Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[Rust_Cohle]

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I'll never get this weird giving credit for Jordan...who was barely even older than Pippen and Grant for their success. Jordan by all accounts...even his if you listen closely, was a terrible teammate and treated people terribly. He wasn't building them up.

But the 9th pick Brad Sellars didn't get better thanks to MJ. Will Perdue an 11th pick likely played his best ball on the Spurs in his early 30's. Where was the MJ effect? Stacey King was the 6th pick and he never did anything. BJ Armstrong had a decent career but his best year was without MJ.

The bulls were hardly some team that was building new guys either over that run. And Pippen and Jordan seemingly tried to tank Toni and thankfully he was just too good for them. I'd still argue if anything they got less value from him than he was able to give.

I don't disagree with your points, but from Phil himself:

Read on Twitter

[dhsilv2]

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I'll never get this weird giving credit for Jordan...who was barely even older than Pippen and Grant for their success. Jordan by all accounts...even his if you listen closely, was a terrible teammate and treated people terribly. He wasn't building them up.

But the 9th pick Brad Sellars didn't get better thanks to MJ. Will Perdue an 11th pick likely played his best ball on the Spurs in his early 30's. Where was the MJ effect? Stacey King was the 6th pick and he never did anything. BJ Armstrong had a decent career but his best year was without MJ.

The bulls were hardly some team that was building new guys either over that run. And Pippen and Jordan seemingly tried to tank Toni and thankfully he was just too good for them. I'd still argue if anything they got less value from him than he was able to give.

I don't disagree with your points, but from Phil himself:

I mean if we actually listen to this without the BS and music. Jordan was a dick, terrible teammate, one of these drill sergeant type leaders and i didn't work until he found a guy who was similar to him. And then he kind helped with Pippen...

One of my favorite sayings of all time is this.

when the student is ready, the teacher will appear

The point being is mostly that people who want success will find someone to learn from. The teacher isn't all that special. Now there are great teachers...but there's nothing to show or indicate MJ was remotely that. Guys like Pippen and Grant were just going to be successful anywhere and would have found someone to learn from anywhere.

[Cavsfansince84]

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

I know fully well how Grant developed as a player and it wasn't due to MJ. It was overwhelmingly due to Johnny Bach who worked tirelessly with him to become the defender he was and also pushed him into doing weight lifting which he did and you can see the results of it. Grant went from being a trainwreck as defender to one of the best defending pf's in the league and that's mostly due to Bach. Regardless, none of that is even relevant to the point I made because you or someone else listed a bunch of guys which included Bosh and Love as proof of how great LeBron's teammates were and what I said is that Grant was better in his role than Bosh or Love were in their's to which you laughed and acted like I was on drugs or something. Then when I gave some facts to back it up with you changed it to an argument over peaks and whatnot before finally agreeing I was right and acting like it matters that Grant was drafted in the comparison. It doesn't matter. We were talking about impact on the teams they played on. Also, Grant as a #2 option in 94 did do pretty well.

[MavsDirk41]

And Scottie, Pippen, and Toni Kukoc and Phil Jackson and more

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

Varejao?

He had a solid run as a backup big, energy guy for Cleveland. I always thought he was a good player. Not a star obviously but certainly a capable big man who could rebound and do the dirty work.

[MavsDirk41]

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I disagree with you and i assume your feeling is that no top 10 player helped the development of a young nba player…..Pippen was pretty raw when he came into the league. He didnt enter the nba as a star player, top 5 pick or not. Why do you think Seattle traded him?

[MavsDirk41]

Its not my opinion on why Grant would have possibly been more impactful during his Bulls tenure, there are fact’s supporting this which i mentioned - he played with Jordan/Pippen longer, and was developed by the Bulls. He didnt have to adapt his game or role. Not sure why saying this is a problem lol? Its the truth….i also think it means more when a trio that develops together, faces adversity, and then finds success in comparison to a trio of stars teaming up and winning.

I know fully well how Grant developed as a player and it wasn't due to MJ. It was overwhelmingly due to Johnny Bach who worked tirelessly with him to become the defender he was and also pushed him into doing weight lifting which he did and you can see the results of it. Grant went from being a trainwreck as defender to one of the best defending pf's in the league and that's mostly due to Bach. Regardless, none of that is even relevant to the point I made because you or someone else listed a bunch of guys which included Bosh and Love as proof of how great LeBron's teammates were and what I said is that Grant was better in his role than Bosh or Love were in their's to which you laughed and acted like I was on drugs or something. Then I gave some facts to back it up with you changed it to an argument over peaks and whatnot before finally agreeing I was right and acting like it matters that Grant was drafted in the comparison. It doesn't matter. We were talking about impact on the teams they played on. Also, Grant as a #2 option in 94 did do pretty well.

The coaching staff obviously had an enormous impact on the development of Horace Grant. But if you think practicing with Jordan on a daily basis had no positive impact to his development then we will just disagree. I also laid out some facts on why Grant had a more positive impact in his role with the Bulls in comparison to Bosh and Love going to Miami and Cleveland as the 3rd fiddle and playing with James fewer years then Grant played with Jordan but lets just ignore those details because they werent your thought. Lol alright man.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Stockton also said, "Stay off my lawn!"

[Cavsfansince84]

The coaching staff obviously had an enormous impact on the development of Horace Grant. But if you think practicing with Jordan on a daily basis had no positive impact to his development then we will just disagree. I also laid out some facts on why Grant had a more positive impact in his role with the Bulls in comparison to Bosh and Love going to Miami and Cleveland as the 3rd fiddle and playing with James fewer years then Grant played with Jordan but lets just ignore those details because they werent your thought. Lol alright man.

It's not that it wasn't my thought, its that its completely irrelevant to what we were discussing after you replied so sarcastically to begin with. Then also after you did a big goal post move to try and defend acting in that way and even now, you are still just giving me some convoluted nonsense endng with lol alright man. Why? Because you're always in this spin mode on here and can't simply admit you were wrong without something else added on which has nothing to do with anything. Just give Grant credit and move on.

[DimesandKnicks]

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I disagree with you and i assume your feeling is that no top 10 player helped the development of a young nba player…..Pippen was pretty raw when he came into the league. He didnt enter the nba as a star player, top 5 pick or not. Why do you think Seattle traded him?

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

[Cavsfansince84]

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

The thing that a lot of people can't do is simultaneously give Pippen most of the credit for having great raw talent and a strong work ethic to develop while just understanding that MJ was part of that. It's like that's not MJ making him into the player he became, its him having a role in it just as the coaching staff did and Phil giving him a big role in the offense. MJ gets enough credit as the greatest scorer of all time and everything else. We don't need to stretch it into him getting all the credit for Pippen and Grant becoming hof players. That's the sort of mythicizing that we need to be able to see past 30 years after the fact. Same as Russell can be a goat and we can also acknowledge that Red is maybe the best gm of all time, which helps if the goal is to assemble the best team possible.

[jmo21]

First off I am no way a Lebron "fan". I appreciate his greatness. Number 2 all time for me after MJ, but dont care that much to argue who's better.

But this **** about dont have value because he didnt stay is just asinine made up nonsense.

Why does it have to be the team that makes the decision to move a player on? Why can't the player make his own decisions about what to do within the rules of his contract end dates. Of course the fans want the players to be loyal, but that's just made up shite because they're "famous".

Im not staying in the same job forever (spoiler, nearly 50 and have job hopped whenever suited me, very much to my financial gain) so why should athletes?

Did he force his teams to mortgage their futures by spending picks for vets? No doubt. Is this bad? Maybe. Those decisions were someone else's job.

But he got titles and lots of finals appearances so whose to say that was the wrong way to do it.

Maybe Stockton would have had rings if he'd forced a trade to the Bulls for BJ armstrong and picks.

[Iwasawitness]

True…and Miami had Wade, Battier, Mike Miller and more. Cleveland had Kyrie Irving, JR Smith, Anderson Varajeo and more. Neither Jordan or James had success without help.

Varejao?

He had a solid run as a backup big, energy guy for Cleveland. I always thought he was a good player. Not a star obviously but certainly a capable big man who could rebound and do the dirty work.

Yeah but he wasn't on the championship team.

[MavsDirk41]

The coaching staff obviously had an enormous impact on the development of Horace Grant. But if you think practicing with Jordan on a daily basis had no positive impact to his development then we will just disagree. I also laid out some facts on why Grant had a more positive impact in his role with the Bulls in comparison to Bosh and Love going to Miami and Cleveland as the 3rd fiddle and playing with James fewer years then Grant played with Jordan but lets just ignore those details because they werent your thought. Lol alright man.

It's not that it wasn't my thought, its that its completely irrelevant to what we were discussing after you replied so sarcastically to begin with. Then also after you did a big goal post move to try and defend acting in that way and even now, you are still just giving me some convoluted nonsense endng with lol alright man. Why? Because you're always in this spin mode on here and can't simply admit you were wrong without something else added on which has nothing to do with anything. Just give Grant credit and move on.

Why was what i wrote nonsense? You say i was sacrcastic….well how pleasant is your post? Because i always spin stuff? And i added stuff that was irrelevant!? And pretty sure i added some relevant information within my reply but because you dont agree then lesson learned lol. Have a nice life pal and enjoy your weekend.

[Cavsfansince84]

Why was what i wrote nonsense? You say i was sacrcastic….well how pleasant is your post? Because i always spin stuff? And i added stuff that was irrelevant!? And pretty sure i added some relevant information within my reply but because you dont agree then lesson learned lol. Have a nice life pal and enjoy your weekend.

Look at your original response to me. It reeks of what I'm referring to. Better yet, please just refrain from trying to discuss things with me in the future because I don't have time for people who aren't about being honest while discussing things or want to make discussions into something else to hide behind them which is what you often do on here.

[MavsDirk41]

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I disagree with you and i assume your feeling is that no top 10 player helped the development of a young nba player…..Pippen was pretty raw when he came into the league. He didnt enter the nba as a star player, top 5 pick or not. Why do you think Seattle traded him?

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

Maybe Pippen would have been just as great if drafted by another team who knows? The Bulls drafted Pippen because they needed a wing. Their best players were who, Oakley, Paxson Corzine, and Sellers after Jordan. Why not draft Pippen? He had plenty of potential but again, needed some development. You think Seattle would have made that trade if they really thought Pippen was a sure thing? Again great move by Krause. I never said Pippen or Grant only turned out the way they did because of Jordan, i simply said that he deserves some credit for helping them in their growth/development. Sellers and Brown didnt pan out….it happens. Funny how some of you react to saying anything remotely positive about Jordan lol.

[MavsDirk41]

Why was what i wrote nonsense? You say i was sacrcastic….well how pleasant is your post? Because i always spin stuff? And i added stuff that was irrelevant!? And pretty sure i added some relevant information within my reply but because you dont agree then lesson learned lol. Have a nice life pal and enjoy your weekend.

Look at your original response to me. It reeks of what I'm referring to. Better yet, please just refrain from trying to discuss things with me in the future because I don't have time for people who aren't about being honest while discussing things or want to make discussions into something else to hide behind them which is what you often do on here.

No worries pal you will never hear from me again

[Cavsfansince84]

No worries pal you will never hear from me again

That's perfect. ty

[MavsDirk41]

Varejao?

He had a solid run as a backup big, energy guy for Cleveland. I always thought he was a good player. Not a star obviously but certainly a capable big man who could rebound and do the dirty work.

Yeah but he wasn't on the championship team.

I honestly didnt know i thought he was

[One Last Shot]

The coaching staff obviously had an enormous impact on the development of Horace Grant. But if you think practicing with Jordan on a daily basis had no positive impact to his development then we will just disagree. I also laid out some facts on why Grant had a more positive impact in his role with the Bulls in comparison to Bosh and Love going to Miami and Cleveland as the 3rd fiddle and playing with James fewer years then Grant played with Jordan but lets just ignore those details because they werent your thought. Lol alright man.

It's not that it wasn't my thought, its that its completely irrelevant to what we were discussing after you replied so sarcastically to begin with. Then also after you did a big goal post move to try and defend acting in that way and even now, you are still just giving me some convoluted nonsense endng with lol alright man. Why? Because you're always in this spin mode on here and can't simply admit you were wrong without something else added on which has nothing to do with anything. Just give Grant credit and move on.

Why was what i wrote nonsense? You say i was sacrcastic….well how pleasant is your post? Because i always spin stuff? And i added stuff that was irrelevant!? And pretty sure i added some relevant information within my reply but because you dont agree then lesson learned lol. Have a nice life pal and enjoy your weekend.

How about I share what Pippen said himself, you think that's a relevant information from his firsthand experience? He said Jordan is a horrible player and horrible to played with and MJ's all about one on one and keep shooting bad shots. There's also lot of reports of MJ bullied his teammates like telling not to pass the ball to Cartwright until Bill confronts MJ and told him he wil break his legs and never play basketball again if he ever heard him saying that again then as expected from a bully, Jordan stop bothering him after he stand up against the GOAT. As the story goes, MJ likes to bully teammates he thinks can be bullied. Once they stand up to him he backs down. He also assaults his teammates physically like what he did to Kerr. In any working environment, that should be a negative don't you think? But hey they won 6 titles despite MJ's horrible attitude that should erase all those things now we got posters here glorifiying him telling everyone that Jordan molds his best teammates to the best version of themselves because he turn their practice into war.

Read on Twitter

[MavsDirk41]

It's not that it wasn't my thought, its that its completely irrelevant to what we were discussing after you replied so sarcastically to begin with. Then also after you did a big goal post move to try and defend acting in that way and even now, you are still just giving me some convoluted nonsense endng with lol alright man. Why? Because you're always in this spin mode on here and can't simply admit you were wrong without something else added on which has nothing to do with anything. Just give Grant credit and move on.

Why was what i wrote nonsense? You say i was sacrcastic….well how pleasant is your post? Because i always spin stuff? And i added stuff that was irrelevant!? And pretty sure i added some relevant information within my reply but because you dont agree then lesson learned lol. Have a nice life pal and enjoy your weekend.

How about I share what Pippen said himself, you think that's a relevant information from his firsthand experience? He said Jordan is a horrible player and horrible to played with and MJ's all about one on one and keep shooting bad shots. There's also lot of reports of MJ bullied his teammates like telling not to pass the ball to Cartwright until Bill confronts MJ and told him he wil break his legs and never play basketball again if he ever heard him saying that again then as expected from a bully, Jordan stop bothering him after he stand up against the GOAT. As the story goes, MJ likes to bully teammates he thinks can be bullied. Once they stand up to him he backs down. He also assaults his teammates physically like what he did to Kerr. In any working environment, that should be a negative don't you think? But hey they won 6 titles despite MJ's horrible attitude that should erase all those things now we got posters here glorifiying him telling everyone that Jordan molds his best teammates to the best version of themselves because he turn their practice into war.

Read on Twitter

Did you also know that Scottie Pippen had also come out in 2010 I believe and publicly gave Michael Jordan credit for his growth as a player? Go google that and see if im lying. Scottie Pippen also said Magic is the goat before. Scottie has a tendency to change his mind. But i dont care to argue about this anymore lol Jordan is the most overrated player ever who was a big bully. You feel better now?