Was John Stockton an overrated defender?

[SlimShady83]

What’s with all the Stockton threads? Why are we trashing legends?

Cause he say something that upset the lebron james fans

[Diop]

No. Not overrated.

Stockton was extremely strong and tough for his size, and physical. He also had incredible defensive anticipation.

Stockton was a dog and wouldn't back down from anyone.

I don't recall him having great lateral quickness but his BBIQ, toughness and competitiveness made up for any physical shortcomings.

Stockton was like a basketball robot and much rougher than his pleasant appearance would suggest.

He was also sneaky dirty to make life as difficult as possible for his opponent

[benson13]

For a guy who never made an All-Defensive First Team, his defense constantly gets praised for being all-time great for a point guard with fans today. I understand he is the all-time steals leader and overall a pesk as a help defender, but as a man defender he was pretty average from alot of tape I saw, his size limited that obviously. There are some games out there where he got absolutely torched.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

Porter basically took a giant **** on Stockton that entire series.

I'm not really understanding this. You're saying because an All-Star had a couple good series against Stockton he's not a good defender. LeBron James is an amazing defensive player. Kevin Durant absolutely torched LeBron in all three finals they matched up.

I know already that you're thinking to yourself "Terry Porter isn't Kevin Durant". Well John Stockton isn't LeBron James either. The point is a good player having a good playoff series isn't really something you should use to make a blanket statement about the player guarding said good player during that series.

Jesus Christ, I hate John Stockton and everything about the Utah Jazz. When I go skiing in SLC, I ask everyone in line for the lifts if they're Jazz fans, and if they are I won't ride with them. Yet here I am defending Stockton.

[dhsilv2]

First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Mookie Blaylock as well to the other players you mentioned

Mookie deserved far more praise than he got but atlanta wasn't great.

[dhsilv2]

if the argument is he got some all nba defensive teams off rep, sure he's overrated. That said nobody says he's some kind of elite defender. He was decent on man and great roaming off ball. net net that's pretty darn good. Which is where he's generally seen.

[Daddy 801]

He took charges like a man four times his size. It’s a skill to take charges so I give him a ton of props for that ability. That’s not to mention his steals. Which with the Stockton hate that some seem to have in this forum I’m sure they will find a way to try and deminish that stat.

[Maxthirty]

Why are we trashing legends?

Because this is realgm? That’s what 90% of this forum is.

[cupcakesnake]

Stockton occasionally had struggles against super athletic point guards (Kevin Johnson comes to mind), and Stockton was often at a disadvantage in terms of speed/quicks. He was a SUPER tough and gritty player though, with elite hands and smarts. Overall, I think Stockton was a pretty great defender for a small guard. Small guards are supposed to be liabilities, and Stockton was a definite defensive plus.

[bkkrh]

First, where does he get constantly praised for his defense? I don´t get how a player can be overrated when he is constantly left out of the "greatest PG" discussion and barely makes a top 3 PG list while being the All Time leader in Assists and Steals and holding the record for highest Assist average per game.

The only people I can recall that ever bringing up Stockton are Point Guards that played against him, like Steve Kerr and Gary Payton. And here I kinda trust that they know what they are talking about, since they actually played against him.

Related to All Defense 1st. I´d say it´s not so easy to make the 1st team when 1 spot is pretty much reserved each season for Jordan and you play at the same time than, Dumars, Alvin Robertson, Payton, McMillan and so on.

About the 2 vids. Well, Andre Miller dropped 52 on Jason Kidd, Devin Harris 41, so guess he is overrated as well^^.

Mookie Blaylock as well to the other players you mentioned

Mookie deserved far more praise than he got but atlanta wasn't great.

Yeah there were a lot more, Moncrieff, Pressey, Cooper, Majerle, Derek Harper, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Mo Cheeks, Darrell Walker.

[dhsilv2]

Mookie Blaylock as well to the other players you mentioned

Mookie deserved far more praise than he got but atlanta wasn't great.

Yeah there were a lot more, Moncrieff, Pressey, Cooper, Majerle, Derek Harper, Fat Lever, Doc Rivers, Mo Cheeks, Darrell Walker.

Great list of somewhat forgotten guys. Though at least Moncrieff has the DPOY awards (even if not really deserved).

I still remember when I first saw the RAPM numbers and I recall going through some of the guys from the mid 90's and I still remember seeing how Gary Payton's defensive stats didn't match his reputation...he was of course still very good.Very much taking me back to being a kid and getting a lesson from some dad's on why height matters lol. But none the less...then pop's out Mookie who's meaningfully better in the RAPM data and even Payton on defense. He's not Robinson, but suddenly it's like...wow that's what a small man can do. Now of course, I was looking for Mookie since I was wondering how he'd hold up to my memory...and instead of being disappointed a bit after seeing Payton. I was like...oh...so I actually had Mookie underrated. Shocker mind you...I underrated a guy on a team I didn't see much due to the era.

It's sad we don't have more data like that at least back till 90, if not 80. It would change so much basketball talk.

[nomansland]

I don't know about overrated, but back in the day he was respected as a defender. One thing for sure is that he was pretty dirty by today's standards, famous for grabbing dudes' shorts and shirts. Can't blame him because the refs allowed it, but it was effective.

[Red Robot]

Stockton's defense was overrated at the time because he was so active and aggressive, both on the ball and going for steals. These days, there's more of an awareness that activity does not always equal effectiveness, and a similar defender wouldn't be regarded as highly.

In retrospect, he probably didn't quite deserve to make those all-defense teams. And now that we're getting farther from his era, those selections really shape how he's 'rated' today.

But he was still pretty good. It's not like he was a bad defender. It's also hard to argue with the overall team results, even if I'd attribute most of that to other players.

[TheGeneral99]

I think he's properly rated.

He never made a defensive 1st team, but he made a few defensive 2nd teams, he was an absolute pest and an incredibly hard-worker who knew how to play the game.

Nobody considers him a GOAT level defender, but he's regarded as an elite defender with mind boggling steals numbers over a long career. He had very quick hands, very disruptive, knew how to read passing lanes, very tough.

[1993Playoffs]

All time assist and steals leader overrated playmaker and defender.

That is certainly an opinion.

I don't value Rondo Playmakers (guys that hold the ball and operate the offense instead of creating opportunities by threatening to score), I don't value small guard chihuahua defense nor do I value longevity over extreme peaks and rare seasons the same way other people do.

I think John Stockton's perception is mostly due to Karl Malone being HOFer scorer that carried the Jazz. Karl Malone made John Stockton, a guy that would have the career of Brevin Knight or Rondo, a hall of famer.

You can't convince me Jrue Holiday is not a better basketball player than John Stockton.

Yup Jrue Holiday in 2018 was better than Stockton ever was.

[falcolombardi]

Yes