Is SGA already Top 5 PG of All Time?

[One_and_Done]

Top 3... Magic, Curry, Isiah.

Rest of the pack...

Stockton
SGA
Oscar
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Billups
Dennis Johnson
Lenny Wilkins
Bob Cousy
Rose
Westbrook

Does SGA's MVP and chip put him above the rest of the pack to #4 or #5 on the PG GOATs?

Isiah wouldn't rank top 10.

Top guys would be Magic and Curry. After that? It depends a little if Harden and Doncic types count, but pretty clear to me SGA is top 5. The only guys above that are as good as him are Magic, Curry, and maybe Nash. Chris Paul would be above him too.

Of course, this assumes SGA gets the longevity in.

[Cavsfansince84]

Career value is tougher, but ultimately, as a franchise, if I got 3 years of what SGA accomplished or 9 years of what Payton did, I'd take SGA's last 3 seasons, personally.

I don't think looking at it in terms of just rings makes sense here. He led Okc to a game 7 win over like a 45 win Indy team where their star player got hurt in the 1st quarter. Seattle took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games where if Payton was healthier they might even have won. I try to apply as much context as possible when I compare players. I would be curious how corp would look for both with fair grades.

[tsherkin]

I don't think looking at it in terms of just rings makes sense here. He led Okc to a game 7 win over like a 45 win Indy team where their star player got hurt in the 1st quarter. Seattle took the 72 win Bulls to 6 games where if Payton was healthier they might even have won. I try to apply as much context as possible when I compare players. I would be curious how corp would look.

I don't think Payton's health is the reason they lost that title. He did all right, he just wasn't a shooter. if Perkins hadn't sucked, then maybe, but I could equally say that if Scottie hadn't been a dog's breakfast as a scorer, that series would have been over even sooner, you know?

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't think Payton's health is the reason they lost that title. He did all right, he just wasn't a shooter. if Perkins hadn't sucked, then maybe, but I could equally say that if Scottie hadn't been a dog's breakfast as a scorer, that series would have been over even sooner, you know?

Still though, its the one finals where MJ looked pretty mortal if not downright bad. They were pretty lucky to win that one. They really won it with forcing turnovers and off rebounding. My larger point was simply that I would not simply look at both guys and say Shai 1 Gary 0 when judging their careers.

[tsherkin]

Still though, its the one finals where MJ looked pretty mortal if not downright bad.

He looked pretty mortal in all three Finals during the second three-peat.

I understand that actual career valuation is broader than just rings, I was speaking more from a personal standpoint. Given the choice between a 3-year run the way Shai's done it and a 9-year one the way Payton did it, I'd take Shai's run. As a fan. You can argue that value to franchise was higher because Payton gave them a healthy decade of reasonable to strong playoff performance, and then had the Finals appearance, and that makes any kind of sense, sure. But that wasn't really what my comment was designed for; I wasn't debating the point, just noting a personal preference.

[MrBigShot]

Peak Magic, Steph, Nash, CP3, and Luka if you consider him a PG are better in my opinion.

[tsherkin]

Peak Magic, Steph, Nash, CP3, and Luka if you consider him a PG are better in my opinion.

Luka's an interesting one. Definitely a better playmaker, but also looks like a worse scorer and defender, so it becomes an intriguing conversation. I think "Point Guard" has been an archaic label for some time, though, so questions like these become progressively more difficult over time, because the roles aren't really the same.

[jjgp111292]

I don't watch things nearly as closely as I used to but is Shai truly a PG? To my eyes he's more if a ball-dominant SG in both function and size, and the PG distinction seems arbitrary. So I dunno. I could be completely wrong and can be ignored.

But I guess due to the odd makeup of his team, he more or less functions as the PG. Damn near every rotation player is a shooting guard their damn selves One of the strangest rosters I've ever seen.

[Special_Puppy]

In terms of peak? I think you could argue that. In terms of overall career value of course not. I can see SGA getting there by the end of his career though

[Special_Puppy]

Why would Isiah rank 3rd there?

Isiah, the hardest road to an NBA championship ever... prime Jordan, prime Bird, prime Magic and he did it twice

1990 Pistons faced a -0.18 SRS Pacers team and a +0.78 SRS Knicks Team in the first and second round respectively. 1990 Bulls and Blazers were pretty typical conference finals and finals opponents. 1989 Pistons didn't play a particularly great team until the finals and course the Lakers don't even have their best player for half series.

[PistolPeteJR]

I don't watch things nearly as closely as I used to but is Shai truly a PG? To my eyes he's more if a ball-dominant SG in both function and size, and the PG distinction seems arbitrary. So I dunno. I could be completely wrong and can be ignored.

But I guess due to the odd makeup of his team, he more or less functions as the PG. Damn near every rotation player is a shooting guard their damn selves One of the strangest rosters I've ever seen.

I do agree with this. In the early and mid 00s, I fail to see how if he was with the Lakers instead of Kobe, Phil wouldn't use him the way he used Kobe. Not saying he's Kobe 2.0, just talking about style (eg. midrange, using his strength and footwork to create space, their passing and playmaking, etc.).

[iggymcfrack]

Top 3... Magic, Curry, Isiah.

Rest of the pack...

Stockton
SGA
Oscar
Kidd
Payton
Nash
Billups
Dennis Johnson
Lenny Wilkins
Bob Cousy
Rose
Westbrook

Does SGA's MVP and chip put him above the rest of the pack to #4 or #5 on the PG GOATs?

You really listed Dennis Johnson, Lenny Wilkens, and Derrick Rose, but not Chris Paul? God damn dude, that’s some ice cold disrespect. Anyway, I’d say SGA should probably already be ahead of Isiah, but he’s definitely at the very least behind:

Steph
CP3
Magic
Stockton
Oscar
West
Nash
Westbrook

That’s the top 8 PGs of all-time and he has no case over them yet for careers even if his peak stacks up with any of them. If you consider Harden a PG (I don’t), he’d be clearly ahead of SGA as well.

I’d say SGA should be in the next tier of PGs right now with Clyde Frazier and Jason Kidd. With one more season at his current level, he’ll probably move from the Frazier/Kidd tier to the Nash/Westbrook tier. He’s definitely an all-time talent.

[iggymcfrack]

I don't watch things nearly as closely as I used to but is Shai truly a PG? To my eyes he's more if a ball-dominant SG in both function and size, and the PG distinction seems arbitrary. So I dunno. I could be completely wrong and can be ignored.

But I guess due to the odd makeup of his team, he more or less functions as the PG. Damn near every rotation player is a shooting guard their damn selves One of the strangest rosters I've ever seen.

He brings the ball up and he was 14th in the league in assists last year. His backcourt mate JW has a similar profile in that he’s very good at both passing and scoring, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “JW is the PG for the Thunder and SGA is the SG”.

[tsherkin]

He brings the ball up and he was 14th in the league in assists last year. His backcourt mate JW has a similar profile in that he’s very good at both passing and scoring, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “JW is the PG for the Thunder and SGA is the SG”.

This boils down to the supposition that all teams have a PG, though, which is a bit of an archaic notion.

[falcolombardi]

I don't watch things nearly as closely as I used to but is Shai truly a PG? To my eyes he's more if a ball-dominant SG in both function and size, and the PG distinction seems arbitrary. So I dunno. I could be completely wrong and can be ignored.
But I guess due to the odd makeup of his team, he more or less functions as the PG. Damn near every rotation player is a shooting guard their damn selves One of the strangest rosters I've ever seen.

He is generally the main guy bringing the ball up and our first and main passer and playmaker

And yeah, we get away with a odd all guard/big without real forwards roster cause of how long armed our guards actually are lol

Jalen is like 6'5 but sturdy and has a center wewingspan, dort is like 6' 3and shai like 6'5 but both have 7 foot wingspans and caruso just finds ways of guarding every position

Kenrich williams in the 2nd unit is like our only real forward sizr wise

It explains how we broke the league in turnover generation speed + lenght

[tsherkin]

He is generally the main guy bringing the ball up and our first and main passer and playmaker

Who was the PG on the Chicago title teams?

It sure wasn't really Kerr or Paxson, you know what I mean? Scottie and Michael did the primary ball handling.

EDIT: My point is that some teams don't have a conventional PG. OKC looks more like those Bulls squads than Shai does like a traditional PG.

[Warspite]

He brings the ball up and he was 14th in the league in assists last year. His backcourt mate JW has a similar profile in that he’s very good at both passing and scoring, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “JW is the PG for the Thunder and SGA is the SG”.

This boils down to the supposition that all teams have a PG, though, which is a bit of an archaic notion.

I 100% agree with this. Just because you are the smallest player in the lineup doesnt make you a PG. Positionless basketball isnt just about forwards and Cs. I have always thought combo guards or SGs were better than a traditional PG/SG if they can manage the turnovers. The defensive length of a MJ/Harper is super valuable.

Maybe we need to think more about guards/wings/bigs and less about the 5 traditional positions on the court.

[tsherkin]

I 100% agree with this. Just because you are the smallest player in the lineup doesnt make you a PG. Positionless basketball isnt just about forwards and Cs. I have always thought combo guards or SGs were better than a traditional PG/SG if they can manage the turnovers. The defensive length of a MJ/Harper is super valuable.

Maybe we need to think more about guards/wings/bigs and less about the 5 traditional positions on the court.

Even guard vs wing is of some debate. I think maybe role-based labels would be the best way, even if you'd never get that into an ESPN box score, heh.

[SpreeS]

He is SG with playmaking duties. His playmaking skills are average at most.

[iggymcfrack]

He brings the ball up and he was 14th in the league in assists last year. His backcourt mate JW has a similar profile in that he’s very good at both passing and scoring, but I can’t imagine anyone saying “JW is the PG for the Thunder and SGA is the SG”.

This boils down to the supposition that all teams have a PG, though, which is a bit of an archaic notion.

So if the starting backcourt with the 14th and 34th assist per game leaders contains 2 shooting guards, how many starting backcourt contain 2 point guards?