How big is the gap between Giannis and Bron?

[One Last Shot]

You give Giannis the same supporting cast Lebron has had and I honestly think he wins just as many rings if not more.

Lebron is still the better overall player but the gap isnt as big as it would seem.

If anything, give Lebron Giannis' support cast and he would have stay in the Bucks and won 3+ championships.

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

Give prime LeBron a starting line-up of Middleton/Jrue/Lopez/Tucker and shooters like Portis/Donte/Forbes/Pat off the bench and see what happen. Check the squad he lead to 66 wins. How about those teams he lead to 2007 and 2018 Finals?

Yeah I think people might need to step back and think about the implications of saying this.

I said Lebron is the better player but he's also not won as many rings as a guy with his supporting cast and someone at his level should have.

He clowned the raptors more times than I would have expected.

The LeBron trauma on the collective psyche of Raptors fans will last for a very long time.

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[Tor_Raps]

If anything, give Lebron Giannis' support cast and he would have stay in the Bucks and won 3+ championships.

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

Give prime LeBron a starting line-up of Middleton/Jrue/Lopez/Tucker and shooters like Portis/Donte/Forbes/Pat off the bench and see what happen.

You mean win a championship like Giannis did? LOL

The team was hurt every season after that...

[DavidSterned]

Not even a comparison.

Peak Lebron is the most dominant player of the last 40 years. Even over Shaq, who was a liability down the stretch. And Jordan couldn't guard 1 through 5 either. Lebron at his peak was like 3 superstars rolled into one. That was his level of impact.

Giannis is great but he can't even make it out of the East. Jokic of the East.

Guarding 1-5? You think Lebron would have been effectively guarding Shaq and Hakeem in the 90s?

We'll never know without a time machine but I''ve seen him guard Jokic in the olympics when he's almost 40. What we have is prime LeBron guarding 1-5 in the highest level of basketball against the Spurs dynasty during the NBA Finals.

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Or maybe being one of the most clutch player defensively all-time?

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Lol yes we definitely need a time machine to answer the question of whether LeBron could effectively guard 2000 Shaq. Great point.

[Maxthirty]

Well, LeBron is clearly in the highest tier. He’s #1 or #2 all time to most objective fans. And it’s certainly not crazy to think Kareem is ahead of him, though I disagree.

Tier 1 - LeBron, Kareem, Jordan

[One Last Shot]

Guarding 1-5? You think Lebron would have been effectively guarding Shaq and Hakeem in the 90s?

We'll never know without a time machine but I''ve seen him guard Jokic in the olympics when he's almost 40. What we have is prime LeBron guarding 1-5 in the highest level of basketball against the Spurs dynasty during the NBA Finals.

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Or maybe being one of the most clutch player defensively all-time?

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Lol yes we definitely need a time machine to answer the question of whether LeBron could effectively guard 2000 Shaq. Great point.

I"ve seen Rodman guard Shaq effectively, it's not like Dennis is way bigger than him. If he can then maybe LeBron got a chance ofcourse with the help of his squad but we'll never know. All I know is LeBron can guard 1-5 if necessary in his era, not just in regular season but in NBA Finals or elimination game in Olympics against the best player in the planet when he's almost 40.

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[og15]

You give Giannis the same supporting cast Lebron has had and I honestly think he wins just as many rings if not more.

Lebron is still the better overall player but the gap isnt as big as it would seem.

If anything, give Lebron Giannis' support cast and he would have stay in the Bucks and won 3+ championships.

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

Not trying to argue some amazing supporting casts for Giannis, but this just caught my eye because a consistent problem with us as NBA fans is that we too often break down supporting cast to second best player and don't remember that many times you can have a better supporting cast with a worse 2nd but better 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th.

You give Giannis the same supporting cast Lebron has had and I honestly think he wins just as many rings if not more.

Lebron is still the better overall player but the gap isnt as big as it would seem.

Giannis has lost to an 8th seed and that's atguxbly not his most embarrassing series loss against Jimmy butler's heat. Like he's obviously never beating the warriors and essentially no chance he beats the 2013 spurs. So basically even if he picked up the 2011 championship (again, he once lost to an 8th seed), he's still one behind.

The premise was Giannis having the same supporting cast as LeBron.

Supporting cast LeBron has had in his career: Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Luka, Ray Allen, and Shaq

Lol @ 37 year old ring chasing Shaq.

Ray Allen is great too, but the Heat had 37/38 year old Ray Allen, don't overshoot then make your argument worse.

[Mephariel]

You give Giannis the same supporting cast Lebron has had and I honestly think he wins just as many rings if not more.

Lebron is still the better overall player but the gap isnt as big as it would seem.

Giannis has lost to an 8th seed and that's atguxbly not his most embarrassing series loss against Jimmy butler's heat. Like he's obviously never beating the warriors and essentially no chance he beats the 2013 spurs. So basically even if he picked up the 2011 championship (again, he once lost to an 8th seed), he's still one behind.

The premise was Giannis having the same supporting cast as LeBron.

Supporting cast LeBron has had in his career: Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Luka, Ray Allen, and Shaq

Not all at the same time. Give Lebron Jrue Holiday and Middleton in his first 7 years in Cleveland, and he would have won multiple championships.

Lebron
Lopez
Middleton
Holiday

Is infinitely better than what Lebron had with Mo Williams and whoever.

[Tor_Raps]

Giannis has lost to an 8th seed and that's atguxbly not his most embarrassing series loss against Jimmy butler's heat. Like he's obviously never beating the warriors and essentially no chance he beats the 2013 spurs. So basically even if he picked up the 2011 championship (again, he once lost to an 8th seed), he's still one behind.

The premise was Giannis having the same supporting cast as LeBron.

Supporting cast LeBron has had in his career: Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Luka, Ray Allen, and Shaq

Not all at the same time. Give Lebron Jrue Holiday and Middleton in his first 7 years in Cleveland, and he would have won multiple championships.

Lebron
Lopez
Middleton
Holiday

Is infinitely better than what Lebron had with Mo Williams and whoever.

Why are you only using Lebron's first 7 years and ignoring when he became an official ring whore? How about using Giannis' first 7 years when Bledsoe was his 2nd/3rd best player lol.

Alsp, Lopez was a minimum player before he got to Giannis and Middleton couldnt stay healthy except the one year when they actually won a ring so not sure what youre trying to prove here...

[Mephariel]

The premise was Giannis having the same supporting cast as LeBron.

Supporting cast LeBron has had in his career: Wade, AD, Kyrie, Love, Bosh, Luka, Ray Allen, and Shaq

Not all at the same time. Give Lebron Jrue Holiday and Middleton in his first 7 years in Cleveland, and he would have won multiple championships.

Lebron
Lopez
Middleton
Holiday

Is infinitely better than what Lebron had with Mo Williams and whoever.

Why are you only using Lebron's first 7 years and ignoring when he became an official ring whore? How about using Giannis' first 7 years when Bledsoe was his 2nd/3rd best player lol.

Alsp, Lopez was a minimum player before he got to Giannis and Middleton couldnt stay healthy except the one year when they actually won a ring so not sure what youre trying to prove here...

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

[Tor_Raps]

Not all at the same time. Give Lebron Jrue Holiday and Middleton in his first 7 years in Cleveland, and he would have won multiple championships.

Lebron
Lopez
Middleton
Holiday

Is infinitely better than what Lebron had with Mo Williams and whoever.

Why are you only using Lebron's first 7 years and ignoring when he became an official ring whore? How about using Giannis' first 7 years when Bledsoe was his 2nd/3rd best player lol.

Alsp, Lopez was a minimum player before he got to Giannis and Middleton couldnt stay healthy except the one year when they actually won a ring so not sure what youre trying to prove here...

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

Let's not pretend like Lebron didnt have a superteam to beat the homegrown Warriors who lost their starting Center when up 3-1. And lets also pretend like Giannis didnt get hurt in Game 1 and missed most to an 8th seed that went to the finals.

Anyways, Lebron is no doubt better than Giannis. I just think Giannis would also have 4 rings if he went Lebron's route by going from superteam to superteam.

[dhsilv2]

Harden, CP3, and Westbrook never won a ring despite being teammates with tons of HoF players. Giannis has only had Khris and Jrue. For #2 options Middleton is one of the weakest to ever get it done. There’s maybe like 3 teams in the last 25 years with a comparable #2 option

There’s also no team that faced a weaker group of top level opponents so that factors in. The top 4 teams in no order would have probably been the lakers who got injured to lose to the suns, the clippers who lost kawhi but conveniently beat the jazz before the suns got to face them, the nuggets of jamaal was healthy, who the suns beat, and the nets who had 2 major injuries and the bucks still barely barely beat them.

A guy like hardens best teams had to beat the KD warriors and then almost did it before cp3 got hurt ( I guess cp3’s best team too) The warriors would have smoked the 2021 bucks.

And most of those guys didn’t have healthy hall of fame teammates or prime hall of fame teammates or had to beat the heatles or 73 win warriors (Westbrook with KD), teams that would easily beat the bucks. Having an injured guy cheer you on in street clothes doesn’t help much.

Harden has had better teammates than Giannis his entire career so does he have a built in excuse for every season?

Failed with Embiid who is arguably a better player than him

Failed with Durant and Westbrook

Failed with CP3

Failed with Durant and Kyrie

Where do the excuses stop for Harden?

'
Harden had prime years with Clint Capella and Eric Gordon as his two best teammates. Or worse PJ Tucker and and Gordon with Westbrook supposing to be that other guy lol.

And frankly Howard was cooked when he joined Harden. Paul was amazing for a year, and got hurt. And then Harden was injured on the nets and hasn't been the same since.

[dhsilv2]

What supporting cast? His best teammate has been Middleton.

That would be like Lebron 8th best player he's played with haha

Give prime LeBron a starting line-up of Middleton/Jrue/Lopez/Tucker and shooters like Portis/Donte/Forbes/Pat off the bench and see what happen.

You mean win a championship like Giannis did? LOL

The team was hurt every season after that...

Jrue was great. Lopez has been an elite defender with him. That's a really solid 3 man support for a star. Not saying others haven't been better. But that's pretty solid. Portis was another nice piece during that title run. You'll leave others to argue about PJ Tucker that year...was his defense that good? I'd lean no. And then DiVincenzo was solid too that year but hurt in the playoffs. All and all...pretty darn good group even if you don't see any one guy there as a star.

[Rdude22]

Giannis is in the Shaq tier... so whatever that means in relation to guys like Jordan and LeBron.

The idea that LeBron would take Giannis's supporting cast and do "better" (because of his '09 &'10 Cavs teams regular season records) is idiotic logic, since you have to look at the roster talent relative to their own damn era. aka The '09 and '10 Cavs were not seen as trash or lacking compared to the '09 Magic or geriatric '10 Celtics; in fact, they were betting favorites to win the East both years... but LeBron had weird moments in both series where he clammed up to the point where ppl tried to justify it in 2010 by saying a teammate slept with his mom.

Put that same LeBron on Giannis's Bucks teams facing better talent (Kawhi's Raptors, Butler's Heat, Celtics '22 Celtics) with an often injured Middleton and inconsistent Jrue Holiday (on the offensive end), a Lopez that couldn't move his feet on the perimeter, and all of a sudden LeBron gonna not clam up like he did vs the Celtics, or the Mavs, or in key positions early vs the Magic? Let's come back to reality.

Reality being, LeBron is an all-time great, but one who routinely stacked the deck to have the massive talent advantage because he clammed up when roster strength was equal or had the slight advantage over him.

[Mavrelous]

Giannis is in the Shaq tier... so whatever that means in relation to guys like Jordan and LeBron.

The idea that LeBron would take Giannis's supporting cast and do "better" (because of his '09 &'10 Cavs teams regular season records) is idiotic logic, since you have to look at the roster talent relative to their own damn era. aka The '09 and '10 Cavs were not seen as trash or lacking compared to the '09 Magic or geriatric '10 Celtics; in fact, they were betting favorites to win the East both years... but LeBron had weird moments in both series where he clammed up to the point where ppl tried to justify it in 2010 by saying a teammate slept with his mom.

Put that same LeBron on Giannis's Bucks teams facing better talent (Kawhi's Raptors, Butler's Heat, Celtics '22 Celtics) with an often injured Middleton and inconsistent Jrue Holiday (on the offensive end), a Lopez that couldn't move his feet on the perimeter, and all of a sudden LeBron gonna not clam up like he did vs the Celtics, or the Mavs, or in key positions early vs the Magic? Let's come back to reality.

Reality being, LeBron is an all-time great, but one who routinely stacked the deck to have the massive talent advantage because he clammed up when roster strength was equal or had the slight advantage over him.

Giannis is not in Shaq tier, he was never as dominant or as successful as Shaq if we account for PO also.
LeBron is on MJ/Kareem GOAT tier,
Then you have Duncan/Hakeem/Magic/Bird/Steph/Shaq/Kobe tier, Jokic is in between
Then you have the tier where Giannis belongs IMO, Dirk/KG/KD.

[Rdude22]

With Giannis,

He's like Shaq in the sense that absent of a top 5 player as his teammate, Shaq was routinely getting swept out the playoffs when the going got tough. 61-win Laker team in 1998, 3-all stars, and got smacked up 4-0 by Utah with Karl Malone giving Shaq a Hakeem-esque masterclass. Shaq was 25 then, and had no excuses. Or when Duncan got him up outta there the year after. But once Kobe became a top 5-7 level player, then a top 3-5, yea Shaq dominated. Was it fair that KG only had Troy Hudson or Duncan had a 19 year old 6'2 Frenchmen who couldn't jump, shoot, or benchpress 135? It is what it is.

My point is, give Giannis a Luka or an SGA as his "sidekick" and he probably 3-peats as well. Absent those type of players, and he has similar limitations as Shaq... still an all-time great but not necessarily who you want taking the last shot or facilitating the team in the clutch.

So does that make him in the same tier as LeBron? Well, depends on if Shaq is in the same tier as LeBron. Because whatever LeBron does through the first 3.5 quarters of a game... Giannis and Shaq gon equalize if not better him in points, rebounds, and attention by the defense. Same with Jokic. Same with Luka, same with SGA. Great players gon do great player things. Just comes down to do they get to have stacked super teams as well.

[Godymas]

Giannis, Jokic, Dirk, KD, KG etc

above these guys you have

Steph, Kobe, Duncan, Bird, Shaq etc

then you have the 3

Kareem, LeBron, Jordan

[Joao Saraiva]

LeBron is just better on offense. Creates a lot better his own shot, operates better in the perimeter, more versatile and a lot better playmaking wise.

On defense Bron was legit when he was younger, but no way he's above Giannis or at the same level. I'll give the edge to Giannis on this end, but it's not big enough to compensate.

1 tier below sounds reasonable. The gap in all time great value comes from longevity and more playoff success. Prime for prime I'll put Bron 1 tier above.

[Joao Saraiva]

Not all at the same time. Give Lebron Jrue Holiday and Middleton in his first 7 years in Cleveland, and he would have won multiple championships.

Lebron
Lopez
Middleton
Holiday

Is infinitely better than what Lebron had with Mo Williams and whoever.

Why are you only using Lebron's first 7 years and ignoring when he became an official ring whore? How about using Giannis' first 7 years when Bledsoe was his 2nd/3rd best player lol.

Alsp, Lopez was a minimum player before he got to Giannis and Middleton couldnt stay healthy except the one year when they actually won a ring so not sure what youre trying to prove here...

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

To be fair Giannis won a ring with Middleton as a 2nd banana. That is absolutely incredible. In many playoff runs Giannis has just been injured.

Their gap prime for prime is not that big, altough is goes James way. All time ranks yes success and lognevity make the gap bigger.

[The4thHorseman]

Why are you only using Lebron's first 7 years and ignoring when he became an official ring whore? How about using Giannis' first 7 years when Bledsoe was his 2nd/3rd best player lol.

Alsp, Lopez was a minimum player before he got to Giannis and Middleton couldnt stay healthy except the one year when they actually won a ring so not sure what youre trying to prove here...

As ring whore, Lebron beat a 73-9 Warriors team. I am not sure what you are trying to prove here. Here is reality:

Lebron has 4 rings.
Giannis has 1 ring.

Lebron beat a 73-9 team in the finals.
Giannis lost to a 8th seed.

Lebron is better than Giannis in nearly every aspect of basketball and is ahead in nearly every category. Those are facts.

Let's not pretend like Lebron didnt have a superteam to beat the homegrown Warriors who lost their starting Center when up 3-1. And lets also pretend like Giannis didnt get hurt in Game 1 and missed most to an 8th seed that went to the finals.

Anyways, Lebron is no doubt better than Giannis. I just think Giannis would also have 4 rings if he went Lebron's route by going from superteam to superteam.

Starting center Bogut avg. 13mins over the first 4gms.

[nikster]

Harden, CP3, and Westbrook never won a ring despite being teammates with tons of HoF players. Giannis has only had Khris and Jrue. For #2 options Middleton is one of the weakest to ever get it done. There’s maybe like 3 teams in the last 25 years with a comparable #2 option

There’s also no team that faced a weaker group of top level opponents so that factors in. The top 4 teams in no order would have probably been the lakers who got injured to lose to the suns, the clippers who lost kawhi but conveniently beat the jazz before the suns got to face them, the nuggets of jamaal was healthy, who the suns beat, and the nets who had 2 major injuries and the bucks still barely barely beat them.

A guy like hardens best teams had to beat the KD warriors and then almost did it before cp3 got hurt ( I guess cp3’s best team too) The warriors would have smoked the 2021 bucks.

And most of those guys didn’t have healthy hall of fame teammates or prime hall of fame teammates or had to beat the heatles or 73 win warriors (Westbrook with KD), teams that would easily beat the bucks. Having an injured guy cheer you on in street clothes doesn’t help much.

Harden has had better teammates than Giannis his entire career so does he have a built in excuse for every season?

Failed with Embiid who is arguably a better player than him

Failed with Durant and Westbrook

Failed with CP3

Failed with Durant and Kyrie

Where do the excuses stop for Harden?

He was nowhere near his prime his stints in OKC or in Philly.

He had a single post season with Durant and Kyrie, during which both Harden and Irving got injured (you should know, that's the only reason the Bucks beat them) . he had 2 seasons with CP3 during which he faced the KD warriors

Really not that complicated or long list of excuses