Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[cpower]

cant wait to see this guy getting benched and be out of the league in 2 years

Imagine if this comes to pass how much time was wasted talking about this dude over the past few years.

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

[vvoland]

To play well he has to completely change his game. That seems to be the entire crux of the problem imo.

Im not so sure. He needs better shot selection, an improved 3pt shot, and more faith from his coaching staff to play through mistakes. All three things can happen right around year 4/5. Not saying it will BUT we've seen JK excel in one specific role for long stretches (bench scorer getting 25+ mins) and the ideal role for like 5 games before his first serious injury (off-ball scorer, more Marion than tmac)

You literally just described how he would have to completely change his game.

What I "literally" described were two roles he has already played here. Whether he can continue doing so, or if he's even asked to do either, remains to be seen.

[vvoland]

cant wait to see this guy getting benched and be out of the league in 2 years

Imagine if this comes to pass how much time was wasted talking about this dude over the past few years.

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

[EvanZ]

Imagine if this comes to pass how much time was wasted talking about this dude over the past few years.

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

[vvoland]

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

I think he's not as good as I hoped he would be but is much better than many on this board think. The vicious cycle of internet anonymity and no offseason news have led to some outlandish stuff being thrown his way and I find myself to be one of the few willing to address it. Stuff much worse than "he'll be out of the league in 2 years" and that statement is crazy enough, on it's own. The anthony bennet comp is also laughable.

In short, JK is really flawed and I hope, for his sake (and the team's) that many of them are issues of confidence and feel - both of which have/can/should improve with more court time and, most importantly, faith from his coaches and teammates. He's earned the latter, at times, and has lost it, loudly, at others.

The reason I keep holding out hope is because he has some of the non-negotiables (Vicieni phrase I'm stealing here) in the new NBA that this team sorely lacks: size, athleticism, size + athleticism, rim finishing, efficient scoring (except last year, fair), on-ball defense, and a few more. Clearly, he also lacks a number of non-negotiables like shooting, shot selection, decision-making, etc. I just don't think you can teach the former while many young players struggle with the latter and improve, over time.

Oh, and he actually played really well when sharing the court with Steph and Dray last year (especially with a shooter or two around) and seems like a natural 6th man coming in for JB with Post, Buddy, Moody, Podz, etc providing space on the second unit, when he does anchor that group's scoring. It didn't work great when he came back from injury but I hope we get to see it to start the year. He had never played with Post or JB prior to coming back so if they get a real training camp/off-season with it, there may be real hope, yet. I have no such optimism about any of the rumored players coming back via trade.

I also like JK as a person more than a player and root for him much more than i have a few other warriors (dray, jp3 in his later years, and to a much, much, much worse extent, lamb). He seems like a great kid, hyper competitive, and represents more than just himself. He's done it well, just to my taste, of course, and I tend to root for those guys more than I do someone like the 3 folks I mentioned.

[Twinkie defense]

we've seen JK excel in one specific role for long stretches (bench scorer getting 25+ mins)

Is that winning basketball though? It is definitely antithetical to the Warriors motion / ball movement offense that has served them so well.

[vvoland]

we've seen JK excel in one specific role for long stretches (bench scorer getting 25+ mins)

Is that winning basketball though? It is definitely antithetical to the Warriors motion / ball movement offense that has served them so well.

When playing with Steph and Dray, last season, yes it was def winning basketball.

Wanting our 2nd unit (without JB, that's the only sample size w/ JK as the bench scorer) to play winning basketball would be a tough ask. I just want them to not get destroyed in the non-steph minutes. TBD on that part now that we have jimmy.

[whatisacenter]

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

JK is my second favorite player behind Curry.

Now that Loon is gone I really only enjoy Post and Moody outside of those two players.

I think JK will thrive in another system, on another roster and with a different coach.

[EvanZ]

The fact that the Warriors are so out on Kuminga honestly says a lot to me. It's naive to think at this point after 4 years that there's really any chance suddenly in year 5 Kuminga will decide they're right, or the Warriors will decide they're wrong.

It's really far past the Einstein definition of insanity imo. We've seen it. It ain't changing. It's a fool's errand to keep thinking it could happen if we just wait a little bit longer.

[vvoland]

The fact that the Warriors are so out on Kuminga honestly says a lot to me. It's naive to think at this point after 4 years that there's really any chance suddenly in year 5 Kuminga will decide they're right, or the Warriors will decide they're wrong.

It's really far past the Einstein definition of insanity imo. We've seen it. It ain't changing. It's a fool's errand to keep thinking it could happen if we just wait a little bit longer.

In other words, you've never seen JK play well for this team? I don't mean this iteration of the team, he only had like 15 games with this roster. I mean, in the prior 4 years, you don't think he's shown anything?

I don't think the dubs are "so out" on the JK. Kerr isn't a huge fan, clearly. According the the +/- guys, so is a faction of the FO and coaching staff. No argument there. That said, he's still getting ~20 mins per game for 4 years and i don't think it's all due to a lack of options. Personally, i think there's a big difference between ~20mpg and 25+ (not just the mathematical 5+ mins) and i think there's enough blame to go around. Starting with JK, to be sure, but, for me, it doesn't end there. For most, including those that hate Kerr's personnel decisions in, virtually, all other scenarios, it starts and ends w/ JK.

For some significant stretches of his career, Kerr/Org had enough faith to
a. start him in multiple playoff games as a rookie
b. fill in for wigs for 30+ games as we were racing to get out of the play in (and he was a big part of why we did)
c. award him the starting job out of camp (and he looked pretty good last preseason before starting terrrribly)
d. dray gave up his starting spot to jk mid year

Now, because he is young AND flawed AND not a natural fit, he has lost all of those roles, and more. But he did get them. That ALSO happened.

The contract stuff is whatever. They tried to get steph on a discount after '22, forced dray, klay, and iggy to get offers elsewhere before backpedaling. I don't think they're particularly good at the contract stuff, tbh. I can't remember the last guy they signed early in the summer (JP3 was post punch, dray and iggy were late, now JK, etc.).

[Larry Ellison]

i know Anthony Bennett would be proud

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

Not the current version. With his athleticism and ability to get to the rim, he could learn a lot from how Jimmy Butler plays the game. Improve his defense. Better passing off his dribble penetration. More efficient midrange. Can we put Jimmy brain in JK body?

[vvoland]

If either of you would like to make a bet on JK still being in the league at the end of the 26-27 season (barring catastrophic injury), I will happily take it.

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

Not the current version. With his athleticism and ability to get to the rim, he could learn a lot from how Jimmy Butler plays the game. Improve his defense. Better passing off his dribble penetration. More efficient midrange. Can we put Jimmy brain in JK body?

At 22 Jimmy was not this. No one is. JB was a rookie getting 8 mins a game. AirP can provide more context on his development and what he did in the 4 years prior. If JK stays here another 2 years and JB is healthy, we could see some massive improvement.

There is some encouraging lineup data for JK, albeit in a tiny sample, in last year's playoffs playing next to JB. For example, JK/JB/GP2 were a +25 net rating, with a Drtg of 80 but in only 53 possessions. The problem is, that's like half a game but since JK had a TOTAL of 371 possessions through the 12 playoff games there's isn't going to be any 3 man lineup with a much bigger sample than 53.

[EvanZ]

The fact that the Warriors are so out on Kuminga honestly says a lot to me. It's naive to think at this point after 4 years that there's really any chance suddenly in year 5 Kuminga will decide they're right, or the Warriors will decide they're wrong.

It's really far past the Einstein definition of insanity imo. We've seen it. It ain't changing. It's a fool's errand to keep thinking it could happen if we just wait a little bit longer.

In other words, you've never seen JK play well for this team? I don't mean this iteration of the team, he only had like 15 games with this roster. I mean, in the prior 4 years, you don't think he's shown anything?

He's shown he's a great athlete. That's literally it. There's nothing more to his game than run and jump.

That's why I don't get your love. I think you're blinded by the athlete and can't see the player.

[vvoland]

The fact that the Warriors are so out on Kuminga honestly says a lot to me. It's naive to think at this point after 4 years that there's really any chance suddenly in year 5 Kuminga will decide they're right, or the Warriors will decide they're wrong.

It's really far past the Einstein definition of insanity imo. We've seen it. It ain't changing. It's a fool's errand to keep thinking it could happen if we just wait a little bit longer.

In other words, you've never seen JK play well for this team? I don't mean this iteration of the team, he only had like 15 games with this roster. I mean, in the prior 4 years, you don't think he's shown anything?

He's shown he's a great athlete. That's literally it. There's nothing more to his game than run and jump.

That's why I don't get your love. I think you're blinded by the athlete and can't see the player.

I think it's really hard to finish at the rim at the level he does, draw fouls at the level he does, and score, efficiently (w/o the 3pt shot) at the level and volume he does (again, except for last season, which has some serious reasons). Shawn Marion was also an athlete that had few talents outside of running and jumping, and he did well for himself. On the other end of the spectrum was Blake Griffin, a run and jump athlete that parlayed that into a very different, yet even more successful, career.

I know JK thinks he's more Kobe than either of those and Kerr wants him to be Matrix while, I, would want him to be more Blake (he'll never be the creator that blake was but he can do a lot of the other things + better on-ball defense). Entering the league (and often still at 22), a ton of players are 'just athletes.' Some never get beyond that. Some change their game completely and evolve into something we never expected. Most land somewhere in between. Your Josh Smith comp seems to make more and more sense but I'll be on JK's professionalism over JS's.

If you did a redraft of the wiseman draft, 1, 3, and 5 years later, the order is likely to be wildly different. Just look at how the perception has flipped on players like Lamelo, Ant, Hali, Bane, Neismith, etc. I'd be willing to be whatever we think about those guys today is likely to change as soon as 6-12 months from now.

[AirP.]

Do you actually like JK as a player? I can't imagine actually enjoying him as a player, at least, not the one I've watched for four years, so I'm just wondering what your thought process is.

Not the current version. With his athleticism and ability to get to the rim, he could learn a lot from how Jimmy Butler plays the game. Improve his defense. Better passing off his dribble penetration. More efficient midrange. Can we put Jimmy brain in JK body?

At 22 Jimmy was not this. No one is. JB was a rookie getting 8 mins a game. AirP can provide more context on his development and what he did in the 4 years prior. If JK stays here another 2 years and JB is healthy, we could see some massive improvement.

There is some encouraging lineup data for JK, albeit in a tiny sample, in last year's playoffs playing next to JB. For example, JK/JB/GP2 were a +25 net rating, with a Drtg of 80 but in only 53 possessions. The problem is, that's like half a game but since JK had a TOTAL of 371 possessions through the 12 playoff games there's isn't going to be any 3 man lineup with a much bigger sample than 53.

Butler played his ROLE (3&D) and gained the coaches' confidence and was given an expanded role in his 3rd and 4th season, Thibodeau tested him out some his 3rd season creating some offense at the end of shot clocks and then gave him the green light as an offensive player his 4th season.

Butler did what he had to do to make and stay in the league, Kuminga seems to believe and act like he's owed something in this league. If Kuminga had Butler's mindset since being in the NBA to do what the team/coach needed him to do he may have gotten a max extension from GS last summer.

[vvoland]

Not the current version. With his athleticism and ability to get to the rim, he could learn a lot from how Jimmy Butler plays the game. Improve his defense. Better passing off his dribble penetration. More efficient midrange. Can we put Jimmy brain in JK body?

At 22 Jimmy was not this. No one is. JB was a rookie getting 8 mins a game. AirP can provide more context on his development and what he did in the 4 years prior. If JK stays here another 2 years and JB is healthy, we could see some massive improvement.

There is some encouraging lineup data for JK, albeit in a tiny sample, in last year's playoffs playing next to JB. For example, JK/JB/GP2 were a +25 net rating, with a Drtg of 80 but in only 53 possessions. The problem is, that's like half a game but since JK had a TOTAL of 371 possessions through the 12 playoff games there's isn't going to be any 3 man lineup with a much bigger sample than 53.

Butler played his ROLE (3&D) and gained the coaches' confidence and was given an expanded role in his 3rd and 4th season, Thibodeau tested him out some his 3rd season creating some offense at the end of shot clocks and then gave him the green light as an offensive player his 4th season.

Butler did what he had to do to make and stay in the league, Kuminga seems to believe and act like he's owed something in this league. If Kuminga had Butler's mindset since being in the NBA to do what the team/coach needed him to do he may have gotten a max extension from GS last summer.

You forgot to mention that by his 3/4th season he was 25/26 and was a role player, late draft pick, and on the fringe of the roster

[statsman]

Just shoot me now.

[all left]

This has been a three movie thread.... started with Moneyball, became Ground Hog Day, then veered off into Lolita.... thankfully we're back to Moneyball.

But I'm as starved for basketball content as anyone in the dog days of August, so I keep reading.

My own feeling about Kuminga is that he seems like a fine young person, smart, multilingual, and determined to get better at his craft (as he defines it). And the "as he defines it" may be the problem.

Another interesting comp is James Worthy. Also a top-tier "run and jump" athlete, quick, fast, and strong. He came into the league older and more polished than Kuminga, but still with a relatively limited game, as his physical gifts had allowed him to overpower college opponents. A #1 draft pick, Worthy might have felt entitled to be a "featured" offensive player. But he joined a dynasty at its peak, with 5 hall of fame players, 3 in their primes, two arguably top ten NBA all time. So he developed in a complementary role on the offensive end-- albeit in a system better suited to his or Kuminga's initial "raw" skill set than the current Warriors system-- added new wrinkles to his toolset every year, including a mid-range game that complemented his post game, and also became a very good defender. And doing this, he managed to carve out a hall of fame career of his own.

To be fair, Worthy got more minutes from the start than did Kuminga-- beginning at around 25 a game and going up from there. But he also came in only a year younger than Kuminga is now, with a more developed game than Kuminga entered the league with.

Kuminga has an instagram-ready tool set (and perhaps a similar sense of what is important on a basketball court), maybe not so much a team basketball oriented tool set or set of sub-goals driving his own work on his game. I agree with vvoland that Kuminga is still young and may improve, and would have loved to see it happen with the Warriors. But will his definition of goals for "improvement" actually provide him with the tools he really needs to be a featured, pivotal player on a good team-- his stated goal?

[AirP.]

At 22 Jimmy was not this. No one is. JB was a rookie getting 8 mins a game. AirP can provide more context on his development and what he did in the 4 years prior. If JK stays here another 2 years and JB is healthy, we could see some massive improvement.

There is some encouraging lineup data for JK, albeit in a tiny sample, in last year's playoffs playing next to JB. For example, JK/JB/GP2 were a +25 net rating, with a Drtg of 80 but in only 53 possessions. The problem is, that's like half a game but since JK had a TOTAL of 371 possessions through the 12 playoff games there's isn't going to be any 3 man lineup with a much bigger sample than 53.

Butler played his ROLE (3&D) and gained the coaches' confidence and was given an expanded role in his 3rd and 4th season, Thibodeau tested him out some his 3rd season creating some offense at the end of shot clocks and then gave him the green light as an offensive player his 4th season.

Butler did what he had to do to make and stay in the league, Kuminga seems to believe and act like he's owed something in this league. If Kuminga had Butler's mindset since being in the NBA to do what the team/coach needed him to do he may have gotten a max extension from GS last summer.

You forgot to mention that by his 3/4th season he was 25/26 and was a role player, late draft pick, and on the fringe of the roster

Sure, so quit trying to compare Butler and Kuminga, Butler did everything is coach/team needed to make it in the NBA (most lower picks will do this to make the NBA) while Kuminga just kept playing his own way expecting someone to hand him the role and money he wanted.

I doubt a massive improvement is coming, Kuminga played professionally in the G-League and has had 4 seasons in the NBA. He should have had his growth by now with his skill set since he's had the money to get professional trainers to grow his game. If given minutes I have no doubt Kuminga will score I just wonder if you can build a winning team around a player like him since he wants to be a top option which means the rest of the team will get iced out. You have to be a dominant offensive player to make that work on a winning team.

Kuminga's averaging 21-23 points per 36, so when a team gives him a big contract and a big role his shot rate will rise and I could see him put up 25 ppg but I don't expect that team to win all that much.

[vvoland]

Butler played his ROLE (3&D) and gained the coaches' confidence and was given an expanded role in his 3rd and 4th season, Thibodeau tested him out some his 3rd season creating some offense at the end of shot clocks and then gave him the green light as an offensive player his 4th season.

Butler did what he had to do to make and stay in the league, Kuminga seems to believe and act like he's owed something in this league. If Kuminga had Butler's mindset since being in the NBA to do what the team/coach needed him to do he may have gotten a max extension from GS last summer.

You forgot to mention that by his 3/4th season he was 25/26 and was a role player, late draft pick, and on the fringe of the roster

Sure, so quit trying to compare Butler and Kuminga, Butler did everything is coach/team needed to make it in the NBA (most lower picks will do this to make the NBA) while Kuminga just kept playing his own way expecting someone to give him the role and money he wanted.

You also should quit waiting for a massive improvement, Kuminga played professionally in the G-League and has had 4 seasons in the NBA. He should have had his growth by now with his skill set since he's had the money to get professional trainers to grow his game. If given minutes I have no doubt Kuminga will score I just wonder if you can build a winning team around a player like him since he wants to be a top option which means the rest of the team will get iced out. You have to be a dominant offensive player to make that work on a winning team.

I wasn't comparing the two. I was responding to a poster that said he wished JK would play more like Jimmy. I said Jimmy didn't play like Jimmy when he was 22. No one plays with that level of bbal iq, effort, stregth, etc. Maybe Lebron, by year 4, was in a similar place, as was Kobe, Duncan, and KG. Those are the very, very rare exceptions.

Your take on JK's motivation, thought process, etc. is little but projection. Ascribing motivation to actions of people you've never met is a fool's errand. You may not like his shot selection (i don't either) but telling the world why he has bad shot selection is what you're much more comfortable doing than I am.