Warriors exploring S&T for Kuminga

[AirP.]

You forgot to mention that by his 3/4th season he was 25/26 and was a role player, late draft pick, and on the fringe of the roster

Sure, so quit trying to compare Butler and Kuminga, Butler did everything is coach/team needed to make it in the NBA (most lower picks will do this to make the NBA) while Kuminga just kept playing his own way expecting someone to give him the role and money he wanted.

You also should quit waiting for a massive improvement, Kuminga played professionally in the G-League and has had 4 seasons in the NBA. He should have had his growth by now with his skill set since he's had the money to get professional trainers to grow his game. If given minutes I have no doubt Kuminga will score I just wonder if you can build a winning team around a player like him since he wants to be a top option which means the rest of the team will get iced out. You have to be a dominant offensive player to make that work on a winning team.

I wasn't comparing the two. I was responding to a poster that said he wished JK would play more like Jimmy. I said Jimmy didn't play like Jimmy when he was 22. No one plays with that level of bbal iq, effort, stregth, etc. Maybe Lebron, by year 4, was in a similar place, as was Kobe, Duncan, and KG. Those are the very, very rare exceptions.

Your take on JK's motivation, thought process, etc. is little but projection. Ascribing motivation to actions of people you've never met is a fool's errand. You may not like his shot selection (i don't either) but telling the world why he has bad shot selection is what you're much more comfortable doing than I am.

Golden State was trying to win a championship this season, Kuminga's actions on the court did not look like a guy trying to help a team win, it looked like a guy trying to get his numbers. A guy like Kuminga with the mindset of helping his team could have really helped this team last year vs getting benched like he did. This situation is why I hate teams trying to do 2 timelines. I just got done watching 1/2 a decade of that in Miami where I believe they cost themselves 1 championship because of it.

[Twinkie defense]

Another interesting comp is James Worthy.

You did not just compare Jonathan Kuminga to Hall of Famer Big Game James Worthy

[Twinkie defense]

Those who are still holding out hope that Kuminga will blossom, or prove the Warriors wrong on his next team, are echoing those long James Wiseman threads a few years back... both players: incredibly gifted natural size and athleticism, but very limited as basketball players. It's the vanity of front offices to think they can mold that raw clay into a great basketball player. Always, watch the tape. Let the tape dictate who you take - not the combine measurements.

[Twinkie defense]

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[all left]

Another interesting comp is James Worthy.

You did not just compare Jonathan Kuminga to Hall of Famer Big Game James Worthy

My point being that Kuminga seems to think he should be featured like a future hall of famer, while Worthy, who was one, was willing to develop as a complementary piece of a championship team.

[tal57]

Looks like that POS had dug in to play on the 7.9 mil and leave. If I am the Warriors, consider him the sunk cost. Sign who you can and want to sign and don't let him step on the court for a minute of playing time the entire season.

[Ilovethebay]

Looks like that POS had dug in to play on the 7.9 mil and leave. If I am the Warriors, consider him the sunk cost. Sign who you can and want to sign and don't let him step on the court for a minute of playing time the entire season.

A lot of anger directed at a guy who is just exercising his rights. Can’t understand why fans like you think the guy has to just fall in line with what you think is the best course for the team. Have fun with that outlook.

[AirP.]

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[statsman]

Spoiler:

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"... trending toward the qualifying offer ..."

[CS707]

Looks like that POS had dug in to play on the 7.9 mil and leave. If I am the Warriors, consider him the sunk cost. Sign who you can and want to sign and don't let him step on the court for a minute of playing time the entire season.

A lot of anger directed at a guy who is just exercising his rights. Can’t understand why fans like you think the guy has to just fall in line with what you think is the best course for the team. Have fun with that outlook.

Yeah, I'm not mad at him over it. Both sides are doing what's in their own best interests. That's also why I don't think there will be any carryover to the locker room either. Players understand it's a business and rarely cross the line when it comes to how another player goes about his business.

[CS707]

Those who are still holding out hope that Kuminga will blossom, or prove the Warriors wrong on his next team, are echoing those long James Wiseman threads a few years back... both players: incredibly gifted natural size and athleticism, but very limited as basketball players. It's the vanity of front offices to think they can mold that raw clay into a great basketball player. Always, watch the tape. Let the tape dictate who you take - not the combine measurements.

My skepticism lies mostly with the fact that a lot of the barriers that prevent him from being the player he wants to be are self-created. He doesn't necessarily need PT to become a better shooter or ball handler, or have a better understanding of the defensive assignments. If he spent more energy improving those areas, the rest would take care of itself. That said, I'm also not really emotionally invested in it. He still has value and we have limited options, so there's no point in dealing with him from a place of spite. I'm perfectly fine with how the Warriors have approached this and have no issue if it ends up that he plays on the QO. He stands to lose the most if things keep trending is this direction.

[vvoland]

Those who are still holding out hope that Kuminga will blossom, or prove the Warriors wrong on his next team, are echoing those long James Wiseman threads a few years back... both players: incredibly gifted natural size and athleticism, but very limited as basketball players. It's the vanity of front offices to think they can mold that raw clay into a great basketball player. Always, watch the tape. Let the tape dictate who you take - not the combine measurements.

My skepticism lies mostly with the fact that a lot of the barriers that prevent him from being the player he wants to be are self-created. He doesn't necessarily need PT to become a better shooter or ball handler, or have a better understanding of the defensive assignments. If he spent more energy improving those areas, the rest would take care of itself. That said, I'm also not really emotionally invested in it. He still has value and we have limited options, so there's no point in dealing with him from a place of spite. I'm perfectly fine with how the Warriors have approached this and have no issue if it ends up that he plays on the QO. He stands to lose the most if things keep trending is this direction.

Shooting, especially, is as much confidence as hours in the practice gym. When you think you'll be pulled for every miss, you tend to shoot worse. Not that that's why I think Kerr pulls JK but I can see why JK thinks so - people who can make 3s get a lot more rope and Kerr has said that publicly, multiple times.

Same think for off-ball defense. The more you play, at nba speed, in high pressure moments, the better you get at recognition, feel, etc. I'm not saying JK will be a knockdown shooter or kawhi leonard, off-ball, if Kerr played him more. I just don't think it's as simple as hitting the practice gym and working on his handles, shot, or rebounding. All 3 are much different skills when nba level defenders are trying to prevent you from doing those things.

I actually think we stand to lose the most if he plays on the QO. He's likely to be upset, Kerr is likely to bury him, he'll have the NTC, and be on a 1 yr contract that will be too small to move, IF he waives his NTC, for a good player.

[vvoland]

Looks like that POS had dug in to play on the 7.9 mil and leave. If I am the Warriors, consider him the sunk cost. Sign who you can and want to sign and don't let him step on the court for a minute of playing time the entire season.

A lot of anger directed at a guy who is just exercising his rights. Can’t understand why fans like you think the guy has to just fall in line with what you think is the best course for the team. Have fun with that outlook.

Thanks for saying it. I thought I was the only one taken aback by someone calling a 22 year old that's negotating his contract, a POS. Just for not caving to the dubs's first (only?) offer.

[Onus]

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Lmfao!!!

No wonder the warriors aren’t going guarantee any part of that 2nd year.

[marthafokker]

JK not playing for Congo probably also means he is anchoring down, so he minimize injuries.

My projected guess is Dubbs will open real talks come 9/15, at the latest. No way they will wait until 10/1 if JK goes to the deadline. Some of the handshake deals will have walked before then when money is involved.

[CS707]

Those who are still holding out hope that Kuminga will blossom, or prove the Warriors wrong on his next team, are echoing those long James Wiseman threads a few years back... both players: incredibly gifted natural size and athleticism, but very limited as basketball players. It's the vanity of front offices to think they can mold that raw clay into a great basketball player. Always, watch the tape. Let the tape dictate who you take - not the combine measurements.

My skepticism lies mostly with the fact that a lot of the barriers that prevent him from being the player he wants to be are self-created. He doesn't necessarily need PT to become a better shooter or ball handler, or have a better understanding of the defensive assignments. If he spent more energy improving those areas, the rest would take care of itself. That said, I'm also not really emotionally invested in it. He still has value and we have limited options, so there's no point in dealing with him from a place of spite. I'm perfectly fine with how the Warriors have approached this and have no issue if it ends up that he plays on the QO. He stands to lose the most if things keep trending is this direction.

Shooting, especially, is as much confidence as hours in the practice gym. When you think you'll be pulled for every miss, you tend to shoot worse. Not that that's why I think Kerr pulls JK but I can see why JK thinks so - people who can make 3s get a lot more rope and Kerr has said that publicly, multiple times.

Same think for off-ball defense. The more you play, at nba speed, in high pressure moments, the better you get at recognition, feel, etc. I'm not saying JK will be a knockdown shooter or kawhi leonard, off-ball, if Kerr played him more. I just don't think it's as simple as hitting the practice gym and working on his handles, shot, or rebounding. All 3 are much different skills when nba level defenders are trying to prevent you from doing those things.

I actually think we stand to lose the most if he plays on the QO. He's likely to be upset, Kerr is likely to bury him, he'll have the NTC, and be on a 1 yr contract that will be too small to move, IF he waives his NTC, for a good player.

It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg conundrum but I don't see the aforementioned shortcomings being the result of a lack of confidence. He's really just not a great shooter, ball handler, or off-ball defender. I also assume he's getting plenty of time in practice to showcase those skills. Either way, it's clearly an agree to disagree thing.

Regarding the QO, worst case scenario is that we lose the ability to use him as an asset. His next contract is on the line.

[vvoland]

My skepticism lies mostly with the fact that a lot of the barriers that prevent him from being the player he wants to be are self-created. He doesn't necessarily need PT to become a better shooter or ball handler, or have a better understanding of the defensive assignments. If he spent more energy improving those areas, the rest would take care of itself. That said, I'm also not really emotionally invested in it. He still has value and we have limited options, so there's no point in dealing with him from a place of spite. I'm perfectly fine with how the Warriors have approached this and have no issue if it ends up that he plays on the QO. He stands to lose the most if things keep trending is this direction.

Shooting, especially, is as much confidence as hours in the practice gym. When you think you'll be pulled for every miss, you tend to shoot worse. Not that that's why I think Kerr pulls JK but I can see why JK thinks so - people who can make 3s get a lot more rope and Kerr has said that publicly, multiple times.

Same think for off-ball defense. The more you play, at nba speed, in high pressure moments, the better you get at recognition, feel, etc. I'm not saying JK will be a knockdown shooter or kawhi leonard, off-ball, if Kerr played him more. I just don't think it's as simple as hitting the practice gym and working on his handles, shot, or rebounding. All 3 are much different skills when nba level defenders are trying to prevent you from doing those things.

I actually think we stand to lose the most if he plays on the QO. He's likely to be upset, Kerr is likely to bury him, he'll have the NTC, and be on a 1 yr contract that will be too small to move, IF he waives his NTC, for a good player.

It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg conundrum but I don't see the aforementioned shortcomings being the result of a lack of confidence. He's really just not a great shooter, ball handler, or off-ball defender. I also assume he's getting plenty of time in practice to showcase those skills. Either way, it's clearly an agree to disagree thing.

Regarding the QO, worst case scenario is that we lose the ability to use him as an asset. His next contract is on the line.

We can agree to disagree, I'll just say there are a million practice players that can't replicate it when the live bullets start flying. FTs are the most common example. BTW, I'm not saying he is a great shooter. Can he consistently hit 36% from 3 and, as a result get more playing time here? I think so (and he has, on low volume). Does he need the confidence (self, from kerr, from the team) to do it? Almost certainly.

Losing him as an asset is a pretty bad scenario, for us. We have 2 assets on this roster we can move that are worth >0. Podz and JK. I'm not counting Steph, Dray, or JB since we need all 3 to be relevant. Punting on one of our 2 assets is a luxury we can't afford. Just like DNP-CDing was a luxury we couldn't afford last year. Yes, his fit, mental willingness, ability, and matury (basketball-wise) are all a question. The problem is, this roster isnt' talented enough to just punt on JK like he's Jordan Bell and we got prime Steph/KD/Klay/Dray/Iggy to ride into the spring. He's not and we don't.

[Old_Blue]

The fact that Portis is making $13,445,754 this coming season and the Dubs wanted to swap him for Kuminga gives you an idea how much the Dubs think Kuminga is worth.

[CS707]

Shooting, especially, is as much confidence as hours in the practice gym. When you think you'll be pulled for every miss, you tend to shoot worse. Not that that's why I think Kerr pulls JK but I can see why JK thinks so - people who can make 3s get a lot more rope and Kerr has said that publicly, multiple times.

Same think for off-ball defense. The more you play, at nba speed, in high pressure moments, the better you get at recognition, feel, etc. I'm not saying JK will be a knockdown shooter or kawhi leonard, off-ball, if Kerr played him more. I just don't think it's as simple as hitting the practice gym and working on his handles, shot, or rebounding. All 3 are much different skills when nba level defenders are trying to prevent you from doing those things.

I actually think we stand to lose the most if he plays on the QO. He's likely to be upset, Kerr is likely to bury him, he'll have the NTC, and be on a 1 yr contract that will be too small to move, IF he waives his NTC, for a good player.

It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg conundrum but I don't see the aforementioned shortcomings being the result of a lack of confidence. He's really just not a great shooter, ball handler, or off-ball defender. I also assume he's getting plenty of time in practice to showcase those skills. Either way, it's clearly an agree to disagree thing.

Regarding the QO, worst case scenario is that we lose the ability to use him as an asset. His next contract is on the line.

We can agree to disagree, I'll just say there are a million practice players that can't replicate it when the live bullets start flying. FTs are the most common example. BTW, I'm not saying he is a great shooter. Can he consistently hit 36% from 3 and, as a result get more playing time here? I think so (and he has, on low volume). Does he need the confidence (self, from kerr, from the team) to do it? Almost certainly.

Losing him as an asset is a pretty bad scenario, for us. We have 2 assets on this roster we can move that are worth >0. Podz and JK. I'm not counting Steph, Dray, or JB since we need all 3 to be relevant. Punting on one of our 2 assets is a luxury we can't afford. Just like DNP-CDing was a luxury we couldn't afford last year. Yes, his fit, mental willingness, ability, and matury (basketball-wise) are all a question. The problem is, this roster isnt' talented enough to just punt on JK like he's Jordan Bell and we got prime Steph/KD/Klay/Dray/Iggy to ride into the spring. He's not and we don't.

It’s not an ideal scenario but I’m not troubled by the possibility of losing him for nothing. I expect a major shakeup next offseason if things don’t go well so the I don’t feel the same desperation for retaining him as a salary slot. The trade options aren’t likely to be much better mid season than we’re seeing now anyway, especially if we end up giving him a PO. As I have said several times, the PO just puts pressure on him to perform if he wants a contract anything close to what it seems he’s looking for. If he does have a good season, the Warriors will still be in the best position to retain him, IMO.

[vvoland]

It's a little bit of the chicken or the egg conundrum but I don't see the aforementioned shortcomings being the result of a lack of confidence. He's really just not a great shooter, ball handler, or off-ball defender. I also assume he's getting plenty of time in practice to showcase those skills. Either way, it's clearly an agree to disagree thing.

Regarding the QO, worst case scenario is that we lose the ability to use him as an asset. His next contract is on the line.

We can agree to disagree, I'll just say there are a million practice players that can't replicate it when the live bullets start flying. FTs are the most common example. BTW, I'm not saying he is a great shooter. Can he consistently hit 36% from 3 and, as a result get more playing time here? I think so (and he has, on low volume). Does he need the confidence (self, from kerr, from the team) to do it? Almost certainly.

Losing him as an asset is a pretty bad scenario, for us. We have 2 assets on this roster we can move that are worth >0. Podz and JK. I'm not counting Steph, Dray, or JB since we need all 3 to be relevant. Punting on one of our 2 assets is a luxury we can't afford. Just like DNP-CDing was a luxury we couldn't afford last year. Yes, his fit, mental willingness, ability, and matury (basketball-wise) are all a question. The problem is, this roster isnt' talented enough to just punt on JK like he's Jordan Bell and we got prime Steph/KD/Klay/Dray/Iggy to ride into the spring. He's not and we don't.

It’s not an ideal scenario but I’m not troubled by the possibility of losing him for nothing. I expect a major shakeup next offseason if things don’t go well so the I don’t feel the same desperation for retaining him as a salary slot. The trade options aren’t likely to be much better mid season than we’re seeing now anyway, especially if we end up giving him a PO. As I have said several times, the PO just puts pressure on him to perform if he wants a contract anything close to what it seems he’s looking for. If he does have a good season, the Warriors will still be in the best position to retain him, IMO.

A PO is always an advantage for the player. IF the warriors are so desperate to give $0 guarantees in year 2 AND keeping the TO, just let him keep the NTC. He's motivated to leave and will likely approve most trades (maybe he doesn't want to go to uta based on the fans' rep). If they are so hung up on the NTC, just remove the TO and put a partial guarantee on year 2. Done. I really don't see the reason to drag this out. With Jimmy in China, Steph and Dray doing their own thing, and the FAs willing to wait, there's no real reason to rush, I guess. The vibes matter.