively high on Podziemski if he can continue to make improvements

[tsherkin]

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

As an aside, I find it strange that GMs still overlook motor when evaluating physical talent. Guys who are ridiculously high energy and can sustain that for long stretches somehow always have an imprint on the game compared to guys who have sudden bursts of extreme athleticism but otherwise float around throughout the game. Rodman is an example of the former and Wiseman the latter.

Love this, and it's something everyone should look at, but we should also keep in mind that motor without BBIQ can actually be a bad thing. "Just do something!" sounds pretty basic, but many NBA players really shouldn't be improvising that much on the court because in doing so they're breaking the coach's scheme, and the coach is way smarter than they are.

Still, it's an attribute everyone should be scouting hard. See a guy who can't stop fidgeting when he's "resting"? He may well have ADHD, which may well be a really good thing in this context.

Motor is a useful tool. Some guys get by on pure effort and relentless activity, within some basic parameters, for sure.

[Peregrine01]

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

As an aside, I find it strange that GMs still overlook motor when evaluating physical talent. Guys who are ridiculously high energy and can sustain that for long stretches somehow always have an imprint on the game compared to guys who have sudden bursts of extreme athleticism but otherwise float around throughout the game. Rodman is an example of the former and Wiseman the latter.

Love this, and it's something everyone should look at, but we should also keep in mind that motor without BBIQ can actually be a bad thing. "Just do something!" sounds pretty basic, but many NBA players really shouldn't be improvising that much on the court because in doing so they're breaking the coach's scheme, and the coach is way smarter than they are.

Still, it's an attribute everyone should be scouting hard. See a guy who can't stop fidgeting when he's "resting"? He may well have ADHD, which may well be a really good thing in this context.

I think there's a good chance that MJ, Rodman, Steph and Westbrook all have or had ADHD to some degree. I remember reading a snippet about how young MJ could never sit still and always had to be playing some sport or gambling and those Dream Team stories about how he never slept are legendary. Rodman sat on the floor when he was on the bench cause he could never stop moving. Steph is as jittery as they come and reportedly always kills it on reactionary tests. And Westbrook is well, Westbrook. Those guys all have preternatural motor.

[RCM88x]

Lamelo always seemed like such an obvious fit with the Warriors to me and was right there for the taking. For all the valid criticism of Lamelo's career thus far, I think almost all of it would be corrected if he was drafted into a better situation like GS would have been.

He seems the opposite of what they need to me. Too helio. Too injured. Not actually a high-end scorer. Not a boost on D. They don't need his playmaking, which is his strongest trait.

Nothing about him really helps with their issues.

Wiseman was all those same things without any strong traits though. Entirely helio with no ability off ball, or moving the ball. No signs shown of being a high-end scorer in the NBA. No evidence of potential on Defense outside of size and athleticism.

Now granted, the 2020 draft was a bigger shot in the dark than many in the past due to a variety of reasons. But even so, the player we saw glimpses of in Memphis and in highschool was the anthesis's of Warriors basketball. Lamelo despite being helio clearly had elite playmaking chops and brought a lot of skill to the table that Wiseman was entirely lacking in. Just seemed like a guy they could have slotted in right away and had success with while Wiseman almost from day 1 of the season it was obvious he had no play within that franchise.

[parsnips33]

Sometimes you draft James Wiseman at #2, sometimes you draft the Dutch Dirk Nowitzki at #52

It all evens out in the end

[Doctor MJ]

The appeal with the LaMelo/Dubs idea is that both thrive on playing with frenetic energy and creating chaos. LaMelo often looks like he's playing a pickup game but he's doing that on an obvious lottery team with no direction...I think that'd be different if he was running point with GSW.

As an aside, I find it strange that GMs still overlook motor when evaluating physical talent. Guys who are ridiculously high energy and can sustain that for long stretches somehow always have an imprint on the game compared to guys who have sudden bursts of extreme athleticism but otherwise float around throughout the game. Rodman is an example of the former and Wiseman the latter.

Love this, and it's something everyone should look at, but we should also keep in mind that motor without BBIQ can actually be a bad thing. "Just do something!" sounds pretty basic, but many NBA players really shouldn't be improvising that much on the court because in doing so they're breaking the coach's scheme, and the coach is way smarter than they are.

Still, it's an attribute everyone should be scouting hard. See a guy who can't stop fidgeting when he's "resting"? He may well have ADHD, which may well be a really good thing in this context.

I think there's a good chance that MJ, Rodman, Steph and Westbrook all have or had ADHD to some degree. I remember reading a snippet about how young MJ could never sit still and always had to be playing some sport or gambling and those Dream Team stories about how he never slept are legendary. Rodman sat on the floor when he was on the bench cause he could never stop moving. Steph is as jittery as they come and reportedly always kills it on reactionary tests. And Westbrook is well, Westbrook. Those guys all have preternatural motor.

Yup, and Nash is the same btw. In school, aside from athletics, he was known as a gifted academic learner who was bored in class, itching to get out there and doing something physical.

[tsherkin]

I think there's a good chance that MJ, Rodman, Steph and Westbrook all have or had ADHD to some degree. I remember reading a snippet about how young MJ could never sit still and always had to be playing some sport or gambling and those Dream Team stories about how he never slept are legendary. Rodman sat on the floor when he was on the bench cause he could never stop moving. Steph is as jittery as they come and reportedly always kills it on reactionary tests. And Westbrook is well, Westbrook. Those guys all have preternatural motor.

Energy and ADHD are not the same thing. And MJ's intense focus for even menial tasks related to competition seems at odds with that as a diagnosis. That isn't generally the way hyperfixation functions in ADHD.

[Peregrine01]

I think there's a good chance that MJ, Rodman, Steph and Westbrook all have or had ADHD to some degree. I remember reading a snippet about how young MJ could never sit still and always had to be playing some sport or gambling and those Dream Team stories about how he never slept are legendary. Rodman sat on the floor when he was on the bench cause he could never stop moving. Steph is as jittery as they come and reportedly always kills it on reactionary tests. And Westbrook is well, Westbrook. Those guys all have preternatural motor.

Energy and ADHD are not the same thing. And MJ's intense focus for even menial tasks related to competition seems at odds with that as a diagnosis. That isn't generally the way hyperfixation functions in ADHD.

I don't think MJ was as focused on the details as say Kobe was. I think that's been played up by the press. I absolutely think that the guy was obsessive about fine tuning his skills. Perhaps ADHD is the wrong way to put it though I'm interested to see if there's any scientific studies to see if there's any correlation there.

[tsherkin]

I don't think MJ was as focused on the details as say Kobe was. I think that's been played up by the press. I absolutely think that the guy was obsessive about fine tuning his skills. Perhaps ADHD is the wrong way to put it though I'm interested to see if there's any scientific studies to see if there's any correlation there.

It might not have been in minutiae, but he certainly had no trouble with arduous, lengthy practices or workouts, which is to what I was referring. He was obsessive, and that overrode anything else, but I don't look at him and see ADHD so much as I see pathological competition with a high motor. I think it's sort of The Thing To Say these days, talking about ADHD, but his personality doesn't really exude executive dysfunction, he doesn't seem to show much in the way of corollary anxiety or any of the other frequent co-morbidities with ADHD, etc, etc, etc.

But studying his psychology would be very interesting, because he was definitely not a plain dude, for sure.