Stockton says LeBrons titles don’t have value

[michaelm]

Double

[michaelm]

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

I disagree with you and i assume your feeling is that no top 10 player helped the development of a young nba player…..Pippen was pretty raw when he came into the league. He didnt enter the nba as a star player, top 5 pick or not. Why do you think Seattle traded him?

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

What Jerry Krause is supposed to have said according to he himself anyway is that players alone don’t win titles btw. No doubt Krause and Phil Jackson were good at their jobs, but they did have Jordan to work with and build around. There is no way of knowing whether Pippen would have developed into the role he had next to Jordan had he been next to LeBron. Jordan accepted becoming less ball dominant for a start which was not his natural inclination, which I have not seen much sign of LeBron ever being inclined to do. LeBron’s teams were probably better with him being ball dominant, even with Wade next to him, in any case.

[DimesandKnicks]

I disagree with you and i assume your feeling is that no top 10 player helped the development of a young nba player…..Pippen was pretty raw when he came into the league. He didnt enter the nba as a star player, top 5 pick or not. Why do you think Seattle traded him?

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

What Jerry Krause is supposed to have said according to he himself anyway is that players alone don’t win titles btw. No doubt Krause and Phil Jackson were good at their jobs, but they did have Jordan to work with and build around. There is no way of knowing whether Pippen would have developed into the role he had next to Jordan had he been next to LeBron. Jordan accepted becoming less ball dominant for a start which was not his natural inclination, which I have not seen much sign of LeBron ever being inclined to do. LeBron’s teams were probably better with him being ball dominant, even with Wade next to him, in any case.

Maybe that's the question to you but I'm not sure why. Jordan got Grant and Pippen in year four. In year four Lebron lost to the Spurs in the finals. Imagine if he had Boozer who was a 20 and 10 player by then and average 15 and 11 his second year with Lebron, and Iguodala who was averging like 18 5 and 5 with the Sixers by that time. He might have won a championship.

When you in the middle of your prime, your suppose to be in win now mode, not rebuild mode. When you're developing, you build through the draft and let your prospects develop ala the baby thunder.

Joran retired at 35 because he wasn't interested in being a part of a rebuild - we know that. At 35 Lebron played with the Laker's prospects for a year and traded them for players that would ultimately win him a championship the next year. Was he suppose to wait for those players to develop? It's like you guys are literally asking him to be dumb and the organizations hes playing for to be dumb and take back moves that actually won him championships.

Irving was 22 when Lebron joined the Cav's but he was already an allstar. Were the Cav's and Lebron suppose to wait four years for Wiggin's to develop?

You can take the "Jordan letting teamates develop" route when the players your playing with are on the same time line.

[Nate505]

this thread is going wow

Stockton really struck a nerve with this one.

[Nate505]

Lebron's championships have more value than Stockton's combined assists and steals. Stockton got his steals from sneaking behind big men posting up. Stockton's assists were inflated from having him initiate everything all the time. Offenses will never run through a non scorer that way in the future.

I think most people believe championships have more value than all time records. It's why James is considered, at worst, a top 5 player of all time and Stockton, at worst, is considered a top 50 player of all time.

The steals point makes no sense to me though. If steals were that easy to get, everyone would have got a ton of them.

[Cavsfansince84]

this thread is going wow

Stockton really struck a nerve with this one.

Not as much as LeBron's winning has struck a nerve with Stockton and many others over the years. Especially after the 3-1 comeback over a 73 win team.

[SelfishPlayer]

Lebron's championships have more value than Stockton's combined assists and steals. Stockton got his steals from sneaking behind big men posting up. Stockton's assists were inflated from having him initiate everything all the time. Offenses will never run through a non scorer that way in the future.

I think most people believe championships have more value than all time records. It's why James is considered, at worst, a top 5 player of all time and Stockton, at worst, is considered a top 50 player of all time.

The steals point makes no sense to me though. If steals were that easy to get, everyone would have got a ton of them.

Not everyone had the freedom to break the team defensive scheme to sneak the ball away from posting big men.

[Biff]

So, it seems like Old Man Yelling at Clouds Stockton is coming on strong with the takes lately. He said this recently about the NBA:

"Things that I see, I do think it's soft, where you have guys that can take, like, twenty days off. What do they call it, load management? Can you imagine your dad coming, 'I'mma take a few weeks work off.' You know? Well, who is going to feed us then? These guys do it, and they are supposed to be examples and the league allows it,"

From what I've gathered from this thread, there have been 10-20 responses saying that Stockton's criticism of LeBron has no merit because he never won a title. Understandable, because in life criticism is only accepted from those who have been there before. Or so I hear.

Anyways, using that logic, we can conclude that this opinion has merit, right? Given Stockton was one of the toughest SOBs to ever play and was an absolute ironman in his career. Right? Or how does all this logic work?

No, that isn't it. When you're supposed to be one of the top 5 pg's of all time according to many people here and play with a top 5 pf of all time your entire career and then never win a ring but then go on to criticize a guy that has 4 rings and has been to the finals 10 times, it just makes you look like a salty bitter old man. Even had Stockton been able to win 1 ring, this would look like a salty take.

If it's so easy to get to the finals 10 times why hasn't anyone else chasing superteams been able to accomplish the same thing? KD been doing it his whole life and has 2 rings he got on a team that broke the wins record. Couldn't get to the finals 10 times though. Guess it's not as easy as old man Stockton thinks.

[OdomFan]

It’s not a problem but you’re arguing a point no one is really arguing against which is kind of moving the goal post. The argument being made was Grant was a more impactful third option. To your credit you did agree than moved the goal post to “yea he was drafted and developed with Pippen and Scotty” as if the context is a legitimate “but”.

It kind of just proves the bigger point some are making in this thread that some players were fortunate enough to have a contender built around them.

When the guy who was drafted an developed by and with the team left, the organization went out and got an over 30 year old PF to replace him and they won another three championships

Not disputing what you are saying but i would add that Jordan deserves some credit for helping Grant and Pippen develop into the players they became. The coaching staff and obviously the hard work put in by the players themselves accomplished this. But im sure Jordan pushing them in practice contributed to their overall growth. And it took a few years for them, especially Pippen, to develop into a star player.

In regards to Rodman, yea, it was a great move by Krause, but again, i dont know of any team at that time in which he would have had that kind of succes. Pop and Duncan couldnt wait for him to leave the organization. Jordan, along with Pippen and the coaching staff, deserve a lot of praise for maximizing his talent during that time in his life in his mid-30s.

Get's credit why? Was he on the training staff? Pippen was the 5th pick in the 87 draft and Grant was the 10th. The 5th pick is expected to be an all-star and by year two he demonstrated that he would fill out that roll. By year three he was an all-star. He developed as quickly as you'd expect a non S-tier player to develop. Pick ten should get you a starter and Grant demonstrated that immediately. Jordan also pushed Kwame Brown and he was a bust. You can't forge iron out of plastic.

Are you serious right now? Jordan was the team leader. every team ever has had a leader who not only does their part, but also helps with being vocal with the rest of the team in making sure everyone is on the same page. That's what Jordan did. He didn't have to be an employee on the training staff. Thats just common sense, or atleast it should be.

If you know anything about sports you should know that nothing is ever guaranteed when it comes to draft picks. We've seen plenty of number 1-5 overall picks not live up to the hype by now. Look at Manu Ginobli. Drafted 57th in the 2nd round of the 1999 draft. He's arguably better than many of those that were picked ahead of him in both rounds. Scottie Pippen may have had a solid college career showing potential in what the Bulls GM wanted to trade for him for to add to what they wanted the Bulls to become as a core, but it was pretty clear that he was no where close to the star he would become later on. He worked hard. Got physically stronger.

Michael Jordan did not make anyone, but he did in fact work with his guys and helped them develop. Himself, Pippen and Grant developed into one of the best trios in the NBA with hard work in those practices, and game to game. That's what its all about. That's what being a Leader of a team is.

[OdomFan]

No, my feeling is that Pippen would have been a great player regardless...which is why he was selected 5th. His draft stock sky rocketed after the PIT and Pre-draft where scouts saw his abilty to defend multpiple positions and play PG in pinches. Seatle traded him because they two forwards and a 6''7 guard averaging over 20 ppg. Why do you think Chicago felt the need to trade up to pick him?

Pippen was raw..just like the vast majority of players who enter the draft. His averages over his first two years were almost identical to Clyde Drexlers. I'm not sure why you keep bring up him being raw as some sort of smoking gun. And again, where weren't the other players mention by a previous poster developed as well as Jordan?

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

What Jerry Krause is supposed to have said according to he himself anyway is that players alone don’t win titles btw. No doubt Krause and Phil Jackson were good at their jobs, but they did have Jordan to work with and build around. There is no way of knowing whether Pippen would have developed into the role he had next to Jordan had he been next to LeBron. Jordan accepted becoming less ball dominant for a start which was not his natural inclination, which I have not seen much sign of LeBron ever being inclined to do. LeBron’s teams were probably better with him being ball dominant, even with Wade next to him, in any case.

Maybe that's the question to you but I'm not sure why. Jordan got Grant and Pippen in year four. In year four Lebron lost to the Spurs in the finals. Imagine if he had Boozer who was a 20 and 10 player by then and average 15 and 11 his second year with Lebron, and Iguodala who was averging like 18 5 and 5 with the Sixers by that time. He might have won a championship.

When you in the middle of your prime, your suppose to be in win now mode, not rebuild mode. When you're developing, you build through the draft and let your prospects develop ala the baby thunder.

Joran retired at 35 because he wasn't interested in being a part of a rebuild - we know that. At 35 Lebron played with the Laker's prospects for a year and traded them for players that would ultimately win him a championship the next year. Was he suppose to wait for those players to develop? It's like you guys are literally asking him to be dumb and the organizations hes playing for to be dumb and take back moves that actually won him championships.

Irving was 22 when Lebron joined the Cav's but he was already an allstar. Were the Cav's and Lebron suppose to wait four years for Wiggin's to develop?

You can take the "Jordan letting teamates develop" route when the players your playing with are on the same time line.

Andrew Wiggins was already pretty solid by year 2. I believe he would have did just fine in that line up with Kyrie and Lebron. Lebron just wanted another big 3. So he demanded another established star player, Kevin Love.

[BeatDaCavs420]

38 pages

Yep you can tell it's the off season lmao

[The High Cyde]

38 pages

Yep you can tell it's the off season lmao

Bron is if Obama wore that tan suit everyday lmao

[sashaturiaf]

https://www.si.com/nba/jazz/news/utah-jazz-legend-john-stockton-rips-load-management-modern-nba


Stockton just put today's load management nonsense on blast. He's right an awful lot these days.

Replace Adam Silver with Stockton as commissioner and I guarantee you you'll have a much better product. Unfortunately the owner I mean governors or whatever non offensive buzzword of the day is will never agree to it since they can't control Stockton

[DAWill1128]

I think what Stockton is trying to say is a lot of players are kinda soft, they skip town anytime they face a little adversity or difficulty. They constantly try to put themselves into the most stacked situations rather than working on themselves. The players they themselves never take blame, its always someone else that is preventing and holding them back.

Stockton played 19 years for the same organization trying to win them a title. Every year they went to the playoffs and every year they went back to work to try and finish the job. Stockton is maybe the most ride or die player of all-time for an NBA franchise.

[DimesandKnicks]

The question is not so much whether Jordan taught the likes of Pippen and Grant but whether they would have been drafted in the first place and given the time to develop, or Pippen given the role into which he developed, in the circumstances LeBron was in once he decided to go win now in 2010. I don’t disagree that LeBron never had the opportunity to choose Jordan’s path, but construction of his teams since then has involved win now players including trading a number 1 draft pick for same.

What Jerry Krause is supposed to have said according to he himself anyway is that players alone don’t win titles btw. No doubt Krause and Phil Jackson were good at their jobs, but they did have Jordan to work with and build around. There is no way of knowing whether Pippen would have developed into the role he had next to Jordan had he been next to LeBron. Jordan accepted becoming less ball dominant for a start which was not his natural inclination, which I have not seen much sign of LeBron ever being inclined to do. LeBron’s teams were probably better with him being ball dominant, even with Wade next to him, in any case.

Maybe that's the question to you but I'm not sure why. Jordan got Grant and Pippen in year four. In year four Lebron lost to the Spurs in the finals. Imagine if he had Boozer who was a 20 and 10 player by then and average 15 and 11 his second year with Lebron, and Iguodala who was averging like 18 5 and 5 with the Sixers by that time. He might have won a championship.

When you in the middle of your prime, your suppose to be in win now mode, not rebuild mode. When you're developing, you build through the draft and let your prospects develop ala the baby thunder.

Joran retired at 35 because he wasn't interested in being a part of a rebuild - we know that. At 35 Lebron played with the Laker's prospects for a year and traded them for players that would ultimately win him a championship the next year. Was he suppose to wait for those players to develop? It's like you guys are literally asking him to be dumb and the organizations hes playing for to be dumb and take back moves that actually won him championships.

Irving was 22 when Lebron joined the Cav's but he was already an allstar. Were the Cav's and Lebron suppose to wait four years for Wiggin's to develop?

You can take the "Jordan letting teamates develop" route when the players your playing with are on the same time line.

Andrew Wiggins was already pretty solid by year 2. I believe he would have did just fine in that line up with Kyrie and Lebron. Lebron just wanted another big 3. So he demanded another established star player, Kevin Love.

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

[michaelm]

Maybe that's the question to you but I'm not sure why. Jordan got Grant and Pippen in year four. In year four Lebron lost to the Spurs in the finals. Imagine if he had Boozer who was a 20 and 10 player by then and average 15 and 11 his second year with Lebron, and Iguodala who was averging like 18 5 and 5 with the Sixers by that time. He might have won a championship.

When you in the middle of your prime, your suppose to be in win now mode, not rebuild mode. When you're developing, you build through the draft and let your prospects develop ala the baby thunder.

Joran retired at 35 because he wasn't interested in being a part of a rebuild - we know that. At 35 Lebron played with the Laker's prospects for a year and traded them for players that would ultimately win him a championship the next year. Was he suppose to wait for those players to develop? It's like you guys are literally asking him to be dumb and the organizations hes playing for to be dumb and take back moves that actually won him championships.

Irving was 22 when Lebron joined the Cav's but he was already an allstar. Were the Cav's and Lebron suppose to wait four years for Wiggin's to develop?

You can take the "Jordan letting teamates develop" route when the players your playing with are on the same time line.

Andrew Wiggins was already pretty solid by year 2. I believe he would have did just fine in that line up with Kyrie and Lebron. Lebron just wanted another big 3. So he demanded another established star player, Kevin Love.

So again, if the "Big 3" was put together by management ya'll would be fine?

I believe he is saying you can’t have it both ways with which I agree. You contend Jordan was advantaged by the Bulls having a number 5 draft pick in Pippen who they could put next to Jordan, but LeBron pushed to trade a number 1 pick and could obviously have had the Cavs draft any other player in the draft that year. You also contend/complain that the player resulting from the trade in Love wasn’t as good next to LeBron as Grant was next to Jordan. You pay your money and you take your choice.

Obviously LeBron’s teams don’t win the 4 titles without him. You haven’t presented and can’t present any evidence that the Bulls would have won those titles without Jordan either though, or that Pippen or Grant would have been as good next to LeBron as they were next to Jordan for that matter.

I disagree with Stockton that LeBron’s titles are less worthy, but also with insinuations that the titles won by the Jordan Bulls, the only 6 titles ever won by the Bulls, should be downgraded because of ‘advantages’.

And why on earth should Jordan have kept going after the age of 35 in 1998 after the second of 2 threepeats which included a season which was and still is the best season any team has ever had ?. Should he have been concerned that some future player 22 years later might generate individual statistics by playing past the age of 35 without that player contending for titles himself ?.

[cornchip]

This thread got me thinking...prime Lebron and Malone would be one of the all-time duos.

Two highly skilled 6'9 athletic marvels. One has elite guard skills and the other with elite traditional big skills.

Lebron could shoot it well enough to provide Malone space in the post and Malone could shoot it well enough to have Lebron play 4 or 5 out. Ball screens would be deadly.

They would win at least 4 titles (Malone being much tougher, more durable than AD).

[G35]

"“I like where guys tighten their belt up and say…let’s go to work. We just got to get better. We got to play harder. We gotta play smarter, instead of just huh, where’s the grass greener? I’m gonna go there and win a championship. I think it devalues that. You’re not climbing the mountain, you’re taking a helicopter to the top.”"

Amen.......

[ball_takes23]

this thread is going wow

Stockton really struck a nerve with this one.

Not as much as LeBron's winning has struck a nerve with Stockton and many others over the years. Especially after the 3-1 comeback over a 73 win team.

the fact that you guys always come back to the Cleveland title pretty much proves Stockton's point.

[Cavsfansince84]

the fact that you guys always come back to the Cleveland title pretty much proves Stockton's point.

The fact that you have to lump people into 'you guys' shows that you have no real point to make. I said especially after 2016. This whole narrative is just nonsense and we went through it all in this thread enough already.